Religion is a plague

[myrkul]

Platypus is purposefully and elegantly designed for life in the water:

Congratulations, you are officially the first person EVER to use the words 'Platypus' and 'elegant' in the same sentence.

I think platypus is cute.

But more to the point: you ignored the post and chose to twist the meaning.

It's superbly adapted to its ecological niche. It's just ugly as sin.

I find it more telling that you completely ignored the 'breathing hole same as the drinking hole' and 'testicles danging unprotected' points, and instead, focused on the point you could refute, 'platypus is ugly'.

How does evolution adapt? Magic? Where is evolution? What is the source? If it is non-physical, how does it impact physical matter?

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Natural_selection

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[josell]

More evidence? Japan younth is interested in technology, but not in science. However, in practice, Japaese are atheists.

Um, is Technology to Science as Macroevolution to Microevolution? What's the difference?

I think that you can be a genious in thechnology, but an ignorant in elemental science.

[evolve]

How does evolution adapt? Magic? Where is evolution? What is the source? If it is non-physical, how does it impact physical matter?

So, you say evolution is made up and is not fact, and then point out that you don't even understand what it is or how it works? Oooookay then.

Any scientist worth a can of beans will tell you, that yes, evolution is not fact, but theory.

I am asking these questions because no one can answer them, much less you.

scientific theory is not the same thing as a hypothesis.

evolutionary theory is like gravitational theory or cell theory or any other scientific theory; it is the testable conclusion reached based on empirical evidence and stands until disproven.

there is a mountain of empirical evidence that shows evolution to be true, including being directly observed in a lab environment. theres nothing philisophical about that. we know evolution is real the same way we know gravity, electromagnetism, or anything else is real....by testing, countertesting, and observation.

[foggyb]

It's superbly adapted to its ecological niche. It's just ugly as sin.

Ok lets see...platypus dives and its eyes, nose, and ears fill with water and it drowns.
It also can't find food without the eletro-detection beak. So it starves too. Now its really dead.

What came first, the platypus' beak, or the electro-detection wiring? I am really curious how you think an electrical pathway can be wired into the brain after the beak structure is already there. Do you think electricians go into finished houses and wire them for lights and AC outlets? Please don't say the neural circuitry was pre-wired "by accident", or out of evolution's magical foresight.

Give me a rundown of how science says evolution built a platypus beak. This should be very easy, since evolution is "observable and provable".

[Rassah]

Ok lets see...platypus dives and its eyes, nose, and ears fill with water and it drowns.
It also can't find food without the eletro-detection beak. So it starves too. Now its really dead.

What came first, the platypus' beak, or the electro-detection wiring?

Neither. Evolution is gradual, not instant.

I am really curious how you think an electrical pathway can be wired into the brain after the beak structure is already there. Do you think electricians go into finished houses and wire them for lights and AC outlets? Please don't say the neural circuitry was pre-wired "by accident", or out of evolution's magical foresight.

Give me a rundown of how science says evolution built a platypus beak. This should be very easy, since evolution is "observable and provable".

I would guess that platipy lived on land, and couldn't dive, instead using their beaks to snatch things out from under water. Eventually one of them was able to at least somewhat close it's nostrils. That one had lots of sex, and a group came out that could close their nostrils more than another group. The group that was able to close their nostrils caught more things, and outlived the group that couldn't (natural selection). By this process, ones that could close their nostrils best kept out-eating, out-living, and out-sexing ones that couldn't. By that same process, one of those nostril-closing freaks had a more sensitive nose to things swimming in the water. That sensitivity may have been while they were wading around on the surface, with their beaks submerged, or once they started diving. The evolution of the electro-deception could easily have developed in parallel with the nostril closing, and just ended up being really convenient for when they started diving, since not needing to keep your eyes open means you get fewer injuries. Plus ponds aren't exactly clear and easy to see in.
There's your answer to which came first.

[evolve]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080507131453.htm

talks about our modern understanding of the platypus' evolution based on its DNA

[myrkul]

I find it more telling that you completely ignored the 'breathing hole same as the drinking hole' and 'testicles danging unprotected' points, and instead, focused on the point you could refute, 'platypus is ugly'.

How does evolution adapt? Magic? Where is evolution? What is the source? If it is non-physical, how does it impact physical matter?

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Natural_selection

Quoted because you ignored it again.

[Rassah]

Any scientist worth a can of beans will tell you, that yes, evolution is not fact, but theory.

I am asking these questions because no one can answer them, much less you.

Please let me know which one of these is not a fact:

1) when two groups exist in the same place, the stronger group can dominate the weaker
2) living things have lots and lots of sex
3) genes, which store blueprints for life's design, exist
4) genes store all the code of the living thing's predecessors
5) genes divide and recombine when things have sex and make babies
6) accidents happen
7) environments change
groups of living things can become separated in the environment, either due to nature (flood-> new river/island) or by their own choice (migration)
9) there are obvious similarities on both macro and micro biological species, found in both concurrent living ones and in ancestral lines

The theory that explains all those things is evolution. Feel free to come up with a better theory, as long as it's supportable by facts and includes all of them

[gazd3k]

Just remember that we all begin as 1 cell so small you can't even see it with your eyes.

We didn't just pop into existence as adults though given enough time that will happen, as a platypus perhaps.

[foggyb]

Neither. Evolution is gradual, not instant.

That breaks the laws of entropy. In one of your earlier points, LeFBI said we almost lost the cecum because we heat our meals. Unused or undeveloped features will tend to die off, not develop into new features.

The entire building instructions for a platypus are encoded in all its cell DNA. DNA is self-correcting (3 out of 4 bits), any errors that are introduced are discarded by the self-replicating code. No new instructions can be added through random chance. Disprove that, if you can. Any genetic traits that appear later, were pre-existing but not active.

I would guess that platipy lived on land, and couldn't dive, instead using their beaks to snatch things out from under water.

Sounds like a good way to starve to death fast. Not really a land animal. Sucks at swimming. The platypus needs to eat about 20% of its own weight each day. This requires the platypus to spend an average of 12 hours each day looking for food.

....Eventually one of them was able to...
 a group came out......one of those nostril-closing freaks had..........The evolution of the electro-deception could easily have developed.........

Yup. Magic. There's no science here.

[myrkul]

The entire building instructions for a platypus are encoded in all its cell DNA. DNA is self-correcting (3 out of 4 bits), any errors that are introduced are discarded by the self-replicating code. No new instructions can be added through random chance. Disprove that, if you can. Any genetic traits that appear later, were pre-existing but not active.

WRONG, wrong, wrongedy-wrong.

Mutations are adding instructions to DNA all the time. Some of them are beneficial, and add to the creature's survivability. Others are detrimental, and reduce it. Some are flat out lethal, and the organism dies before spreading that mutation.

[foggyb]

The entire building instructions for a platypus are encoded in all its cell DNA. DNA is self-correcting (3 out of 4 bits), any errors that are introduced are discarded by the self-replicating code. No new instructions can be added through random chance. Disprove that, if you can. Any genetic traits that appear later, were pre-existing but not active.

WRONG, wrong, wrongedy-wrong.

Mutations are adding instructions to DNA all the time. Some of them are beneficial, and add to the creature's survivability. Others are detrimental, and reduce it. Some are flat out lethal, and the organism dies before spreading that mutation.

How can new data be appended to a self-correcting code?

[myrkul]

The entire building instructions for a platypus are encoded in all its cell DNA. DNA is self-correcting (3 out of 4 bits), any errors that are introduced are discarded by the self-replicating code. No new instructions can be added through random chance. Disprove that, if you can. Any genetic traits that appear later, were pre-existing but not active.

WRONG, wrong, wrongedy-wrong.

Mutations are adding instructions to DNA all the time. Some of them are beneficial, and add to the creature's survivability. Others are detrimental, and reduce it. Some are flat out lethal, and the organism dies before spreading that mutation.

How can new data be appended to a self-correcting code?

Despite your vaunted faith in the self-correction capabilities of DNA, it still fucks up, as evinced by the numerous genetic disorders that plague humanity.

[foggyb]

Despite your vaunted faith in the self-correction capabilities of DNA, it still fucks up, as evinced by the numerous genetic disorders that plague humanity.

Faith? You must be joking. Your body produces 10 trillion copies of your DNA daily just counting white blood cells. That replication code has to be friggin airtight.

Genetic disorders are the result of lost/scrambled information. That is not new information, its new garbage. Information comes only from intelligence. Randomness it the total absence of information.

[evolve]

information certainly can be added during a mutation...

chromosomes may be added (such as in the case of down syndrome)
dna sequences may be added (over-replicate) or may be missing (dna insertion and deletion) 
dna sequences can arrange differently than they normally do (expression)
or there may be simple errors at single/multiple points of the sequence (point/frame shift)

any of these occurring in an organism can make drastic changes (but not necessarily so). some of these changes may be beneficial, some detrimental, some neutral. how these changes affect the organisms ability to survive and reproduce determines whether the mutation will be passed on.

this is how the process begins. a simple mutation. the mutation gets passed down to subsequent generations. in one of these subsequent generations, another organism or two has a mutation.....if that mutation allows it to eat and reproduce succesfully, then the process continues......this happening over and over again, for millions of years, will give you an extremely diverse gene pool (one in which the organisms look, act, and function differently, though they are all made of the same fundamental building blocks).   

this is the driving force behind evolution.

 

[myrkul]

Despite your vaunted faith in the self-correction capabilities of DNA, it still fucks up, as evinced by the numerous genetic disorders that plague humanity.

Faith? You must be joking. Your body produces 10 trillion copies of your DNA daily just counting white blood cells. That replication code has to be friggin airtight.

Genetic disorders are the result of lost/scrambled information. That is not new information, its new garbage. Information comes only from intelligence. Randomness it the total absence of information.

And when it's not 'friggin airtight' we get cancer. Or a mutation.

And sometimes, that 'new garbage' turns out to be helpful.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

I find it more telling that you completely ignored the 'breathing hole same as the drinking hole' and 'testicles danging unprotected' points, and instead, focused on the point you could refute, 'platypus is ugly'.

How does evolution adapt? Magic? Where is evolution? What is the source? If it is non-physical, how does it impact physical matter?

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Natural_selection

Quoted because you ignored it again.

Quoted because you ignored it yet again.

[GideonGono]

The entire building instructions for a platypus are encoded in all its cell DNA. DNA is self-correcting (3 out of 4 bits), any errors that are introduced are discarded by the self-replicating code. No new instructions can be added through random chance. Disprove that, if you can. Any genetic traits that appear later, were pre-existing but not active.

WRONG, wrong, wrongedy-wrong.

Mutations are adding instructions to DNA all the time. Some of them are beneficial, and add to the creature's survivability. Others are detrimental, and reduce it. Some are flat out lethal, and the organism dies before spreading that mutation.

How can new data be appended to a self-correcting code?

Because the self-correcting code is NOT perfect. It regularly makes mistakes.

So according to your logic, it should be impossible for diseases and viruses such as H1N1 to jump species.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H1N1

[Rassah]

That breaks the laws of entropy. In one of your earlier points, LeFBI said we almost lost the cecum because we heat our meals. Unused or undeveloped features will tend to die off, not develop into new features.

The entire building instructions for a platypus are encoded in all its cell DNA. DNA is self-correcting (3 out of 4 bits), any errors that are introduced are discarded by the self-replicating code. No new instructions can be added through random chance. Disprove that, if you can. Any genetic traits that appear later, were pre-existing but not active.

Well, first of all, entropy applies more to physics than evolution, and second, entropy exists in an enclosed space with no outside influences, such as a sources of energy. Earth does not exist in an entropy space, since we have a rather large source of energy nearby.
As for DNA, there's no self-replicating when you only have one half in the sperm and one half in the egg. If they join, and there are quirks, mutations, or some other changes, that's all that DNA has to start with. Nothing to correct from. Besides, if it was completely self correcting, we'd all look exactly the same. Ever notice how some people have bigger eyes than others, and some people have better sense of taste than others? Those little quirks, taken out to the extreme, would help those people survive in darker places, or places with a lot of poisonous plants.

I would guess that platipy lived on land, and couldn't dive, instead using their beaks to snatch things out from under water.

Sounds like a good way to starve to death fast. Not really a land animal. Sucks at swimming. The platypus needs to eat about 20% of its own weight each day. This requires the platypus to spend an average of 12 hours each day looking for food.

Who says platypus had to start as an aquatic animal? They may have been very adapted for living on the beach, or walking around on 4 high legs in shallow water, using their beaks to dig at the underwater mud to look for edible stuff buried underneath. Evolving limbs designed for swimming may have happened along with evolving those other things you mentioned. Main point is that it doesn't all happen instantly.

....Eventually one of them was able to...
 a group came out......one of those nostril-closing freaks had..........The evolution of the electro-deception could easily have developed.........

Yup. Magic. There's no science here.

A little less magic than Zeus. I mean Ra. I mean Jesus.

[Rassah]

Despite your vaunted faith in the self-correction capabilities of DNA, it still fucks up, as evinced by the numerous genetic disorders that plague humanity.

Faith? You must be joking. Your body produces 10 trillion copies of your DNA daily just counting white blood cells. That replication code has to be friggin airtight.

Genetic disorders are the result of lost/scrambled information. That is not new information, its new garbage. Information comes only from intelligence. Randomness it the total absence of information.

Actually, your DNA fucks up CONSTANTLY. Little known fact, people get cancer, which is a malevolent mutation, ALL THE TIME. It's just that their white blood cells quickly recognize it and destroy it. It's one of the big reasons people with AIDS or lowered immunities die; they get cancer like everyone else, but their immune system can't keep up with cleaning it. Big type of cancer is either due to same DNA fuckup being too aggressive, or just small enough to not be recognized.

[foggyb]

information certainly can be added during a mutation...

chromosomes may be added (such as in the case of down syndrome)
dna sequences may be added (over-replicate) or may be missing (dna insertion and deletion) 
dna sequences can arrange differently than they normally do (expression)
or there may be simple errors at single/multiple points of the sequence (point/frame shift)

None of these examples are new added information!

Down's syndrome happens due to an added copy of a chromosome. Its not new data. Its redundant.
The other examples are not useful new data. Its corrupted garbage.

any of these occurring in an organism can make drastic changes (but not necessarily so). some of these changes may be beneficial, some detrimental, some neutral. how these changes affect the organisms ability to survive and reproduce determines whether the mutation will be passed on.  

this is the driving force behind evolution.

None of these DNA changes you describe ever result in beneficial evolution.