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Author Topic: [IPVO] [Multiple Exchanges] Neo & Bee - LMB Holdings  (Read 657578 times)
apollojmr
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September 10, 2013, 01:41:29 AM
 #141

I for one am excited about this announcement. This could be a very good payout for early investors. I want to see a new alternative way for currency to exist.

What you think you become. Bitrated user: apollojmr.
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September 10, 2013, 06:25:20 AM
 #142

That is not the message we are putting across, we are giving our customers the ability to take control of their own money, they do not have to convert back to EUR to spend their money.

I was referring specifically to the message they'll get when looking at the security of their euro-denominated deposits.  I don't dispute there are benefits in other areas - but the most critical one with deposits of any kind is knowing that they won't vanish/devalue.

Let me also explain why having your own exchange-rate that lags behind the market won't work : as you don't appear to have grasped the problem.  I'll use an example of BTC halving vs Euro in a short time-frame : remember that on the recent bubble (and on previous ones) it actually fell by a lot more than 50%.

BTC has bubbled up nicely and your internal rate is at 200 euros per BTC (other exchange-rates have gone higher but you haven't caught up - which adds a seperate problem that I won't bother discussing).

BTC then crashes to 100 euros per BTC.

With your 30-day average your rate only drops to 190 euros per BTC (obviously your buy and sell spread are either side of that).

Problem is that you accept BTC deposits.  If your rate doesn't also drop to around 100 euros per BTC then people can:

Buy BTC elsewhere
Deposit them with you into a BTC-denominated account
Withdraw from that account in euros - either in cash if allowed or if not via purchasing with your cards.

There's plenty of ways to convert cash on a card into physical cash/cash in a bank account - most have costs associated with them but with an 80%+ profit margin those aren't going to be much of a barrier.  Most of your merchants are going to want euros not BTC so you''re left with the problem of internally valuing BTC at 190 but having to settle them when you can only get 100 for them on the open market.  And that cash isn't going to just cycle through once - anyone who spots the opportunity is going to shovel as much cash as they can through it.

And then when BTC finally rises back elsewhere, your rate is going to lag behind on the climb again - at which stage they can deposit the last batch of euros with you into a BTC-denominated account then withdraw the BTC as BTC.

There's no way around it unless you either:

a) Run a MASSIVE spread - which would discredit you immediately (can you even imagine the response if you gave one rate on deposit and a rate that was 50% worse on purchases?)
b) Disable transactions in one direction after large-scale currency moves - i.e. not just put your own head in the sand put force all your customers heads in there too.
c) Forget the stupid idea of having a pretend exchange-rate and stay fairly close to market rates.

Problem with c) is, of course, that you then need heavy-duty hedging in place.  And that costs a lot and isn't very easy to do - in part because noone else is doing it extensively so there's noone supplying the facility at reasonable rates and high volume.

I guess there's theoretically an option d) which is that you don't publish rates at all and people just have to accept whatever you give them - but that's like option a) just worse as far as credibility is concerned.

Now you can MAYBE bluff your way through with most people - but it doesn't need too many understanding the problem for there to be a run on euro withdrawals any time BTC falls significantly.  As if your disclosed strategies are no more than "we'll hedge but we haven't disclosed how and there's no provision in our accounts for any costs of hedging" then noone with any sense is going to leave euro-denominated deposits with you backed by BTC with a lower market value than the euros if they can just withdraw the euros into cash.  And even a small run on euro-withdrawals makes the situation much worse - as in the process of filling those you reduce the BTC/euro cover for the rest.

Your idea of time-locked deposits that pay a percentage of the increase in BTC's price is interesting on the face of it however:

1.  If you're guaranteeing no loss (or, worse, guaranteeing a minimum return) then it means you have to hedge even more efficiently (as by giving away part of the gain when it rises you have less surplus from that to hedge with against any fall).
2.  If losses are passed on then rather obviously they'd be better off just buying BTC themself and keeping ALL the gain and none of the CP risk.  Think even the really stupid ones would spot that.  As they can't spend it none of the other benefits apply to mitigate.

It also follows from 1. that if they get a percentage of gains then you must have a transparent means by which your rates are set based on third-party sources.  You can't be making them up yourself arbitrarily if you're paying variable interest on deposits based on those rates.  Which totally limits your flexibility in terms of the burying-head-in-sand strategy.

+1

Deprived has stated most of my concerns, thanks Smiley, hope we can get more detail on risk control
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September 10, 2013, 02:41:55 PM
 #143

One very easy question : what percentage of funds raised from share sales is going into the IPO?

It's not clear from the prospectus whether a fee has already been paid to TATI for underwriting/managing the IPO or whether some portion of funds raised is being taken.

Put simply, if 1000 BTC worth of share sales occurs how much gets added to the Book Value of the company?  It would be 1000 BTC if fees are already paid and a smaller amount if some percentage of sales were being taken.  If a fee was already paid and is deducted from the existing balance sheet then I don't see a need to disclose how much it was for - but any ongoing liability should be disclosed.
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September 10, 2013, 04:55:48 PM
 #144

good news
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September 10, 2013, 05:28:14 PM
 #145

Interview on Ed and Ethan's Daily Bitcoin Update

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September 10, 2013, 05:57:33 PM
 #146

That TAT XBOND (and you assume that everybody knows what are these obscurs bonds) is really fishy.
What's fishy about it? It's a loan, and you can redeem it in various ways - at a small loss for BTC or 1:1 for IPOs. Or it can be traded on the open market.

It pays a dividend too! I make 0.125 BTC a day off of it!
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September 10, 2013, 06:00:28 PM
 #147

It's funny the manner in which you see us:
It's stupid to buy at such a premium... except if you can use it to buy something cheaper anyway, which is the case NOW.
Let's say you buy XBOND at 0.011 instead of 0.01, you still get NEOBEE shares for less than 0.003. That's the point I was making.

But even the guy who bought at 0.0119 isn't going to profit much from this, that's why I said 0.0012 is the limit. Doing the math because people might not even bother.

Well, not only do you get a cheaper rate. You pretty much also have a guaranteed spot in the IPO. The public part of the IPO might sell out pretty quickly so that is a risk you are avoiding.
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September 10, 2013, 06:18:22 PM
 #148


Not the greatest interview (mostly due to technical issues) but overall promising that it's getting exposure.
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September 10, 2013, 06:34:57 PM
Last edit: September 11, 2013, 06:14:46 AM by cryptocyprus
 #149

One very easy question : what percentage of funds raised from share sales is going into the IPO?

It's not clear from the prospectus whether a fee has already been paid to TATI for underwriting/managing the IPO or whether some portion of funds raised is being taken.

Put simply, if 1000 BTC worth of share sales occurs how much gets added to the Book Value of the company?  It would be 1000 BTC if fees are already paid and a smaller amount if some percentage of sales were being taken.  If a fee was already paid and is deducted from the existing balance sheet then I don't see a need to disclose how much it was for - but any ongoing liability should be disclosed.

Any compensation negotiated between TATI and LMB Holdings has already been factored into our expenses.


Not the greatest interview (mostly due to technical issues) but overall promising that it's getting exposure.

One of the downsides of being up to 12 hours ahead of some parts of the world, is the lack of access to a studio, we have one planned for future recorded interviews.

If only we had a BTC timezone to operate within!


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September 10, 2013, 10:22:39 PM
 #150

The way i see it, the big potential here for investors and everyone else is not the increase in share price (in BTC).
Although there is potential for 10x or more from IPO price.

If NEOBEE and it's concept is a success, the big impact will be in the BTC/USD and BTC/EUR rates IMO.

-237-

Donatioins always welcome Wink
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LTC: LL2UDTbQNx9UiP37ZzJ4CLQDWm6JPgZG8t
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September 10, 2013, 10:23:44 PM
 #151

The way i see it, the big potential here for investors and everyone else is not the increase in share price (in BTC).
Although there is potential for 10x or more from IPO price.

If NEOBEE and it's concept is a success, the big impact will be in the BTC/USD and BTC/EUR rates IMO.

-237-

Exactly my thinking as well. This stands to benefit everyone.
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September 10, 2013, 10:30:13 PM
 #152

Darn youtube keeps crashing just posting a comment to say thanks for putting a video up
I will need to comment on it later Smiley

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September 10, 2013, 11:12:14 PM
 #153

It's funny the manner in which you see us:
It's stupid to buy at such a premium... except if you can use it to buy something cheaper anyway, which is the case NOW.
Let's say you buy XBOND at 0.011 instead of 0.01, you still get NEOBEE shares for less than 0.003. That's the point I was making.

But even the guy who bought at 0.0119 isn't going to profit much from this, that's why I said 0.0012 is the limit. Doing the math because people might not even bother.

Well, not only do you get a cheaper rate. You pretty much also have a guaranteed spot in the IPO. The public part of the IPO might sell out pretty quickly so that is a risk you are avoiding.

TAT or Cyprus correct me if I'm wrong, but you stated that people who get the .0025 price by purchasing through XBOND will not receive those shares until 3 days *after* the IPO, correct?
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September 10, 2013, 11:17:08 PM
 #154

It's funny the manner in which you see us:
It's stupid to buy at such a premium... except if you can use it to buy something cheaper anyway, which is the case NOW.
Let's say you buy XBOND at 0.011 instead of 0.01, you still get NEOBEE shares for less than 0.003. That's the point I was making.

But even the guy who bought at 0.0119 isn't going to profit much from this, that's why I said 0.0012 is the limit. Doing the math because people might not even bother.

Well, not only do you get a cheaper rate. You pretty much also have a guaranteed spot in the IPO. The public part of the IPO might sell out pretty quickly so that is a risk you are avoiding.

TAT or Cyprus correct me if I'm wrong, but you stated that people who get the .0025 price by purchasing through XBOND will not receive those shares until 3 days *after* the IPO, correct?

That is correct.
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September 10, 2013, 11:19:03 PM
 #155

Just a quick update that we've received confirmation of the ability to list NEOBEE on Havelock as well, fulfilling our plan to appear on BitFunder, BTCT, and Havelock.

We will now begin coordinating a schedule that works for all parties. Once that is pinned down we will announce the dates for the next phases.

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September 11, 2013, 06:27:27 AM
 #156

I watched the video and the first off Go for the Guinness Cypriots Cheesy
 
Onto questions from the video
What is the difference between say a bitcoin bank and a credit union.
Regarding the European Union is European law a bigger factor than Cyprus laws.

That said the collapse of the banking system does assure a great amount of adoption and I do hope to see this model emulated.

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cryptocyprus
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September 11, 2013, 06:52:50 AM
 #157

I watched the video and the first off Go for the Guinness Cypriots Cheesy
 
Onto questions from the video
What is the difference between say a bitcoin bank and a credit union.
Regarding the European Union is European law a bigger factor than Cyprus laws.

That said the collapse of the banking system does assure a great amount of adoption and I do hope to see this model emulated.

European Law does preside over Cypriot law, however there is only the European Court of Human Rights and the European Court of Justice, industry regulations are set at a local level.

A credit union is owned by its members thus making it different to what we are offering, some of the credit unions in Cyprus are also reported as to facing financial difficulties.


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freedomno1
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September 11, 2013, 06:56:29 AM
 #158

I watched the video and the first off Go for the Guinness Cypriots Cheesy
 
Onto questions from the video
What is the difference between say a bitcoin bank and a credit union.
Regarding the European Union is European law a bigger factor than Cyprus laws.

That said the collapse of the banking system does assure a great amount of adoption and I do hope to see this model emulated.

European Law does preside over Cypriot law, however there is only the European Court of Human Rights and the European Court of Justice, industry regulations are set at a local level.

A credit union is owned by its members thus making it different to what we are offering, some of the credit unions in Cyprus are also reported as to facing financial difficulties.

Thanks for the fast reply and that answered my questions Smiley

@ Snow Person Below

I want to know why not IPO on BF??

Just a quick update that we've received confirmation of the ability to list NEOBEE on Havelock as well, fulfilling our plan to appear on  BitFunder, BTCT, and Havelock.

We will now begin coordinating a schedule that works for all parties. Once that is pinned down we will announce the dates for the next phases.



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snowdropfore
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September 11, 2013, 06:57:00 AM
 #159

I want to know why not IPO on BF??

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Rannasha
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September 11, 2013, 06:57:51 AM
 #160

I want to know why not IPO on BF??

Try improving your reading comprehension skills.
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