Why Bitcoin is doomed to fail, and there's nothing you can do about it.

[jbreher]

To my understanding, in the USA, the IRS considers barter a taxable event upon both parties to the barter transaction. If anyone has a citation proving otherwise, I'd certainly appreciate it if you'd share.

[devphp]

So far in history we've only witnessed cases of certain countries' currencies going to dustbin and resurrected with the loans from international financial organizations willing to provide those loans to countries, but what I am talking about in my previous post is the situation when the reserve currency itself is going to dustbin, who would back up other countries' currencies then? That's when your fiat wouldn't buy you a cabbage, actually you might even get your face punched for offering to pay in fiat for that cabbage

I don't even want to comment on your 'responsible central banks' phrase, it's too funny, I wouldn't know where to start.

LOL (Again).

No.

Reserve currency ≠ Fiat currency

This whole conversation started with you stating that "until Bitcoin is recognized legally as a currency, all trades done with Bitcoin are to be considered bartered trades, no tax applies" bullshit. Your doom's day scenario where all world economies will destabilize at the same time and everyone will suddenly only use only BTC to trade is far fetched. 

If you live on the same planet as me, reserve currency (the one that international trade is settled in) of this planet is still USD (although there's been steps by other countries in the last 2 years, especially China, to move away from USD), which is a fiat currency. We don't need to theorize here of what reserve currency can or cannot be. We're talking about what it is now. USD, which is a reserve currency of this planet, is fiat now, backed by nothing, unless you count aircraft carriers, of course.

By the way, I didn't say what you quote me to say, it was someone else. And I never said everyone will use BTC only to trade, because that'd be utter nonsense to say. Cryptos will have their place as supplementary currencies, but I don't believe they will ever be universally accepted, or even by any significant number of people.

It's actually been decades now that the reserve currency has been depreciating in real purchase power terms, since Nixon canceled the Bretton Woods system in 1971. Since then all currencies have been living on borrowed time.

When I said 'a few years', I meant the final accelerating hyperinflation period, when hyperflation becomes noticeable to everyone, who goes shopping for groceries.

Depreciation of reserve currency ≠ Price inflation of goods

For all practical purposes depreciation of reserve currency that other fiats are pegged to in one way or another = price inflation of goods, both in that reserve currency and pegged local fiats. Again, if you ever did groceries, especially over the past 2-3 years, you'd notice either higher prices or smaller packages per serving for the same price.

[Coin_Master]

To my understanding, in the USA, the IRS considers barter a taxable event upon both parties to the barter transaction. If anyone has a citation proving otherwise, I'd certainly appreciate it if you'd share.

The United States of America constitute less than 5% of the people on this planet.  Who cares what the IRS consider barter to be?
They have a whole bunch of stupid rules, capital gains taxes, gift taxes, the list goes on.  The short answer is yes, they consider barter to be a 'taxable event'.  Where I live, we do not, nor do we have capital gains taxes or gift taxes.
Here is a link to the information you requested
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
"Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber exchanging plumbing services for the dental services of a dentist. You must include in gross income in the year of receipt the fair market value of goods or services received from bartering."

[augustocroppo]

If you live on the same planet as me, reserve currency (the one that international trade is settled in) of this planet is still USD (although there's been steps by other countries in the last 2 years, especially China, to move away from USD), which is a fiat currency. We don't need to theorize here of what reserve currency can or cannot be. We're talking about what it is now. USD, which is a reserve currency of this planet, is fiat now, backed by nothing, unless you count aircraft carriers, of course.

You are missing the point again. The initial discussion was about why trades with BTC can be taxed. You are going off the topic. Go back and read the posts again, locate yourself. BTC is also "backed by nothing". This fact alone do not hinders in any way the capacity of elected governments to collect tax from trades done with BTC.  

[augustocroppo]

@Augusto Croppo
There is a war going on man.  Time to pick a side.
What was the quote from that buffoon George W. Bush?
"you're either with us, or against us"

This is a forum, not a battlefield. There is no sides to be take. Bitcoin is a software, not a weapon. I have no qualms about USD being the most utilized reserve currency as have no qualm for BTC being purely virtual. Both could disappear from existence and I would rest peacefully.

[QuestionAuthority]

Thank goodness The Foundation is working on the problems.

Even though they may all be in prison soon like Charlie, they have sworn to continue their work on the problems.

[devphp]

If you live on the same planet as me, reserve currency (the one that international trade is settled in) of this planet is still USD (although there's been steps by other countries in the last 2 years, especially China, to move away from USD), which is a fiat currency. We don't need to theorize here of what reserve currency can or cannot be. We're talking about what it is now. USD, which is a reserve currency of this planet, is fiat now, backed by nothing, unless you count aircraft carriers, of course.

You are missing the point again. The initial discussion was about why trades with BTC can be taxed. You are going off the topic. Go back and read the posts again, locate yourself. BTC is also "backed by nothing". This fact alone do not hinders in any way the capacity of elected governments to collect tax from trades done with BTC.  

I know what the initial discussion was about. But there are other aspects to it, and I chose to discuss those that were not yet discussed, which you happily replied to and now you suggest we don't go on with that? Sure, I don't mind, we can quit right here, if you're out of arguments.

BTC is also backed by nothing, that's true, but BTC has no liabilities behind it, and that's a big difference. However, BTC has other disadvantages, which I won't mention here. I agree that governments wil try to tax trades done in BTC, no reason for them not to.

[jbreher]

To my understanding, in the USA, the IRS considers barter a taxable event upon both parties to the barter transaction. If anyone has a citation proving otherwise, I'd certainly appreciate it if you'd share.

The United States of America constitute less than 5% of the people on this planet.  Who cares what the IRS consider barter to be?
They have a whole bunch of stupid rules, capital gains taxes, gift taxes, the list goes on.  The short answer is yes, they consider barter to be a 'taxable event'.  Where I live, we do not, nor do we have capital gains taxes or gift taxes.
Here is a link to the information you requested
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
"Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber exchanging plumbing services for the dental services of a dentist. You must include in gross income in the year of receipt the fair market value of goods or services received from bartering."

Thank you, Coin_Master. My post was meant to respond to a number of other posts in this thread, which I inferred to be from US dwellers (perhaps I was mistaken), wherein they claimed that barter is not taxable.

Mind you, I personally find such policies to be reprehensible. Further, I challenge anyone to trace for me how such policies follow either USC or CFR. However, such are the entrenched policies that have been in place for several decades.

Note to US denizens: _gross income_ is distinctly different from _taxable income_ under both USC and CFR. The trip from gross to taxable is where things get interesting...

[jbreher]

Thank goodness The Foundation is working on the problems.

much ha

[JohnyBigs]

point number 1 being proven right every single day, don't worry though to the moon! You geniuses need to stop with your America envy, AMERICA isn't the world!!! Guess what it is, you can cry about it all you want. America's arm can reach all over the world, especially the 3rd world POS countries or any developed country for that matter, where they can come and kidnap you and bring you to trial here, and there isn't shit your country is going to do about it.

[FalconFly]

To my understanding, in the USA, the IRS considers barter a taxable event upon both parties to the barter transaction. If anyone has a citation proving otherwise, I'd certainly appreciate it if you'd share.

The United States of America constitute less than 5% of the people on this planet.  Who cares what the IRS consider barter to be?
They have a whole bunch of stupid rules, capital gains taxes, gift taxes, the list goes on.  The short answer is yes, they consider barter to be a 'taxable event'.  Where I live, we do not, nor do we have capital gains taxes or gift taxes.
Here is a link to the information you requested
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
"Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber exchanging plumbing services for the dental services of a dentist. You must include in gross income in the year of receipt the fair market value of goods or services received from bartering."

Just beware that the creation of the unconstitutional IRS was passed with the same bill that created the unconstitutional FED in 1913... No coincidence.

The associated "authorities" in other countries have different names and dates of installment - but serve exactly the same purposes and route the cash into exactly the same structures, which are controlled by exactly the same breed of colluded central bankers. Most governments are merely muppets that dance as they are instructed to, assisted by mass media owned by just about the same people worldwide. No coincidence either.

To me, it's like comparing different "brands" of shampoo, washing powder or soap... All looking different, carry different languages, advertised and sold in various nations... all very likely owned and operated by one of the global MegaCorps (in this example Unilever).

[stan.stan]

I don't see bitcoin failing like the other ecurrencies (LR, EGOLD, EBULLION). Dealings through bitcoin are well scrutinized and can't be used for money laundering so i don't see where the problem would emerge from.

[BADecker]

1. IT'S A DECENTRALIZED CURRENCY

Let's all open up our history books and see when the 99% won against the 1%? Almost never, and even when they did “win” it was basically the 1% handing off power to another form, and still running it behind the scenes just to appease the people.

Why would anyone want to open the history books? The 1% who won wrote and published them. There are so many lies scattered among the truth in the history books, that it's hard to tell what the truth was!

Of course, this is the same reason that Bitcoin and the Internet stand a chance of winning. After all, when you take freedom away from the people, the people don't flourish for you. So what do you do? You give them the illusion of freedom so that they work hard for you, and in doing so, you give them some real freedom.

What happens next is that the people start to want more freedom. But you can't ever give them the illusion of 100% freedom without giving them 100% freedom. This is why the 1% ultimately fail every time.

[BADecker]

To my understanding, in the USA, the IRS considers barter a taxable event upon both parties to the barter transaction. If anyone has a citation proving otherwise, I'd certainly appreciate it if you'd share.

The United States of America constitute less than 5% of the people on this planet.  Who cares what the IRS consider barter to be?
They have a whole bunch of stupid rules, capital gains taxes, gift taxes, the list goes on.  The short answer is yes, they consider barter to be a 'taxable event'.  Where I live, we do not, nor do we have capital gains taxes or gift taxes.
Here is a link to the information you requested
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html
"Bartering occurs when you exchange goods or services without exchanging money. An example of bartering is a plumber exchanging plumbing services for the dental services of a dentist. You must include in gross income in the year of receipt the fair market value of goods or services received from bartering."

Just beware that the creation of the unconstitutional IRS was passed with the same bill that created the unconstitutional FED in 1913... No coincidence.

The associated "authorities" in other countries have different names and dates of installment - but serve exactly the same purposes and route the cash into exactly the same structures, which are controlled by exactly the same breed of colluded central bankers. Most governments are merely muppets that dance as they are instructed to, assisted by mass media owned by just about the same people worldwide. No coincidence either.

To me, it's like comparing different "brands" of shampoo, washing powder or soap... All looking different, carry different languages, advertised and sold in various nations... all very likely owned and operated by one of the global MegaCorps (in this example Unilever).

If you are interested about how to bypass government, consider this. The constitution, Article 1, Section 10, Clause 1 has a statement in it that says: "No State shall ... make any ... Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts ..." The Federal Government has been adjudicated to be a state. See: Enright v. U.S., D.C.N.Y., 437 F.Supp. 580, 581.

Here's what to get pushed through the courts. Form contracts for any business that you do with other people. Let the contracts invoke the above Article 1 wording along with wording stating that it is the intent of the contract and the parties to the contract that no state laws apply except upon an explicit allowance by the parties to the contract that they are accepting certain stated laws. Throw in the wording that the Federal Government is a state. Say, also, that not answering a challenge by some some state authority in no way waives any part of the contract.

Apply the above with enumerations of specific laws that you do not want to apply to the contract or the parties thereof - IRS taxation, and business licensing, for example.

Doing this will make your Bitcoin transacting to match your terms and not government terms.

[benjamindees]

Just beware that the creation of the unconstitutional IRS was passed with the same bill that created the unconstitutional FED in 1913... No coincidence.

That's because income tax only exists to offset the inherent fraud (money-printing) of fiat money.  It is completely irrelevant to Bitcoin.

And barter is not the same thing as trade.

[jbreher]

Here's what to get pushed through the courts. Form contracts for any business that you do with other people. Let the contracts invoke the above Article 1 wording along with wording stating that it is the intent of the contract and the parties to the contract that no state laws apply except upon an explicit allowance by the parties to the contract that they are accepting certain stated laws. Throw in the wording that the Federal Government is a state. Say, also, that not answering a challenge by some some state authority in no way waives any part of the contract.

I'd like to see some example language -- pursuant to your idea above -- that has been tested in the courts.

No, really - I would _like_ to. I'm just skeptical that such could withstand the abomination our courts have become.

[MikeyVeez]

BUMP for being spot on. Bitcoin drops 80% of it's value within minutes, I'm sure that's a great selling point to the masses. Mass Adoption here we come!!

[MikeyVeez]

LMAO, ohh man OP do you have magical super kinetic powers? Ohh no it's just called common sense. Mt. Gox says there is a flaw in Bitcoin, which we all already know as there are many flaws.

What is Gavin's response? NO THERE ISN'T A FLAW IN BITCOIN, SO WE WILL IGNORE IT JUST LIKE WE HAVE IGNORED EVERY OTHER FLAW IN IT SINCE I TOOK OVER.

The final gasps of air for Bitcoin, an asshole incompetent developer who meets with the CIA and the CFR lmao, and says don't worry just explaining Bitcoin to them. Explaining how we're going to destroy Bitcoin and replace it with our "safe" government digital currencies.

Enjoy the ride BitTards.

[jongameson]

because the dollar also exists, i like the cut of your jibb  

[augustocroppo]

Looking back I read so many fanatical idiots trying to bash the OP... I wonder how they feel right now when most of the OP predictions are becoming reality.

By the way, QFT:

But that would seem to have little relationship to AppleCoin.

I didn't quite understand everything with Apple coin, as there won't be any mining involved with amazons or apples digital currency, but the thing that I can see it as a negative to Bitcoin is that with Applecoin and Amazoncoin people can actually use it to purchase thousands of goods and services.

Again these are small minuscule issues to Bitcoin, the others mentioned are far more important and devastating.