GBTC Bitcoin Investment Trust Observer

[Denker]

An interesting factoid -
http://www.investmentnews.com/article/20170831/FREE/170839978/sec-names-dalia-blass-director-of-investment-management

The new SEC head of investment management, the bit that approves ETFs is a lawyer formerly engaged by the Winklevii. It's coincided with a juicy fall in the premium which could  be pure coincidence.

An ETF will still be an exceedingly long shot.

Yes this is great news, however we shouldn't expect too much, at least not in short term.
But I think it's just a question of time before we see the first ETFs getting approved.
And that would be extremely bullish for the price. Step by step after that we will see more and more Bitcoin and crypto related trading vehicles popping up.
The question then is in how far will they be able to manipulate the price of BTC, like they do with gold and silver. I'm lacking experience and understanding in that case. Any ideas?

[centralbanksequalsbombs]

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/31/short-seller-andrew-left-targets-grayscales-bitcoin-trust.html?play=1

According to this fella we're 6 months out from ETF's and other crypto currency instruments.


Edit: If we start to really rally hard over the next month or so, do any of you believe GBTC can still continue to increase its premium?

Regardless even if another ETF never gets approved - there's already an ETF that's been out that trades at very little premium on Nasdaq Nordic (accessible to US investors whose brokerages have european equities - ie Interactive Brokers);

-XBT provider's bitcoin swedish nasdaq etf (priced in SEK currency) : bitcoinxb / bloomberg ticker: coinxbt [not real btc]

-Grayscale's bitcoin Over-the-counter markets fund : GBTC  [not real btc]

-Gemini's exchange's daily auctions of bitcoin buyers and sellers [real btc?]

This is outside of the many popular exchanges that exist for bitcoin and cryptocurrencies including p2p exchange localbitcoins. [real BTC]

...Anyone foresee opportunities for potential arbitrage?

[gentlemand]

The Swedish thing is an ETN. As far as I know there are no tax advantages. Also ETNs don't have to be backed by the real asset, but that one voluntarily is. It's not really comparable to a properly put together ETF.

[neekolas86]

Any idea what is to happen to the Bitcoin Cash GBTC holds? I would hope that any GBTC holders as of the day of the hard fork would be entitled to the Bitcoin Cash dividend regardless of whether they have since sold their shares.

[MrSunshine]

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/31/short-seller-andrew-left-targets-grayscales-bitcoin-trust.html?play=1

According to this fella we're 6 months out from ETF's and other crypto currency instruments.


Edit: If we start to really rally hard over the next month or so, do any of you believe GBTC can still continue to increase its premium?

Maybe, as it is the only practical way to get Bitcoin exposure in an IRA. BTC could have a massive run up to $10,000. I can't predict crypto though.

[mmortal03]

Any idea what is to happen to the Bitcoin Cash GBTC holds? I would hope that any GBTC holders as of the day of the hard fork would be entitled to the Bitcoin Cash dividend regardless of whether they have since sold their shares.

That's my understanding of the following from July, but we don't know when it's supposed to happen. I did sell my shares after the fork, but am still expecting a distribution to show up in my brokerage account at some point in the future, based on this. It is ambiguous regarding if you held before the fork, and have since sold, though:

The Sponsor currently expects to cause the Trust to liquidate any Bitcoin Cash associated with the Bitcoin held by the Trust and to cause the proceeds of such liquidation to be distributed on a pro rata basis to holders of units of the Trust.  It is expected that any such distribution would be made only after allowing time for evaluation of the market for Bitcoin Cash and consideration of the manner in which to liquidate such Bitcoin Cash, which may be months after the fork occurs. As part of the evaluation of the market for Bitcoin Cash, the Sponsor expects to consider, among other factors, whether there are any appropriately regulated exchanges that have listed Bitcoin Cash. In addition, such distribution, if and when made, would be to owners who held Trust units on a specified record date, which is anticipated to be the day the fork occurs. The amount of any distribution will be net of expenses of the Sponsor and the Trust, including costs associated with liquidation and distribution.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/grayscale-investments-llc-statement-regarding-203000163.html

[mmortal03]

That being said, there are articles talking about it as if GBTC shares should be evaluated as if they also represent Bitcoin Cash:

GBTC also holds Bitcoin Cash

Accounting for the fact that GBTC also holds Bitcoin Cash for every dollar of Bitcoin held, we get a more palatable premium of ~67%. While this value seems large compared to other investment vehicles, GBTC has traded at much higher premiums of up to ~186%, and has only traded at a discount for one day - the market price traded at a (0.1%) discount in October '15. As long as demand holds up and supply remains constricted, a ~67% premium does not look too lofty.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4104272-bitcoin-investment-decade

[mmortal03]

Bitcoin Investment Trust just put out an update regarding the potential Bitcoin Cash distribution: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/bitcoin-investment-trust-provides-update-on-possible-bitcoin-cash-distribution-300515060.html

[CrazyLoaf]

Bitcoin Investment Trust just put out an update regarding the potential Bitcoin Cash distribution: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/bitcoin-investment-trust-provides-update-on-possible-bitcoin-cash-distribution-300515060.html

This is a crap update on their part. XBTProvider/CoinXBT came right out and said that if they did anything regarding Bitcoin Cash, it would be based on the fork date:

https://xbtprovider.com/news/post/xbt-provider-ab-update-regarding-recent-bitcoin-fork

So is GBTC going to be using the same fork day or not? Or are they just going to be picking a random Wednesday in the future and will spring it on everyone with another vague press release?

[notme]

https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-etf-has-new-hope-of-success-bloomberg-analyst



Also, looks like we touched $778 today, new ATH. Incredible.

I keep thinking that some whale is going to take their GBTC profits any day now...

I sure hope so... I never got back on the train after I sold at $540.  Oh well, straight BTC has done well for me.  It just would have been nice to collect some more tax-sheltered gains in my Roth IRA.

Same.

The window might be opening again soon.  Down to $520 today.

[MNDan]

In tomorrow - should be the easiest double ever...?

[MrSunshine]

In tomorrow - should be the easiest double ever...?

I agree with you, now is the time to buy as BTC will likely bounce over the weekend when GBTC is not trading, so Friday is the day to get in.

[MrSunshine]

Got in at 517 yesterday, looking good so far. I was worried BTC was really going to plunge today taking GBTC with it, but we may have hit the bottom

[bobbitcoin77]

GBTC is an ureg securities only for accredited investor is that what you are talking about. If so it trades at 100% premium to cash bitcoin for 2 simple reasons convenience and insurance. it shows where bitcoin would trade if this ecosystem had something even close to that. not lost wallets, exchange difficulst,scams, no insurance of any kind.

[MrSunshine]

GBTC is an ureg securities only for accredited investor is that what you are talking about. If so it trades at 100% premium to cash bitcoin for 2 simple reasons convenience and insurance. it shows where bitcoin would trade if this ecosystem had something even close to that. not lost wallets, exchange difficulst,scams, no insurance of any kind.

Yes, I am talking about GBTC, but you don't need to be an accredited investor to buy it. Right, it trades at a premium because it is the only game in town now for getting into bitcoin for your typical stock holder (and in your IRA). For me I hold it in my IRA. Outside my IRA I have Bitcoin plus about 20 alt coins.

[mmortal03]

Now that they've withdrawn the ETF application, can we get some news on when and how we will receive our BCH distributions?

[iCEBREAKER]

Now that they've withdrawn the ETF application, can we get some news on when and how we will receive our BCH distributions?

What I signed up for = Exposure to price of Bitcoin

What I'm getting = Exposure to Bcash and Silbert2X

[mmortal03]

Now that they've withdrawn the ETF application, can we get some news on when and how we will receive our BCH distributions?

What I signed up for = Exposure to price of Bitcoin

What I'm getting = Exposure to Bcash and Silbert2X

Maybe. I thought the BCH exposure in GBTC was only for those who held it *before* the fork, but right now, at least, GBTC *is* moving sideways while BTC is going up. I forget when that happened last.

[gentlemand]

I don't really get why they're mentioning BCH at all.

The people who have money in GBTC do not have money in Bitcoin therefore they have no BCH either. It's Grayscale's toy to do whatever they want with. GBTC holders are nobodies when it comes to this.

[mmortal03]

I don't really get why they're mentioning BCH at all.

The people who have money in GBTC do not have money in Bitcoin therefore they have no BCH either. It's Grayscale's toy to do whatever they want with. GBTC holders are nobodies when it comes to this.

Are you saying that the BTC that's backing up the GBTC shares is *not* actually there? That's quite a claim.