[CRYPTOSTOCKS] Labcoin Official Thread - Self-Moderated

[Bitcycle]

What this moron needs to do is refund unspent BTC and call it a day.

fuck a refund, I want to see whoever involved BURN... crucify this pick and his family... sorry but that's the way I feel

I vote refund

Sam will take your vote into careful consideration. 

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[Puppet]

Exactly, the burden of proof is on fabr
 

Why is that exactly? Since when does the burden of proof lie with a defendant?
The only contract fabr may have signed is one between his company and a fab. He is bound to that contract, but I have no reason to believe he violated that NDA.

AFAICS, he has made no contract with you or other investors, has no obligation or (legal) liability whatsoever. Alberto could have put Bill Gates name as CEO of the company and called the company "Labcoin Inc / Microsoft" in his prospectus, link to Microsoft.com, BIll Gates Linkedin profile  and publish a sales contract with MS (for the purchase of a Surface tablet) and you think that somehow makes Gates liable or burdened to prove anything?

[Bitcycle]

Exactly, the burden of proof is on fabr
 

Why is that exactly? Since when does the burden of proof lie with a defendant?
The only contract fabr may have signed is one between his company and a fab. He is bound to that contract, but I have no reason to believe he violated that NDA.

AFAICS, he has made no contract with you or other investors, has no obligation or (legal) liability whatsoever. Alberto could have put Bill Gates name as CEO of the company and called the company "Labcoin Inc / Microsoft" in his prospectus, link to Microsoft.com, BIll Gates Linkedin profile  and publish a sales contract with MS (for the purchase of a Surface tablet) and you think that somehow makes Gates liable or burdened to prove anything?

Did Bill Gates meet with the lead engineer for Labcoin in order to sign Labcoin business documents under the Microsoft name?

Fabrizio has been involved in this venture. He has been identified by an eyewitness as having been involved. He has admitted to being involved, on more than one occasion.

It will be up to authorities to determine the extent of his involvement.

[hobbymd]

Exactly, the burden of proof is on fabr
 

Why is that exactly? Since when does the burden of proof lie with a defendant?
The only contract fabr may have signed is one between his company and a fab. He is bound to that contract, but I have no reason to believe he violated that NDA.

AFAICS, he has made no contract with you or other investors, has no obligation or (legal) liability whatsoever. Alberto could have put Bill Gates name as CEO of the company and called the company "Labcoin Inc / Microsoft" in his prospectus, link to Microsoft.com, BIll Gates Linkedin profile  and publish a sales contract with MS (for the purchase of a Surface tablet) and you think that somehow makes Gates liable or burdened to prove anything?

I see the point you trying to make and maybe you are right but fabr needs more than his words to prove he is not involved in this scam . Also I believe fabr knows who is behind this scam( maybe maybe fabr truly didn't know what he was signing up to) if is not himself.  

[Puppet]

I see the point you trying to make and maybe you are right but fabr needs more than his words to prove he is not involved in this scam . Also I believe fabr knows who is behind this scam( maybe maybe fabr truly didn't know what he was signing up to) if is not himself.  

Im pretty sure fabr indeed knows who his brother in law is. And Im sure he will be questioned (and should be), but lets not nail him to a cross just yet, when its entirely plausible, even more likely, his name was simply abused.

[RAVENCROW]

Labcoins depressing.. 

[bitmoon]

I see the point you trying to make and maybe you are right but fabr needs more than his words to prove he is not involved in this scam . Also I believe fabr knows who is behind this scam( maybe maybe fabr truly didn't know what he was signing up to) if is not himself.  

Im pretty sure fabr indeed knows who his brother in law is. And Im sure he will be questioned (and should be), but lets not nail him to a cross just yet, when its entirely plausible, even more likely, his name was simply abused.

hmm contract says labcoin is founded by itec pro, and fab did sign contract for asic, so he is directly and indirectly involved,

if he sold, then he would have came here to clear out his company name from labcoin, which makes no sense to me.
but sam name is still there in old contract along with fab and others, the new contract shows sam only in crypto, yet still makes no sense.

either way we have to not let fab alone, i have doubts now about swede, playing victim card, if you guys met  swede face to face or skype, then im ok.

[Alphi]

Im pretty sure fabr indeed knows who his brother in law is. And Im sure he will be questioned (and should be), but lets not nail him to a cross just yet, when its entirely plausible, even more likely, his name was simply abused.

your synopsis completely defies logic...

ask yourself these simple questions...

why would Alberto deliberately implicate his own brother in law in a scam knowing that any fallout would lead right back to him... why not choose the Alias Sam Noi from the beginning?
why would Alberto use Itech Pro a company registered under Fabrizio Tatti as the front for such an operation (again this would lead right back to Alberto)
why would Fabrizio be completely silent from the internet since 2012 if he had nothing to hide ie why Keep a low profile now? (surely he would just be going about his normal daily business online)
why would Fabrizio not go straight to the authorities as soon as he discovered that his name was being used Fraudulently?


I will give you a more Logical Synopsis.

Alberto the mastermind behind Enso and previous bitcoin scams coopted his girlfriends/wife's brother into another one of his money making schemes.
Blinded by visions of mountains of gold Fabrizio decided to use his own name and relatively untarnished reputation to launch a Bitcoin Mining company.
Both of them, being located in Shenzen and convinced that it would be easy to outsource chip design to the mountains of cheap Chinese designers, set about looking for someone to design what they thought would be a reasonably straight forward Sha265 hashing chip.
Howard Wang an engineering (chip design) student sees an advertisement placed on a website looking for chip designers and decided to apply for the job.
Howard is told he will be paid in this funky new crypto currency called Bitcoin for his work.. and so he Liaises online with someone (either Alberto or Fabrizio) posing as Alesia Tatti..
After a few months of miscomunication and poor management Howard gets cold feet and leaves the company.
He is paid 10BTC for his efforts.

After Howard leaves it becomes apparent that there is no Chip all parties involved begin to panic...

Fearing the legal ramifications... Ethan Burnside (who together with TheSwede75 launched the IPO) decides to wind up his trading company BTCTC.
Fabrizio and Alberto begin to panic knowing full well that their so called easy chip design failed. instead of informing the investor community of their failure and paying back the remaining money.. they hatch a plan to rescue the company by pretending to hand the company over to Sam Noi, relisting Labcoin on another exchange and purchasing Hashing power off the shelf. All the while secretly moving the leftover  3500 BTC over to S.Dice so it can be mixed and therefore untraceable.


Initially the plan works... the new Alias controling the venture (Sam Noi) sets up purchased Off the Shelf hashing power in their office and creates an account on Elguis and then Ghas.io to prove that the company is indeed Mining....

Prety soon more and more investors become to get suspicious of whats happening and begin to dig a little deeper... at first Sam (i.e alberto or Fabrizio), tries to maintain the veneer of legitimacy by deleting the accusations as they are posted... later, faced with an overwhelming investor backlash, Sam decides to go silent and make plans for his escape.

at the moment we do not know if Alberto and Fabrizio are still in Shenzen but you can bet they have already long made plans for their escape. Will they try to maintain the charade by putting up more hashing powe?r... Maybe... will they flee china?.. Probably. will they give investors their money back? Possibly if they get caught and threatened with 10 years in a Chinese prison by the authorities HongKong.. If they get caught in china the funds might be seized as evidence and never returned.


IMO
it is no longer a question of whether Fabrizio is involved .. its more a question of whether he is willing to make a run for it and risk becoming an international fugitive and risk being jailed for many many years OR whether his conscience gets the better of him and he decides to own up to the farse and return the remaining BTC to shareholders.

I hope for his sake that he just admits he is a complete failure of a business man and gives the people back their money.. even 3500 BTC returned to shareholders would be worth more in FIAT currency at today's Exchange rates than the initial 7000 BTC.


Anyone who thinks they will get ALL of their money back is living in a fantasy land.. you all knew the risks when you started investing in BTC... and if you didn't.. you sure do now... take it as a lesson well learnt and lets hope Sammy comes clean and gives you some compensation for your troubles before the Lawyers and Authorities get their cut of the pie.

Just my 2c

[Puppet]

ask yourself these simple questions...

why would Alberto deliberately implicate his own brother in law in a scam knowing that any fallout would lead right back to him... why not choose the Alias Sam Noi from the beginning?

Most likely because it was actually true that Fabrizio contacted a fab and talked to Howard Wang, but never pursued the opportunity because it wasnt one. This would have happened well before labcoin, the IPO and before ALberto got involved. Alberto exploited that to give a veneer of credibility to his scam. As for scammers having morals.. lol.

why would Alberto use Itech Pro a company registered under Fabrizio Tatti as the front for such an operation (again this would lead right back to Alberto)

See above. As for leading right back to alberto, this was so 'obvious' no one found out for many months.

why would Fabrizio be completely silent from the internet since 2012 if he had nothing to hide ie Keeping a low profile ? (surely he would just be going about his normal daily business online)

Because he got an actual job and an actual life? Most of what I found of fabr online is when he arrived in shenzhen and was looking to make local friends there. Not that weird. He's been there for a while now. As for staying low now, I know I would.

why would Fabrizio not go straight to the authorities as soon as he discovered that his name was being used Fraudulently?

Its not the first thing I would do if I found out my brother in law, and possibly sister where involved running a large scale scam that involves my name. Especially not in China. Would you? Besides, he would have known Alberto took over the "business", may not even have objected to that being described in the "company history",  but that doesnt mean he was still involved or had anything to do with it since the IPO.

Initially the plan works... the new Alias controling the venture (Sam Noi) sets up purchased Off the Shelf hashing power in their office and creates an account on Elguis and then Ghas.io to prove that the company is indeed Mining....

AFAIK, "Sam Noi" alias has been around for as long as labcoin as "nominee director" for labcoin. And whats more, you seem to agree with me that this probably started as a legitimate even if naive attempt. The key issue is when the money was raised and by who. I see no reason to believe Fabr still had anything to do with it at that point, I strongly suspect that was Alberto and Alberto alone (perhaps with Alessi) posing as "Sam Noi". If fabr had still been involved, do you really think he would let his real name, linkedin profile etc be published while letting Alberto use an alias?

[bitmoon]

in old thread, as i remember

there is chatlog posted where fabrizio say he run mutliple projects (including labcoin) ,

the shareholder question was like asking update/news/info about labcoin and fabrizio replied like as in he is not involved in its operation 100% and that he manages other projects, so he didnt know much what was labcoin doing, quite lame, but he manages it, as the statement above proofs it.

maybe sam noi was mentioned, cant remember, some one can find the chatlog post?

[crumbs]

why would Fabrizio not go straight to the authorities as soon as he discovered that his name was being used Fraudulently?

Its not the first thing I would do if I found out my brother in law, and possibly sister where involved running a large scale scam that involves my name. Especially not in China. Would you? Besides, he would have known Alberto took over the "business", may not even have objected to that being described in the "company history",  but that doesnt mean he was still involved or had anything to do with it since the IPO....

In other words, fronting the scam & covering up for his brother-in-law (if that is all that he did) makes him innocent in your eyes?
Is my TL;DR pretty much correct?

[Puppet]

in old thread, as i remember

there is chatlog posted where fabrizio say he run mutliple projects (including labcoin) ,

the shareholder question was like asking update/news/info about labcoin and fabrizio replied like as in he is not involved in its operation 100% and that he manages other projects, so he didnt know much what was labcoin doing, quite lame, but he manages it, as the statement above proofs it.

maybe sam noi was mentioned, cant remember, some one can find the chatlog post?

The very first post of user labcoin, dated May uses the "Samuel Noi" alias:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=209553.msg2195210

As for the chatlog, it was probably from well before the IPO, when the venture was most likely still legit. Moreover whoever was claiming to be Fabr on IRC may not have been Fabr. Isnt that the same chatlog where "sam"/alberto claimed to use allesi's handle or something? Either way, someone using Fabr's name on IRC (if even that gets confirmed) from before the IPO time, by a scam artist that has been hiding behind the same ID ever since is hardly compelling evidence.

As the saying goes, follow the money. "sam" (ie Alberto) is the one who received it. If he cut in Fabr or others then they will have to answer for that, not for their names being abused on sheet full of lies. If anything at this point TheSwede is far more demonstrably complicit than Fabr and he does have legal liability (providing material support to public selling of unregistered securities is a crime and makes him as liable as Alberto) - regardless of how much or how little he knew.

[BitThink]

Exactly, the burden of proof is on fabr
 

Why is that exactly? Since when does the burden of proof lie with a defendant?
The only contract fabr may have signed is one between his company and a fab. He is bound to that contract, but I have no reason to believe he violated that NDA.

AFAICS, he has made no contract with you or other investors, has no obligation or (legal) liability whatsoever. Alberto could have put Bill Gates name as CEO of the company and called the company "Labcoin Inc / Microsoft" in his prospectus, link to Microsoft.com, BIll Gates Linkedin profile  and publish a sales contract with MS (for the purchase of a Surface tablet) and you think that somehow makes Gates liable or burdened to prove anything?

Bill gates hasn't signed a contract for labcoin. Bill gates does not have a sister whose personal account is used in recruiting theSeven and Howard. Bill gates hasn't meet Howard face to face.

[BitThink]

Exactly, the burden of proof is on fabr
 

Why is that exactly? Since when does the burden of proof lie with a defendant?
The only contract fabr may have signed is one between his company and a fab. He is bound to that contract, but I have no reason to believe he violated that NDA.

AFAICS, he has made no contract with you or other investors, has no obligation or (legal) liability whatsoever. Alberto could have put Bill Gates name as CEO of the company and called the company "Labcoin Inc / Microsoft" in his prospectus, link to Microsoft.com, BIll Gates Linkedin profile  and publish a sales contract with MS (for the purchase of a Surface tablet) and you think that somehow makes Gates liable or burdened to prove anything?

Bill gates hasn't signed a contract for labcoin. Bill gates does not have a sister whose personal account is used in recruiting theSeven and Howard. Bill gates hasn't meet Howard face to face. These may not prove he was the main person, but are enough to prove he was definitely involved.

[Puppet]

The real question is: was he involved with the IPO? Its no crime contracting theseven or others to work on a chip nor to ask RFQ to a fab to see if its feasible. As pretty much everyone seems to agree on, this almost certainly started as a legitimate experiment. Its only when they collected 7000 BTC on a pack of lies and subsequently decided to run with it that it became criminal. Was Fabr involved in any of that? Remains to be seen, but Ive seen no evidence. AFAIK Theseven was contracted post IPO and my guess is Fabr didnt do a thing related to it after starting work at zopo. All involvement Ive seen even predates the "labcoin" name.

As for his sister, thats another matter. It could have been Alberto posing as her, I simply do not know. I dont even know if there were still together at that time or even now.

[Alphi]

Most likely because it was actually true that Fabrizio contacted a fab and talked to Howard Wang, but never pursued the opportunity because it wasnt one. This would have happened well before labcoin, the IPO and before Alberto got involved. Alberto exploited that to give a veneer of credibility to his scam. As for scammers having morals.. lol.

how could a scammer being involved do anything but the opposite of giving a veneer of credibility? If Alberto was/is involved then he was most likely there from the beginning.. He has written several articles about bitcoin, he has been involved with bitcoin and bitcoin related scams since 2011. to my knowledge there is nothing tracing Fabrizio back that far.. so why would Alberto get involved after Labcoin collapsed.. its more logical that Alberto introduced Fabrizio to bitcoin...

Because he got an actual job and an actual life? Most of what I found of fabr online is when he arrived in shenzhen and was looking to make local friends there. Not that weird. He's been there for a while now. As for staying low now, I know I would.

Alberto and Fabrizio have both been in shenzen for a number of years... pretty coincidental no?
As for not going to authorities when someone is falsely using your name and company... That would be no problem in Hongkong as Hongkong uses a British style legal system. Itech pro is a hongkong registered company, there is no reason why Fabrizio couldn't have gone to the authorities there (its only a very short 30 minute commute from Shenzhen).. for god sakes Edwad Snowden didn't have a problem getting into and out of Hong kong  and he was one of the worlds most wanted men at the time.

And whats more, you seem to agree with me that this probably started as a legitimate even if naive attempt.

I agree it was foolhardy from the beginning that's why I didn't invest at IPO... it smelt just like Active Mining with a lot less legitimate public information.
However the simple fact that they tried to make an ASIC Mining chip doesn't make them a legitimate business.. it all comes down to whether they Mislead the public with false information in the prospectus.
I think its pretty clear in hind sight that Labcoin never could have met their contractual obligations... the only question remaining is.. when did they start lying?

 

If fabr had still been involved, do you really think he would let his real name, linkedin profile etc be published while letting Alberto use an alias?

that is why he went on chat posing as Sam Noi saying something like "Fabrizio is no longer involved I have taken sole responsibility for this" Why would Alberto dump Fabrizio right in the shit and then go online and say "No fabrizio is nolonger involved?" that makes no sense at all.

PLUS do you really think that Fabrizio would hand over 3500 bitcoins to a guy who cant even be identified online? (Everyone has an internet footprint.. just google yourself and you will see how much information there is about you online). The funds raised at IPO belong to the company (and the shareholders) if control of the company changes hands then all of the assets would have to also, otherwise that is VERY CLEAR evidence of fraud.

From a legal perspective .. everything does very clearly point to Fabrizio...

[Alphi]

Just a random document I found while trauling the net..

http://pdfcast.org/download/tatti.pdf


I don't know who created this PDF or why.. but to me it looks like someone is building up a formal case against Fabrizio and Labcoin..

on the face of it it looks like the beginnings of a Brief of Evidence... the document which is given to the DPP who then decides whether to lay charges and ask the court to issue warrant for arrest.

the document clearly shows Fabrizio's link-to and registration-of Itech Pro in HK...

the certificates are attached inside the PDF


Interesting times indeed.

[BenTuras]

Just a random document I found while trauling the net..

http://pdfcast.org/download/tatti.pdf


I don't know who created this PDF or why.. but to me it looks like someone is building up a formal case against Fabrizio and Labcoin..

the document clearly shows Fabrizio's link-to and registration-of Itech Pro in HK...

the certificates are attached inside the PDF


Interesting times indeed.

Save it on your PC, the linked file is gone.

[Puppet]

If Alberto was/is involved

I think by now we can drop the "if".

He has written several articles about bitcoin, he has been involved with bitcoin and bitcoin related scams since 2011. to my knowledge there is nothing tracing Fabrizio back that far.. so why would Alberto get involved after Labcoin collapsed.. its more logical that Alberto introduced Fabrizio to bitcoin...

I agree its quite likely Alberto introduced Fabr to bitcoin. That doesnt mean he convinced Fabr to (knowingly) participate in a scam. In all likelihood Alberto presented this as a legitimate business opportunity (maybe he even believed that himself at that point) and they went out to gather input from designers and fabs, using Fabr shelf company. However in July Fabr began working at Zopo;  he clearly has a thing for mobile phones, this doesnt sound like a bad job opportunity for him at all, so he likely dropped the whole bitcoin thing.  Its only after that, that Alberto decided to do an IPO to raise the funds and/or walk away with the funds.

Does that mean Fabr had nothing to do with "labcoin"? No, and he will for sure be asked lots of questions, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt of not having any responsibility in taking investors money and running away with it. All I ask is people do the same.

[Alphi]

Save it on your PC, the linked file is gone.

the PDF document is still there you just have to use that stupid Human authentication thing at the top before you click download to prove that you are human