Why Bitcoin is doomed to fail, and there's nothing you can do about it.

[augustocroppo]

There is no selling price "5. Tax deducted from selling price".  This law only applies to trades done with money.
The key to the law is here "and pays, or becomes liable to pay, the tax imposed under this section".  For a person to become liable to 'pay', there needs to be money involved.  No money, no liability.

Yep, but BTC is still traded for money, not potatoes or cabbages. So tax will be eventually applied, soon or later.

[1714772088]

1714772088

[1714772088]

1714772088

[taltamir]

There is no selling price "5. Tax deducted from selling price".  This law only applies to trades done with money.

So what? I wasn't weighing in on the argument one way or another, just disagreeing with the statement of

It's like wanting to tax someone for trading a potato for a cabbage.

I just bought some at the store and had to pay a tax on both

[ainz]

Don't use metaphors in online debate.
There are literal flat earthers out there.
People will think you mean it literally.

Aspergers Syndrome much?

[Coin_Master]

I just bought some at the store and had to pay a tax on both

You bought potatoes and cabbages with Bitcoin?  You are not even on the same subject!
He was talking about swapping potatoes for cabbages.  You are talking about buying food with money.
Let me spell it out for you slow people.  "The Government does not tax bartered items"
If you paid with money, this subject does not include you.

[Coin_Master]

Yep, but BTC is still traded for money, not potatoes or cabbages. So tax will be eventually applied, soon or later.

It is for now.  But what happens when there is no need to exchange Bitcoin for money to buy things.  Bitpay has over 10000 merchants that accept Bitcoin directly, this number is growing daily.
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/7023/bitpay-surpasses-10000-merchants/
Imagine when you can buy things from the local store with Bitcoin.  Until Bitcoin is recognized legally as a currency, all trades done with Bitcoin are to be considered bartered trades, no tax applies.

[augustocroppo]

It is for now.  But what happens when there is no need to exchange Bitcoin for money to buy things.  Bitpay has over 10000 merchants that accept Bitcoin directly, this number is growing daily.
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/7023/bitpay-surpasses-10000-merchants/
Imagine when you can buy things from the local store with Bitcoin.  Until Bitcoin is recognized legally as a currency, all trades done with Bitcoin are to be considered bartered trades, no tax applies.

Bitcoin it will never be treated at the same level as fiat money. Therefore there will be always necessary to exchange BTC for any fiat currency. That is what Bitpay does, it help merchants to receive fiat money after an on-the-fly exchange for BTC.

You are failing to understand that BTC never will be legally recognized as fiat currency because the BTC supply cannot be controlled by any central bank.

By the way, BTC is a medium of exchange used primarily to buy and sell fiat currency. This has nothing to do with barter. Everyone in need of BTC needs to pay for that with fiat currency. Even if someone accepts cabbages and potatoes to sell BTC, at some point that BTC will be exchanged by fiat currency.

If you think that tax is not applied when trades are done with BTC, you are completely misinformed. The only situation where tax is not applied is when someone trades BTC for another alternative medium of exchange, such as LTC. Because there is no laws governing the trades of "virtual currencies", that could be considered a barter. However once the trades involves any another good tax will be applied if that results in profit.

Ask your self: if BTC is so good for tax evasion, why are not Google using it? It is well know that companies like Google do whatever they can to evade tax. So why are not Google accepting BTC?

[devphp]

Even if someone accepts cabbages and potatoes to sell BTC, at some point that BTC will be exchanged by fiat currency.

You're right, but only up to a point where fiat currency becomes worthless that nobody cares about it any more. This takes a few years usually when one country is involved. How long it'll take when the whole world is printing like crazy, who knows, but it'll be epic, especially since now the reserve currency (USD) is suffering from this disease. Hopefully by then cryptos have become an established alternative to save in. There'll be few sellers then who will be accepting fiat for their cabbage or potatoes, and each day they'll want more of that fiat. Not all of them will accept cryptos either, by the way.

History shows that debt problem is almost always solved through printing of fiat on a massive scale or, sometimes, with defaulting on debt obligations, both solutions are fatal for fiat. That's when you won't buy any cabbage for fiat. It'll be a slow and gradual process to that point though, enough time to re-group and re-adjust saving and spending habits.

There is a great novel - The Black Obelisk, that gives a picture of what can be expected when hyperinflation hits. Fascinating read, doesn't matter it's an account of an almost a century ago past events, it shows how money dies, day by day, when potatoes or cigarettes are a better currency than fiat paper.

[Coin_Master]

Bitcoin it will never be treated at the same level as fiat money.
You are failing to understand that BTC never will be legally recognized as fiat currency
Ask your self: if BTC is so good for tax evasion, why are not Google using it? It is well know that companies like Google do whatever they can to evade tax. So why are not Google accepting BTC?

Do not be so sure, Bitcoin has already been recognized as legal tender in Germany.  It cannot be considered a currency yet because by definition, as well as being a "medium of exchange", a currency must have "General acceptance or use".  Although we are not there yet, Bitcoin's acceptance will continue to grow.
Bitcoin Is Recognized As "Legal Tender" In Germany - http://www.zerohedge.com/node/477785
Bitcoins are now "legal tender" in germany - http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1r6716/
Bitcoin now LEGAL Currency in Germany - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okNhH7EoV6I
Bitcoin recognized by Germany - http://www.cnbc.com/id/100971898
Who said anything about tax evasion, there is no tax on bartered trades, if you want bartered trades to be a 'taxable event' you need to lobby your local politicians, and get the law changed.  Until then swapping Bitcoin for any other good is not a 'taxable event'.  Why do you think they are not taxing Bitcoin right now?

That is what Bitpay does, it help merchants to receive fiat money after an on-the-fly exchange for BTC.

Wrong. BitPay is a merchant gateway, they provide tools for businesses to accept Bitcoin.  That does not mean they necessarily convert to fiat money.
Option 1: Forward to My Bitcoin Wallet
"BitPay will forward your bitcoins to your wallet address on file."
https://bitpay.com/bitcoin-direct-deposit
When I mentioned BitPay in my previous post I was trying to illustrate that the number of merchants that know about Bitcoin, and are prepared to accept Bitcoin is growing. When there are enough manufactures, wholesalers and retailers that accept Bitcoin, there will be no need to convert Bitcoin into fiat money.
If you read my previous post again, you will see I agreed with you.

It is for now.  But what happens when there is no need to exchange Bitcoin for money to buy things.

[rext]

Overstock is using them now, Zynga is taking a good look at it, facebook is showing interest, Singapore seems to have paved the way for tax regulations which further confirms the perpetual survival of bitcoin, New York City has gotten its first Bitcoin ATM.

Basically, the way I see it, bitcoin will gradually be accepted as the norm. It will be an alternative payment method for your daily lives. The day will come when we can enter a shop or a supermarket, get our stuff, just place our phones  over the bitcoin payment processor counter, tap accept, bitcoin gets transferred to the company or to a payment processor company, say BitPay, you walk away with the purchases you have just bought.

When paypal first came out, no one thought much about it either. Now it's already a market leader.

[Coin_Master]

New York City has gotten its first Bitcoin ATM.

Well done New York.  I agree, Bitcoin will continue to be accepted by more merchants as time goes on.  One of the biggest motivators for merchants to adopt Bitcoin is the lower fees.  For those of you on this forum that do not own a business, you probably would not understand.  Most businesses will pay hundreds of dollars a month to have credit and debit card facilities, then there are additional fees if the customer purchases with a credit card.
Imagine this scenario, a customer walks into a retail store to buy a television for 1000 dollars.  He pays with his credit card, and the store loses 3.5% to VISA, that is 35 dollars (for one transaction). That is the Real World.
Now imagine the same man, in the same store, buying the same television, with Bitcoin.  The store pays 0.0001 BTC (10 cents) in fees.
@Augusto Croppo
That is why most businesses will want to accept Bitcoin and not money.  Because money costs them too much to accept.
It is almost 'Game Over' for cash and money in the traditional sense.

[taltamir]

I just bought some at the store and had to pay a tax on both

You bought potatoes and cabbages with Bitcoin?  You are not even on the same subject!
He was talking about swapping potatoes for cabbages.  You are talking about buying food with money.
Let me spell it out for you slow people.  "The Government does not tax bartered items"
If you paid with money, this subject does not include you.

Thank you for spelling it out for me, your position was unclear and now it isn't.
Tell me, since you argue that bitcoin isn't money:
1. What is it
2. What about all the governments that have declared it is, in fact, money?

[augustocroppo]

You're right, but only up to a point where fiat currency becomes worthless that nobody cares about it any more.

Once a certain currency becomes "worthless", the responsible central banks under the respective government directions will issue another.Have you even been aware that countries like Brazil changed they fiat currency many times when one became "worthless"?

[augustocroppo]

Bitcoin Is Recognized As "Legal Tender" In Germany - http://www.zerohedge.com/node/477785

You are completely confused. Read the article again.

Fiat money ≠ Private money

When I mentioned BitPay in my previous post I was trying to illustrate that the number of merchants that know about Bitcoin, and are prepared to accept Bitcoin is growing. When there are enough manufactures, wholesalers and retailers that accept Bitcoin, there will be no need to convert Bitcoin into fiat money.

Yeah, I would like a situation like that, however you forgot one thing: diversity. What makes you think that a considerable number of business in many sectors of different economies will only choose BTC? Why not LTC? Or even DOGE? (ROFL!)

BTC is not the only "private money" available in the list of options that all business have. They could even do they own "private money".

[augustocroppo]

Basically, the way I see it, bitcoin will gradually be accepted as the norm. It will be an alternative payment method for your daily lives. The day will come when we can enter a shop or a supermarket, get our stuff, just place our phones  over the bitcoin payment processor counter, tap accept, bitcoin gets transferred to the company or to a payment processor company, say BitPay, you walk away with the purchases you have just bought.

LOL!

No.

Keep in mind, as more and more layers of service are necessary to optimize the utilization of BTC as payment method, more and more fees will be aggregated over one single transaction.

When paypal first came out, no one thought much about it either. Now it's already a market leader.

Paypal ≠ Private Money

[whtchocla7e]

Even if someone accepts cabbages and potatoes to sell BTC, at some point that BTC will be exchanged by fiat currency.

You're right, but only up to a point where fiat currency becomes worthless that nobody cares about it any more. This takes a few years usually when one country is involved

More like a few decades.

[simbirianin]

*yawn*
[/qu
ot
Гocпoдa мaйнepы,y мeня дeлoвoe пpeдлoжeниe.Зa 20BTC я пocoдeйcтвyю и oбecпeчy c тaкoй жe или бoльшeй cyммы дocтoйнyю пpибыль в тeчeнии длитeльнoгo вpeмeни.Moй cкaйп safonofs59
Кoличecтвo мecт oгpaничeнo.Cпacибo.

[devphp]

You're right, but only up to a point where fiat currency becomes worthless that nobody cares about it any more.

Once a certain currency becomes "worthless", the responsible central banks under the respective government directions will issue another.Have you even been aware that countries like Brazil changed they fiat currency many times when one became "worthless"?

So far in history we've only witnessed cases of certain countries' currencies going to dustbin and resurrected with the loans from international financial organizations willing to provide those loans to countries, but what I am talking about in my previous post is the situation when the reserve currency itself is going to dustbin, who would back up other countries' currencies then? That's when your fiat wouldn't buy you a cabbage, actually you might even get your face punched for offering to pay in fiat for that cabbage

I don't even want to comment on your 'responsible central banks' phrase, it's too funny, I wouldn't know where to start.

Even if someone accepts cabbages and potatoes to sell BTC, at some point that BTC will be exchanged by fiat currency.

You're right, but only up to a point where fiat currency becomes worthless that nobody cares about it any more. This takes a few years usually when one country is involved

More like a few decades.

It's actually been decades now that the reserve currency has been depreciating in real purchase power terms, since Nixon canceled the Bretton Woods system in 1971. Since then all currencies have been living on borrowed time.

When I said 'a few years', I meant the final accelerating hyperinflation period, when hyperflation becomes noticeable to everyone, who goes shopping for groceries.

[Coin_Master]

Bitcoin Is Recognized As "Legal Tender" In Germany - http://www.zerohedge.com/node/477785

You are completely confused. Read the article again.

Fiat money ≠ Private money

I can read it again for you.  I will even quote it for you.
"Virtual currency bitcoin has been recognized by the German Finance Ministry as a “unit of account”, meaning it is now legal tender and can be used for tax and trading purposes in the country."

Perhaps you do not know the meaning of "legal tender"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender
"Legal tender is a medium of payment allowed by law or recognized by a legal system"

You cannot argue that it is not legal tender.  Private money = Legal Tender (is that clear enough for you).
Bitcoin is a medium of payment allowed by law and recognized by a legal system.  Bitcoin = Legal Tender
What you fail to understand is that it does not have to be a recognized foreign currency to be legal tender.  

For it to be a "currency" it would need to meet another criteria of being "Generally accepted and widely used", which it is not yet.

[augustocroppo]

So far in history we've only witnessed cases of certain countries' currencies going to dustbin and resurrected with the loans from international financial organizations willing to provide those loans to countries, but what I am talking about in my previous post is the situation when the reserve currency itself is going to dustbin, who would back up other countries' currencies then? That's when your fiat wouldn't buy you a cabbage, actually you might even get your face punched for offering to pay in fiat for that cabbage

I don't even want to comment on your 'responsible central banks' phrase, it's too funny, I wouldn't know where to start.

LOL (Again).

No.

Reserve currency ≠ Fiat currency

This whole conversation started with you stating that "until Bitcoin is recognized legally as a currency, all trades done with Bitcoin are to be considered bartered trades, no tax applies" bullshit. Your doom's day scenario where all world economies will destabilize at the same time and everyone will suddenly only use only BTC to trade is far fetched. 

It's actually been decades now that the reserve currency has been depreciating in real purchase power terms, since Nixon canceled the Bretton Woods system in 1971. Since then all currencies have been living on borrowed time.

When I said 'a few years', I meant the final accelerating hyperinflation period, when hyperflation becomes noticeable to everyone, who goes shopping for groceries.

Depreciation of reserve currency ≠ Price inflation of goods

[Coin_Master]

@Augusto Croppo
There is a war going on man.  Time to pick a side.
What was the quote from that buffoon George W. Bush?
"you're either with us, or against us"