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Author Topic: New Ixcoin fork -> I0coin  (Read 200251 times)
DeathAndTaxes
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November 30, 2011, 07:50:54 PM
 #1421

I sent you doublec 1000 ioc.  However, if you read my post, the 5 btc and rewards were if you lowered the reward from 48 to 1 within the near future.  The reason to make a coin different than btc or nmc with merged mining.  I can't seem to mine with the new client, it crashes when I find a block.

It's already different.  50 coins per block vs. 48.  I'm not sure why you think changing the block reward would fix your problem, and I'm even further confused why you'd want a change that would affect all i0coin miners just to address an issue you're having.

Simple he thinks that changing block reward from 48 to 1 will drive the price of existing coins up (artificial scarcity).  New miners will subsidize (via lower mining yields) those w/ large pre-existing holdings of older coins.  It is simply a wealth transfer scheme.
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December 01, 2011, 02:20:52 AM
 #1422

Surely if merged mining happens, all clients have to know how to verify the work that was purportedly done, so all clients have to know how to get in touch with the parent chain to get the "proof of work". Huh

So I do not get how everyone can choose some totally different chain to use as parent when they merged mine?

Surely they would at least be limited to choosing a parent chain that the majority of hash power worth of clients know how to look up the proofs on?

Otherwise I could claim I used some fictional chain of my own as parent, and not have it online to connect to anywhere. A client would not accept that would they? They would want to check the pparent blockchain to make sure it is itself a valid chain, that the purported proof happened on a part of it that has not been orphaned, and so on?

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December 01, 2011, 02:55:37 AM
 #1423

Surely if merged mining happens, all clients have to know how to verify the work that was purportedly done, so all clients have to know how to get in touch with the parent chain to get the "proof of work". Huh

So I do not get how everyone can choose some totally different chain to use as parent when they merged mine?

Surely they would at least be limited to choosing a parent chain that the majority of hash power worth of clients know how to look up the proofs on?

Otherwise I could claim I used some fictional chain of my own as parent, and not have it online to connect to anywhere. A client would not accept that would they? They would want to check the pparent blockchain to make sure it is itself a valid chain, that the purported proof happened on a part of it that has not been orphaned, and so on?

-MarkM-

In merged mining, you mine on the master chain.
It's the slave chain that must support merged mining - so BTC cannot be a slave chain
BTC does not directly support merged mining as I stated above:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=36425.msg635148#msg635148
only indirectly.

Your pool is the software that sorts out how to convert your getwork answer into a second block for the slave chain, but your getwork answer is already a block for the master chain.

Pool: https://kano.is BTC: 1KanoiBupPiZfkwqB7rfLXAzPnoTshAVmb
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December 01, 2011, 04:40:17 AM
 #1424

Yes but a client for a coin someone somewhere tried to merged-mine using some arbitrary parent could not verify that the parent chain actually accepted the work if they did not know how to connect to the parent chain and get from it the required evidence.

Someone said earlier you can use pretty much any chains, but I do not think that seems likely. I suspect the clients would have to know how to work with the specific parent chain that any merged miners use, otherwise they cannot validate the blocks that were merge-mined.

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December 01, 2011, 06:25:26 AM
 #1425

1) I agree that the person who wants 1 i0coin / block simply wants to make his coins scarce (worth more).

2) It's sounding like it may be possible to have both namecoin and i0coin merged with bitcoin?  Clearly that gives any new chain new hope to be much more secure in the event new chains are created with merged mining right off the bat.

And I think it would also increase bitcoin security, b/c everyone would be mining the "parent chain" (bitcoin)?

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December 01, 2011, 07:49:44 AM
 #1426

1) I agree that the person who wants 1 i0coin / block simply wants to make his coins scarce (worth more).

2) It's sounding like it may be possible to have both namecoin and i0coin merged with bitcoin?  Clearly that gives any new chain new hope to be much more secure in the event new chains are created with merged mining right off the bat.

And I think it would also increase bitcoin security, b/c everyone would be mining the "parent chain" (bitcoin)?

1. Disclosure I have about 30K ioc and 50K ixc, to come up with the idea I would like a little bounty.  In the "ixcoin merged mining thread", it is up to nasakioto to keep his baby the way he wants it.  However, I suggest something different than bitcoin.  Otherwise I may ask fcisashita to make goldcoin.  I want to create a true deflationary currency.

2. yes and no because they are probably pools mining bitcoin already.

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December 01, 2011, 07:54:54 AM
 #1427

1) I agree that the person who wants 1 i0coin / block simply wants to make his coins scarce (worth more).

2) It's sounding like it may be possible to have both namecoin and i0coin merged with bitcoin?  Clearly that gives any new chain new hope to be much more secure in the event new chains are created with merged mining right off the bat.

And I think it would also increase bitcoin security, b/c everyone would be mining the "parent chain" (bitcoin)?

1. Disclosure I have about 30K ioc and 50K ixc, to come up with the idea I would like a little bounty.  In the "ixcoin merged mining thread", it is up to nasakioto to keep his baby the way he wants it.  However, I suggest something different than bitcoin.  Otherwise I may ask fcisashita to make goldcoin.  I want to create a true deflationary currency.

2. yes and no because they are probably pools mining bitcoin already.



1) I appreciate the disclosure.  "True deflationary" still needs a mechanism for dispersing the currency into the hands of people.  So just wait a few years, and the "inflation" problem of coins will go away.  No real way to launch us into that situation prematurely.  Otherwise, we're all sitting around with a ton of worthless coins.  There needs to be that balance to allow the project to develop in a more natural way.  I think bitcoin can be praised for that.

2) agreed, good point.

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December 01, 2011, 10:10:00 AM
 #1428

Now who was it who used that excuse for increasing the value of his coins before? ... ah that's right RealSolid ...

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December 01, 2011, 10:37:07 AM
 #1429

I just now added I0Coin to the exchange I am doing initial alpha testing of. This is the third coin type added, so far it thus offers exchanges between BTC, DVC, and I0C. YOu get to specify the granularity too, like buying/selling 1 at a time, 10 at a time, or whatever number you choose. Each granularity is treated as basically another market. Thus the market for buying 100 coins at a time might have a different price per coin than the market for buying only 1 at a time.

See the exchange / Open Transactions server's own thread at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53329.0

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December 01, 2011, 10:40:58 AM
 #1430

I just now added I0Coin to the exchange I am doing initial alpha testing of.
How are you protecting against double spend attacks given the low hash rate and the fact that i0coin hasn't yet reached the block where the timetravel fix is enabled yet?
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December 01, 2011, 11:21:27 AM
 #1431

Can anyone merged mine using windows now?
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December 01, 2011, 01:06:12 PM
 #1432

I just now added I0Coin to the exchange I am doing initial alpha testing of.
How are you protecting against double spend attacks given the low hash rate and the fact that i0coin hasn't yet reached the block where the timetravel fix is enabled yet?

Does the timetravel thing let people undo historically archived before the last checkpoint or even before last umpteen checkpoints blocks?

I figured on only issuing Digi*coin tokens backed by coins that are in historic blocks that predate last checkpoint of their chain.

So if anyone screws with blockchains, an archived chain up to a checkpoint later than where the coins backing the tokens are can be redeployed once whatever their exploit was has been fixed.

Thus maybe allowing the tokens to be in some sense potentially safer than the coins that back them.

(SInce time travel might undo whole chain back to block one, but, once exploit is fixed, and for any newly set up clients that actually check the chain from scratch making sure all checkpoints are correct, the coins backing the tokens will be in the correct/valid blockchain as they always were.)

I only had maybe 7000 or so I0coins a few months ago, so will only issue up to 7000 DIgiI0C, until I am sure any coins I mined or received more recently have been checkpointed in the latest client releases.

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December 01, 2011, 06:26:16 PM
 #1433

Now who was it who used that excuse for increasing the value of his coins before? ... ah that's right RealSolid ...

Even at 7 block reward, the inflation is still working on the SC price.  It was once 0.018 now it is 0.0095.  The economy can't really flourish, until you can save.  The owners of existing coins owe nothing to future miners, other than minimum fee to maintain the network.  Suppose you buy 1000 BTC for $1000 or sell a programming service for 100 BTC.  You don't want any future mining because it will dilute the value of the coins you worked or paid for.  If you go around the world and consider history, you will find the strongest economies and gdp growth always occur in countries with lowest inflation or deflation.   
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December 01, 2011, 06:33:16 PM
 #1434

Now who was it who used that excuse for increasing the value of his coins before? ... ah that's right RealSolid ...

Even at 7 block reward, the inflation is still working on the SC price.  It was once 0.018 now it is 0.0095.  The economy can't really flourish, until you can save.  The owners of existing coins owe nothing to future miners, other than minimum fee to maintain the network.  Suppose you buy 1000 BTC for $1000 or sell a programming service for 100 BTC.  You don't want any future mining because it will dilute the value of the coins you worked or paid for.  If you go around the world and consider history, you will find the strongest economies and gdp growth always occur in countries with lowest inflation or deflation.   

You forget the second reason for currency issuance.  Your currency has no value if people can't acquire it to pay you.  The nominal value of currency is immaterial.  Bitcoin could have been designed on the concept of entire monetary supply = 1 BTC. and each of the block rewards being 0.0000025 BTC each.  Today the price of the single BTC would be ~$18 million.

Bitcoin would still have the same rate of monetary inflation.  If you want to change the growth in the money supply you need to change the slope of the curve not the nominal value.

Cutting a block reward from 48 to 1 certainly does change the curve but there is no free lunch.  You are simply stealing buying power from future miners to increase the buying power of you pre-mined coins.
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December 02, 2011, 12:25:15 AM
 #1435

You forget the second reason for currency issuance.  Your currency has no value if people can't acquire it to pay you.  The nominal value of currency is immaterial.  Bitcoin could have been designed on the concept of entire monetary supply = 1 BTC. and each of the block rewards being 0.0000025 BTC each.  Today the price of the single BTC would be ~$18 million.

Bitcoin would still have the same rate of monetary inflation.  If you want to change the growth in the money supply you need to change the slope of the curve not the nominal value.

Cutting a block reward from 48 to 1 certainly does change the curve but there is no free lunch.  You are simply stealing buying power from future miners to increase the buying power of you pre-mined coins.

If I had the option.  I wish 100% of the coins were pre-mined and the future mine rate was 0 per block.  Suppose someone created a coin with 100,000,000 pre-mined.  The owner of those 100,000,000 want to see the economy grow to make his coins worth more.  That coin would be worth nothing.   Then suppose he put some up for auction maybe 1,000,000 for $1.  A couple nerds buy.  Then a couple nerds set-up a business to do some programming for some coin.  Before you know it it gets on an exchange and it starts to have value.  maybe 0.0034 per BTC.  Suppose it seems to be traded FBX or TBX.   Each of these coins still trades 20 times a day at btc-e.  At this point all new mining hurts the price of the coin.  Without the mining the price would only be dependent on the number of users and trades.  Owners of coin like to see their coin go up.  If they don't think it will go up, they will sell it, only using the coin fiand when they need to.  I think I read an article where a Howard Johnson hotel accepted bitcoin as payment, but when they got the payment they immediately sold the bitcoin for usd.   They had no faith in the currency.   A dropping currency is sold and a rising currency is bought.  Suppose after a couple years the coin is now worth 2.3 BTC per coin.  Since the price rose, the people will want to hold it to delay gratification or to pool money to buy a larger ticket item.   

This is what happen to bitcoin.  The price hit $2 and since the price was rising people wanted it.  it rose to $20 due to supply and demand.  At that point the miners were making as much as the new money coming in.  When the hype money slowed the price of bitcoin dropped.  transactions per day slowed.  As it dropped, it dropped more and more as people sold due to the dropping price and the new mined coins added to the supply.  When it hit $2, new and old buyers came in and started buying again to equal the new mined supply.
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December 02, 2011, 08:18:55 AM
 #1436

Maybe make a existing amount in the network like 100K, and everyone can mine it, at a set rate of lets say 20 per block, and as soon as 100K is distributed out to everyone; it will never ever create anymore.

And once this is fully distributed, then create a fee for per transaction, and
the miners mine off the fees of transactions, so miners can still pull some from others.

This would be a interesting idea to work around.

Call these goldcoins (GC), or something idk

Just an idea.

How is the exchange going for i0coin? is it still be developed?
There is some miners on i0coin, so looks like some life.

And it will hit 150K in a couple days or a week or so.

Keep it going.

Add a icon to client, add some designs, and perhaps ideas.

And lets promote this thing!




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.BITVEST DICE.
HAS BEEN RELEASED!


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December 02, 2011, 08:34:20 AM
 #1437

Goldcoins
-------------

1) Set existing limit of 100K(Prevents Huge supplies and lowering of price if demand remains same)
2) Once fully distributed out, miners then mine off others transactions
3) Set block rate of 100
4) Difficulty adjustment of per 2 hours
5) Difficulty adjustments increase a maximum of 100% per 2 hours
This above difficulty adjustments will help to spread it to the rest
6) Difficulty drops of 10% is maximum( Helps to not have few people get such large amounts, rather helps to distribute more evenly)  
7) Early miners will be setting the price, like 5K for 0.1btc could be a starting price; and then 10 different people
may buy 500 each, and those may spread 500 into another 10 people, etc. (This will help to spread it to everyone; and anyone can buy it,
so if mining stops, there is always some on the market to grab, and this will be a trading currency. Aimed at the goal of having no supply increases, but keeping 100K existing forever, and no more. Bitcoin flaw is a continuing supply increase amount for years to come; resulting in inflation, and devaluation of currency. Goldcoin helps to spread in a quick time, and eliminate flaws.)

Natural trading through markets, will eventually spread it to the rest,
and a scarce amount of 100K, and a unique design, should make many
interested in this concept. No Centralization planed like solidcoin.
Meant to fully support the idea of it.

If someone truly spend the time this thing could be promoted.
And If a large amount of people lets say millions if achieved one day
wanted this, we could always deal with MGC, milliGoldcoins.
1 MGC= 0.0001 GC

Set up
----------
1) Make logos (Gold->Stable->Value)
2) Make Graphs pointing Bitcoin price crash to increasing supply
3) Promotion of client, logos, its own site. (Example: www.goldcoins.org)
4) Spread the word

The idea master of this is me. If someone wishes to build upon this and actually wants to promote this; you may use it if i receive a donation tab, on all clients, exchanges, and a 0.1% fee per block towards the idea master. (This is way less then Solidcoin 5% fees){0.001% fee is upon transactions once all 100K is given out}



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.BITVEST DICE.
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Rainbot
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doublec
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December 02, 2011, 08:48:39 AM
 #1438

The idea master of this is me. If someone wishes to build upon this and actually wants to promote this; you may use it if i receive 5K donation from the coder for the currency GC
How would the coder get 5K without premining? And if they did premine that'd be 5% of the total money supply. You might want to start a new thread on it if you want to get interest and discussion.
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December 02, 2011, 08:53:50 AM
 #1439

How is the exchange going for i0coin? is it still be developed?
There is some miners on i0coin, so looks like some life.
markm posted about an open transactions based exchange for i0coin which I believe is available now. I don't know how it works though as I haven't tried it. As you say block 150,000 is getting close for the timetravel fix and merge mining at block 160,000. I'm open to suggestions for changes to the client if you have any.
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December 02, 2011, 09:01:12 AM
 #1440

*The idea master of this is me. If someone wishes to build upon this and actually wants to promote this; you may use it if i receive a donation tab, on all clients, exchanges, and a 0.1% fee per block towards the idea master. (This is way less then Solidcoin 5% fees){0.001% fee is upon transactions once all 100K is given out}*

Updated set of rules.

This prevents no pre-mined, and 50 times less then solidcoin. Donation would be very small amounts, and some bucks would help me to put some effort into promoting Goldcoin as well.

Doublec, think you can code this?

And put a donation tab for yourself as well.




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HAS BEEN RELEASED!


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Rainbot
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