[POLL] Should we ban something on the Bitcoin marketplace?

[BitterTea]

Illegal goods are now banned on the marketplace (rules). The decision is based on the notion that there's no need to keep that kind of content on this particular forum. The cost of having to go somewhere else is smaller than the cost of possible bad reputation on this forum.

So you ask for input, start a poll, and then ignore the results? What is the purpose of this rule, exactly? Are links to alternate forums that allow or specialize in the trading of illegal goods banned as well?

[Bruce Wagner]

The problem with banning "illegal goods" is that....  Almost everything is legal SOMEWHERE.    No?

[ribuck]

The problem with banning "illegal goods"...

The other problem with banning "illegal goods" will arise if Bitcoin itself becomes illegal. But in the meantime, I think Sirius' policy is workable.

[kiba]

So you ask for input, start a poll, and then ignore the results? What is the purpose of this rule, exactly? Are links to alternate forums that allow or specialize in the trading of illegal goods banned as well?

Don't know mean you can't be forced to testify against your friend who did nothing wrong but run afoul of the law.

[Anonymous]

Add this link to your forum profile info.


http://silkroad420.wordpress.com/

[gigitrix]

A wise decision. No need to keep questionable content here: let other people provide those secondary markets and be responsible for the consequences.

This is not a question of legality or morality, it's a question of PR for the bitcoin project. Regardless of personal beliefs and ideologies surrounding bitcoin, it's harmful to the image of Bitcoin to be associated with such things on the "official" forums, and could harm adoption or even be the catalyst for a government's response to the system itself.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Whats going to happen if some government declares bitcoin itself as illegal ?

I think the scenario depends on type of country. For example:

- "Full stop": In muslim countries, penalties for using such technology can include stoning a person to death (or cutting a hand, flogging etc), so Bitcoin adoption will seriously slow down or even stop there because people will be seriously afraid of consequences.
- "Little or no slowdown": In a "western democracy" type, little will happen. People will keep using Bitcoin as they keep using P2P. Adoption may be slowed down a little
- "No effect or speedup": In post-communist democracies, governments make rules, but people break most of them every day. Nobody gives a fuck about law and curruption is very high. So it will have no slowing effect whatsoever. Even a little speedup is possible, because government banning something will create a free advertisement for it. How do i know this ? Because i live in such a country.

[sirius]

Illegal goods are now banned on the marketplace (rules). The decision is based on the notion that there's no need to keep that kind of content on this particular forum. The cost of having to go somewhere else is smaller than the cost of possible bad reputation on this forum.

So you ask for input, start a poll, and then ignore the results? What is the purpose of this rule, exactly?

It was a tough decision to make and I wanted to hear bitcoiners' opinions on this. I didn't ignore the results - this is a poll, not a vote. 1/3 of people don't want drug dealing here, and that's not a small minority. The purpose of this rule is to keep the forum a place that you can present publicly.

Are links to alternate forums that allow or specialize in the trading of illegal goods banned as well?

Anything that is not forbidden is allowed, using common sense of course.

[sirius]

The problem with banning "illegal goods" is that....  Almost everything is legal SOMEWHERE.    No?

The rules forbid trading of goods that are illegal in the seller's or buyer's country.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

The problem with banning "illegal goods" is that....  Almost everything is legal SOMEWHERE.    No?

No. Pedo-porn with young children (<10) is banned practically everywhere.

----
Also, i don't believe a country which would allow legally producing (not posessing) heroin exists, however i may be wrong there.

[Anonymous]

The problem with banning "illegal goods" is that....  Almost everything is legal SOMEWHERE.    No?

No. Pedo-porn with young children (<10) is banned practically everywhere.

----
Also, i don't believe a country which would allow legally producing (not posessing) heroin exists, however i may be wrong there.

Portugal has decriminalised ALL drugs.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

Age of consent around the world.

http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm

I fear this ban will open up a can of worms in that governments make arbitrary laws all the time and you cant possibly know all of them . All the banks have to do now is lobby a few politicians and bitcoin itself will be illegal.

[ShadowOfHarbringer]

Portugal has decriminalised ALL drugs.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

the article says:

for personal possession of drugs, including marijuana, cocaine, heroin and methamphetamine.

So it seems that PRODUCTION of heroin may be illegal. Production != posession. They can still jail you for producing large amounts.

Age of consent around the world.

http://www.avert.org/age-of-consent.htm

So I was right: there is no country in the world that would allow sex with (< 10 years) underaged children.

All the banks have to do now is lobby a few politicians and bitcoin itself will be illegal.

Which won't help a lot as i already pointed out. Most governments in the world are either too corrupt or simply powerless to stop people from using P2P, so how can they stop them from using Bitcoin ? Death penalty ? That won't pass.

And by the way, the governments work too slow to ban Bitcoin before it reaches critical mass. Unless of course they have another argument like "Bitcoin was created for evil", which is the whole point of banning  stuff on this forum.

Personally i believe that Bitcoin will gain critical mass in maximum 2 years, after which it will be virtually unstoppable (unless of course some serious technical weakness comes up). Global domination in progress.

[Anonymous]

My suggestion - split the marketplace from the development discussion and host it on a different forum altogether.
It has been suggested before that the official forum be for discussion of the code only and everything else separated . Maybe now is a good time to do that de-linking before bitcoin goes mainstream.

Then people can agree to the new rules when they sign up rather than have it imposed on them.  Then lock the marketplace from the official forum and start anew where everyone can agree to the groundrules and terms of service voluntarily - let the market decide imo. I have no doubt a forum behind tor will spring up for anyone who really wants to engage in activity governments dont like . In fact I urge someone to do that right now as a business model   

This might need moderators who have a set of guidelines to follow on what is allowed and what is not.

It is already too late to start deleting content and censoring it. Thats not how we roll as a community and its not fair to impose rules on new users when old ones have had free reign .  I have no problem with joining something as long as the rules are made clear upon signup .

Let the developers concentrate on the code not on censorship .  As the owner of the bitcoin.me domain I offer that as a place for the new marketplace forum.

On the plus side a forum dedicated to trading can be more organised than what it is now with a built in web of trust ,ratings (karma) and other features. Does anyone think this is a good idea and would you be willing to contribute to get it done ?

[kiba]

My suggestion - split the marketplace from the development discussion and host it on a different forum altogether.
It has been suggested before that the official forum be for discussion of the code only and everything else separated . Maybe now is a good time to do that de-linking before bitcoin goes mainstream.

Let the developers concentrate on the code not on censorship .  As the owner of the bitcoin.me domain I offer that as a place for the new marketplace forum.

On the plus side a forum dedicated to trading can be more organised than what it is now with a built in web of trust ,ratings (karma) and other features. Does anyone think this is a good idea and would you be willing to contribute to get it done ?

I don't want to delink the marketplace from the community. In fact, I think it's the central point of the community. I mean, what kind of a cryptocurrency community would we be if we have no official market to trade in?

That being said, I think the trend is toward a decentralized forum community. The wiki editing is already decentralized in any case.

[eMansipater]

emansipater seems pretty big on telling others what to do ... emancipation only flows one way eh?

I enjoy a good ribbing, especially one that puns on my nick so no worries moa.  But since I'm still relatively new to the bitcoin community, I thought I'd take the chance to comment anyways.

As a person who runs my own 3D printing business, has been involved in several tech startups, helped to start a national political party, and has run for public office with a modicum of success, I've spent a lot of time trying to promote cutting edge ideas among the general public.  The potential for bitcoin to be applied in creating a microtransaction economy, provide unprecedented access to financial security and services in the developing world, and increase the competitive pressure on financial services powerbrokers everywhere makes me pretty passionate about it.  But my experience has taught me that there are two types of communities:  one that remains fundamentally detached from an understanding of the world beyond its subculture, and one that retains and leverages a broader perspective to become truly successful on a meaningful scale.

Because I believe in bitcoin I've invested my real world identity, interpersonal reputation, a great deal of time, a meaningful amount of money, and not insignificant business interests into the community.  I've been successful in notably increasing the level of bitcoin adoption within my social network--financial commitments and real-world use, not just running the client hoping to get lucky with a block.  I just touted bitcoin unofficially at TEDxManitoba with some pretty innovative, influential people.  I'm working on two large bitcoin-related projects.  I convinced a rural Manitoban policeman nearing retirement to accept bitcoin for a real-world purchase (he's pretty happy that bitcoins are worth 2-3 times what they were when I did that).

If there are other people out there who are as serious about making bitcoin succeed as I am, I hope they would share their experience and opinions just as strongly and clearly as I have.  Without that, there wouldn't be much of a bitcoin community.  And without a bitcoin community, bitcoin isn't going to have the chance to provide freedom to anyone.  So yes, they're just words, but I'm going to use them (like everything else I have available to me) as effectively as I know how to try and make bitcoin succeed.  Right now that means getting as many people here as possible to ask themselves if having bitcoin associated with drug trafficking, HYIP's, and other illicit headline fodder is really a battle they want to fight.  And a huge +1 for the marketplace rules--simple, not overdone, and an important move.

sincerely,
eMansipater

[barbarousrelic]

The problem with banning "illegal goods"...

The other problem with banning "illegal goods" will arise if Bitcoin itself becomes illegal. But in the meantime, I think Sirius' policy is workable.

I find it highly unlikely that Bitcoin itself will be declared illegal in the US or any other similar nation. What might happen is it will attract IRS attention and lead to a crackdown on people who make undeclared income in Bitcoin.

[BitterTea]

I find it highly unlikely that Bitcoin itself will be declared illegal in the US or any other similar nation. What might happen is it will attract IRS attention and lead to a crackdown on people who make undeclared income in Bitcoin.

Highly unlikely? Really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-gold#2007_indictment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_dollar#FBI_.2F_Secret_Service_raid

[we6jbo]

I wouldn't mind a split marketplace for things that are borderline illegal or questionable to government but I think the truly illegal stuff should be done by someone else and not created or even endorsed or linked to by this site. I'm not saying this because it could get bitcoin in trouble but because I find it as a turn off to engage in illegal activity and I'd rather not be a part of that. I think that's mainly why a lot of people voted no for that.

[mimarob]

I would really prefer this forum to be kept more clean than we actually have to, the nicer we appear the easier to point fingers at the evil government for shutting the forum down.

No sex, no drugs and rock'n'roll might be tolerated on Saturdays only :-)

[Binford 6100]

In principle I don't advocate for banning anything, however I have serious concerns about advertising contraband on this forum.

By doing so, you paint a target on the exchangers.

Too few of you understand what exchangers have already been through. It was police action over gambling that caused every exchanger in the USA to quit or flee.

What is the FBI and RCMP going to do now that some of you have openly advertised sale of drugs by mail? Gambling got exchange people imprisoned, exiled and even murdered. What is police reaction going to be now, offering illegal drugs for sale and naming exchangers in the same posts?

In the past few weeks I've noticed links to illicit offers in my referrer logs. In all my years of working as cashier to the internet I've never seen such blatant disregard for the principles of discretion.

The men who run the bitcoin markets and the exchange services are not anonymous ghosts. We are real people in meat space with reams of law to obey, ID documents, bank accounts, offices and licenses. We can very easily be tapped by the lawmen.

Do you jokers really think exchangers will work for you when you have such little regard for their liberty?

Shut the hell up already.

Very good point, i didn't think of it this way.
So trading illegals also introduces extra risk of police intervention among exchangers ? Interesting, indeed.

However, do you have any links to support this ? I would like to read more.

hm, try the silkroad420 link in noagendamarket's signature
read the discussion below the main page info and you will find links
to the nanaimo exchange website in the same posts as solde, sent, works great etc.
there are only 30+ posts, should not take too long to read.
that is a nice example of the worst context for a legaly operated exchange.
i'm sure shane could send you more examples. but this one should be enough as a proof of work
yes, bitcoin pun intended.