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Author Topic: [IPVO] [Multiple Exchanges] Neo & Bee - LMB Holdings  (Read 658493 times)
cryptocyprus (OP)
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September 24, 2013, 02:43:23 PM
 #781

No VCs please.

Aren't we all VCs? We are investing our capital into the start up of this venture.

And probably more of a hassle than that of a traditional VC as well.


It should be!

Only more hassle because the majority of those already within the Bitcoin community care more about Bitcoin itself and its potential on so many different levels.

I wouldn't want that to change either.

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September 24, 2013, 06:11:48 PM
 #782

It should be!

Only more hassle because the majority of those already within the Bitcoin community care more about Bitcoin itself and its potential on so many different levels.

I wouldn't want that to change either.

Pretty good point. There are a lot of antics in the bitcoin space that traditional VCs likely wouldn't stand for. Not that I see N&B echoing these, but it's nice when your investors both understand and care about the pursuit on a personal level. At least for me, it isn't solely about making money. I'd like to see bitcoin succeed because it stands to help the global population.
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September 25, 2013, 12:17:05 PM
 #783

Danny is now in Amsterdam ready for the bitcoin conference.
TAT any update on the transfer progress? I would love to have my shares back BEFORE Danny's speech! Wink
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September 25, 2013, 12:27:49 PM
 #784

Danny is now in Amsterdam ready for the bitcoin conference.
TAT any update on the transfer progress? I would love to have my shares back BEFORE Danny's speech! Wink

+1
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September 25, 2013, 01:36:52 PM
 #785

 Smiley
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September 25, 2013, 01:42:43 PM
 #786

anyone know if havelock have resumed trading?
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September 25, 2013, 02:54:32 PM
 #787

Any updates on share transfers?  Still have yet to receive mine at my havelock account

Growth-O-Matic Grow your business, and increase brand awareness | While everyone else delivers your news to the wire, hoping it gets picked up, we put your press release in front of the eyes of the top bloggers, writers, and decision makers in your industry.
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September 25, 2013, 02:59:43 PM
 #788

Any updates on share transfers?  Still have yet to receive mine at my havelock account

Me too.

Behold the Tangle Mysteries! Dare to know It's truth.

- Excerpt from the IOTA Sacred Texts Vol. I
cryptocyprus (OP)
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September 25, 2013, 04:10:53 PM
 #789

I am just awaiting an update from TAT in relation to the transfers from BTCT.

Once he is online, I shall be in a position to give more information.

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ThickAsThieves
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September 25, 2013, 05:08:24 PM
 #790

I am just awaiting an update from TAT in relation to the transfers from BTCT.

Once he is online, I shall be in a position to give more information.

It might be a bit early to give an estimate on when transfers will be done. There are easily 500+ requests so far, all of which must be parsed and verified. The parsing has started. I'll give more updates as I can.
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September 26, 2013, 12:47:02 AM
 #791

I'm trying to figure out what portion of the 9.6M public shares remain unsold. I've seen people periodically provide this info, but I'm not exactly sure where they're getting figures.

I see BTCT has ~500k shares outstanding and I see Bitfunder was issued 5M shares with ~1.7M still at IPVO price. Havelock appears to have ~225k shares outstanding. I'm not sure how the migration from BTCT to Bitfunder/Havelock is affecting finding this info, so if someone could explain how to figure this out, I'd appreciate it.
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September 26, 2013, 11:22:42 AM
 #792

That is not the message we are putting across, we are giving our customers the ability to take control of their own money, they do not have to convert back to EUR to spend their money.

I was referring specifically to the message they'll get when looking at the security of their euro-denominated deposits.  I don't dispute there are benefits in other areas - but the most critical one with deposits of any kind is knowing that they won't vanish/devalue.

Let me also explain why having your own exchange-rate that lags behind the market won't work : as you don't appear to have grasped the problem.  I'll use an example of BTC halving vs Euro in a short time-frame : remember that on the recent bubble (and on previous ones) it actually fell by a lot more than 50%.

BTC has bubbled up nicely and your internal rate is at 200 euros per BTC (other exchange-rates have gone higher but you haven't caught up - which adds a seperate problem that I won't bother discussing).

BTC then crashes to 100 euros per BTC.

With your 30-day average your rate only drops to 190 euros per BTC (obviously your buy and sell spread are either side of that).

Problem is that you accept BTC deposits.  If your rate doesn't also drop to around 100 euros per BTC then people can:

Buy BTC elsewhere
Deposit them with you into a BTC-denominated account
Withdraw from that account in euros - either in cash if allowed or if not via purchasing with your cards.

There's plenty of ways to convert cash on a card into physical cash/cash in a bank account - most have costs associated with them but with an 80%+ profit margin those aren't going to be much of a barrier.  Most of your merchants are going to want euros not BTC so you''re left with the problem of internally valuing BTC at 190 but having to settle them when you can only get 100 for them on the open market.  And that cash isn't going to just cycle through once - anyone who spots the opportunity is going to shovel as much cash as they can through it.

And then when BTC finally rises back elsewhere, your rate is going to lag behind on the climb again - at which stage they can deposit the last batch of euros with you into a BTC-denominated account then withdraw the BTC as BTC.

There's no way around it unless you either:

a) Run a MASSIVE spread - which would discredit you immediately (can you even imagine the response if you gave one rate on deposit and a rate that was 50% worse on purchases?)
b) Disable transactions in one direction after large-scale currency moves - i.e. not just put your own head in the sand put force all your customers heads in there too.
c) Forget the stupid idea of having a pretend exchange-rate and stay fairly close to market rates.

Problem with c) is, of course, that you then need heavy-duty hedging in place.  And that costs a lot and isn't very easy to do - in part because noone else is doing it extensively so there's noone supplying the facility at reasonable rates and high volume.

I guess there's theoretically an option d) which is that you don't publish rates at all and people just have to accept whatever you give them - but that's like option a) just worse as far as credibility is concerned.

Now you can MAYBE bluff your way through with most people - but it doesn't need too many understanding the problem for there to be a run on euro withdrawals any time BTC falls significantly.  As if your disclosed strategies are no more than "we'll hedge but we haven't disclosed how and there's no provision in our accounts for any costs of hedging" then noone with any sense is going to leave euro-denominated deposits with you backed by BTC with a lower market value than the euros if they can just withdraw the euros into cash.  And even a small run on euro-withdrawals makes the situation much worse - as in the process of filling those you reduce the BTC/euro cover for the rest.

Your idea of time-locked deposits that pay a percentage of the increase in BTC's price is interesting on the face of it however:

1.  If you're guaranteeing no loss (or, worse, guaranteeing a minimum return) then it means you have to hedge even more efficiently (as by giving away part of the gain when it rises you have less surplus from that to hedge with against any fall).
2.  If losses are passed on then rather obviously they'd be better off just buying BTC themself and keeping ALL the gain and none of the CP risk.  Think even the really stupid ones would spot that.  As they can't spend it none of the other benefits apply to mitigate.

It also follows from 1. that if they get a percentage of gains then you must have a transparent means by which your rates are set based on third-party sources.  You can't be making them up yourself arbitrarily if you're paying variable interest on deposits based on those rates.  Which totally limits your flexibility in terms of the burying-head-in-sand strategy.

+1

Deprived has stated most of my concerns, thanks Smiley, hope we can get more detail on risk control
+1
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September 26, 2013, 04:03:13 PM
 #793

That is not the message we are putting across, we are giving our customers the ability to take control of their own money, they do not have to convert back to EUR to spend their money.

I was referring specifically to the message they'll get when looking at the security of their euro-denominated deposits.  I don't dispute there are benefits in other areas - but the most critical one with deposits of any kind is knowing that they won't vanish/devalue.

Let me also explain why having your own exchange-rate that lags behind the market won't work : as you don't appear to have grasped the problem.  I'll use an example of BTC halving vs Euro in a short time-frame : remember that on the recent bubble (and on previous ones) it actually fell by a lot more than 50%.

BTC has bubbled up nicely and your internal rate is at 200 euros per BTC (other exchange-rates have gone higher but you haven't caught up - which adds a seperate problem that I won't bother discussing).

BTC then crashes to 100 euros per BTC.

With your 30-day average your rate only drops to 190 euros per BTC (obviously your buy and sell spread are either side of that).

Problem is that you accept BTC deposits.  If your rate doesn't also drop to around 100 euros per BTC then people can:

Buy BTC elsewhere
Deposit them with you into a BTC-denominated account
Withdraw from that account in euros - either in cash if allowed or if not via purchasing with your cards.

There's plenty of ways to convert cash on a card into physical cash/cash in a bank account - most have costs associated with them but with an 80%+ profit margin those aren't going to be much of a barrier.  Most of your merchants are going to want euros not BTC so you''re left with the problem of internally valuing BTC at 190 but having to settle them when you can only get 100 for them on the open market.  And that cash isn't going to just cycle through once - anyone who spots the opportunity is going to shovel as much cash as they can through it.

And then when BTC finally rises back elsewhere, your rate is going to lag behind on the climb again - at which stage they can deposit the last batch of euros with you into a BTC-denominated account then withdraw the BTC as BTC.

There's no way around it unless you either:

a) Run a MASSIVE spread - which would discredit you immediately (can you even imagine the response if you gave one rate on deposit and a rate that was 50% worse on purchases?)
b) Disable transactions in one direction after large-scale currency moves - i.e. not just put your own head in the sand put force all your customers heads in there too.
c) Forget the stupid idea of having a pretend exchange-rate and stay fairly close to market rates.

Problem with c) is, of course, that you then need heavy-duty hedging in place.  And that costs a lot and isn't very easy to do - in part because noone else is doing it extensively so there's noone supplying the facility at reasonable rates and high volume.

I guess there's theoretically an option d) which is that you don't publish rates at all and people just have to accept whatever you give them - but that's like option a) just worse as far as credibility is concerned.

Now you can MAYBE bluff your way through with most people - but it doesn't need too many understanding the problem for there to be a run on euro withdrawals any time BTC falls significantly.  As if your disclosed strategies are no more than "we'll hedge but we haven't disclosed how and there's no provision in our accounts for any costs of hedging" then noone with any sense is going to leave euro-denominated deposits with you backed by BTC with a lower market value than the euros if they can just withdraw the euros into cash.  And even a small run on euro-withdrawals makes the situation much worse - as in the process of filling those you reduce the BTC/euro cover for the rest.

Your idea of time-locked deposits that pay a percentage of the increase in BTC's price is interesting on the face of it however:

1.  If you're guaranteeing no loss (or, worse, guaranteeing a minimum return) then it means you have to hedge even more efficiently (as by giving away part of the gain when it rises you have less surplus from that to hedge with against any fall).
2.  If losses are passed on then rather obviously they'd be better off just buying BTC themself and keeping ALL the gain and none of the CP risk.  Think even the really stupid ones would spot that.  As they can't spend it none of the other benefits apply to mitigate.

It also follows from 1. that if they get a percentage of gains then you must have a transparent means by which your rates are set based on third-party sources.  You can't be making them up yourself arbitrarily if you're paying variable interest on deposits based on those rates.  Which totally limits your flexibility in terms of the burying-head-in-sand strategy.

+1

Deprived has stated most of my concerns, thanks Smiley, hope we can get more detail on risk control
+1


What is very clear is that no-one in this project has any experience or understanding of financial risks, liquidity or balance sheets inside banking/financial institutions. The idea of a Bitcoin bank sounds good, but the Euro peg simply does not work and is A HUGE FAIL. If it carries on as is, this company will explode at some point.

You simply cannot have all your assets in one currency (Bitcoin) and 98% of liabilities in another (Euros).

No properly regulated bank or financial institution would or could be allowed to do this, for very sound reasons, but of course this is Bitcoin so normal rules don't apply etc
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September 26, 2013, 04:09:21 PM
 #794

but the Euro peg simply does not work and is A HUGE FAIL. If it carries on as is, this company will explode at some point.

You mind backing up such a claim with any shred of evidence or explanation? Saying it simply "does not work" and leaving it at that is a terrible argument.
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September 26, 2013, 04:13:33 PM
 #795

but the Euro peg simply does not work and is A HUGE FAIL. If it carries on as is, this company will explode at some point.

You mind backing up such a claim with any shred of evidence or explanation? Saying it simply "does not work" and leaving it at that is a terrible argument.

There is not enough money for it to work. And if it were, we would experience huge inflation
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September 26, 2013, 04:28:05 PM
 #796

There is not enough money for it to work. And if it were, we would experience huge inflation

Man alive, debate is not a strong suit around these parts...

Can you elaborate? How do you know the amount of money that's required for such a pursuit to work? What are you using to inform the statement about huge inflation?

I'm seeing a lot of statements made with literally nothing backing them. It's as bad as stating the positive (it will work) with no substantiation.

Stelios
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September 26, 2013, 04:39:44 PM
 #797

There is not enough money for it to work. And if it were, we would experience huge inflation

Man alive, debate is not a strong suit around these parts...

Can you elaborate? How do you know the amount of money that's required for such a pursuit to work? What are you using to inform the statement about huge inflation?

I'm seeing a lot of statements made with literally nothing backing them. It's as bad as stating the positive (it will work) with no substantiation.



+1,

I am all for open debate man but I am missing the math behind your statements 
JimiQ84
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September 26, 2013, 04:47:39 PM
 #798

There is not enough money for it to work. And if it were, we would experience huge inflation

Man alive, debate is not a strong suit around these parts...

Can you elaborate? How do you know the amount of money that's required for such a pursuit to work? What are you using to inform the statement about huge inflation?

I'm seeing a lot of statements made with literally nothing backing them. It's as bad as stating the positive (it will work) with no substantiation.



You know that whole point of insurance business is that insurance payment to everyone involved at one time will never happen? Currently this is no longer 100% sure. It is more likely that banking systems of PIIGS countries will fall like dominoes in a few months/years and other EU banking system will follow due to complexity of the Union. I would recomend some videos of Nigel Farage talking in European Parliament.
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September 26, 2013, 05:01:47 PM
 #799

You know that whole point of insurance business is that insurance payment to everyone involved at one time will never happen? Currently this is no longer 100% sure. It is more likely that banking systems of PIIGS countries will fall like dominoes in a few months/years and other EU banking system will follow due to complexity of the Union. I would recomend some videos of Nigel Farage talking in European Parliament.

What makes you think Neo is an insurance company?
JimiQ84
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September 26, 2013, 05:12:16 PM
 #800

You know that whole point of insurance business is that insurance payment to everyone involved at one time will never happen? Currently this is no longer 100% sure. It is more likely that banking systems of PIIGS countries will fall like dominoes in a few months/years and other EU banking system will follow due to complexity of the Union. I would recomend some videos of Nigel Farage talking in European Parliament.

What makes you think Neo is an insurance company?

Oh, I am deeply sorry, it looks like I am talking about something completely different than the rest of us. I didn't catch up completely to recent discussion and was talking about european deposit insurance (which is for persons up to 100k €). Again, I am sorry, don't pay any attention to me. Thanks.
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