[ANN][PRT] Particle | CPU/GPU, Fast, Easy Mine, * NO PREMINE * | Official Thread

[ycm82]

Moonmoon  I apologize if I missed something, but the next version will be a beta or alpha?
And when you will release next version of the wallet?

moonmoon,the same question, release next version of the wallet  quckly!

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[Jean Bax]

You say miners are mining because of market price. That is false. I mine because i see a future in PRT, just solely because of price. You state you are an investor, so how can you say what miners are mining for?

Quoting myself:

They mine profitable coins or coins they trust.

Also i see no reason thsi would make an investor lose trust? Yes maybe the "unintended" block change would fall under this "lose trust" category, however the change is NOT, i repeat...NOT increasing PRT count, we are just shortening the time frame of which the final coin will be distributed out.

Maths, maths.
90 every 15s = ((60*60*24*365) / 15) * 90 = 189.216.000 coin per year.
300 (as example) every 15s = ((60*60*24*365) / 15) * 300 = 630.720.000. Not hard to understand, even is the cap is the same, the impact is huge over the time.

As stated by matauc, changing the block reward has occurred on BIG coins before such as LTC and we did not see a severe drop on price. I personally do not see a reason why a price drop would occur.
The coin holding community of PRT is resiliant to selling their stashes at current prices, which means ones who want to BUY PRT is stuck continuiously increasing their buy price until one of the miners decides to sell it.
I sell anywhere from 10k-30k REGARDLESS of price for every 100k coins i mine. The reason being i want people to BUY the coin and i want the markets to continuiously change on pricing. It gives me a sense of security on more people having coins to go around.
On a small side note, selling 100 PRT increments for a total of 30k is VERY time consuming and demanding. I specifically dig through the exchanges to find specific buyers of this coin to sell my PRT - i dont want one user to potentially gain the 30k that im distributing out.

Particle is not LTC. I know the community is nice, that why I put money into since a month.
I know how this coin is good.
But here you're touching a sensitive point that going hurt. I need protect my funds.

I hope you're right and I'm wrong. I'm out, in a 'wait 'n see' mode. Maybe you'll not understand me as I don't understand you. The thing is you'll have to deal with investors living the market on short-medium, starting with me.

[Hilux74]

Healthy discussion with valid points from both sides.  Best not to make any quick decisions and think about it for a while.

At 180 or 360 it is still quite minimal compared to initial block rewards (50,000) so there would not actually be that much extra being sold than would already.  I strongly dought there would be any downward pressure on market price as a result.   

At 180/360 miners mining purely to dump for profit likely still would not be mining PRT at its present price, as there likely would still be more profitable alternatives.

[matauc12]

Block reward is a specification that you should not change at this point, it's manipulation, coin would have a different value ... it's just not an option.

If you don't want read my wall-text, here the conclusion ^

have to explain why having no miners isn't good...

Have to explain why miners mine -> market.

The proposed changed is simply keeping the reward a little higher

90 to 3xx is 'a little' ?

The rest you saying is pretty right, maybe.

I'll only give my point of view about this.
But I already left the market. I'm putting big money into some altcoins I believe, PRT is one of them.
So after 1 month, I'm steping back. I'm not complaining or crying. I lost not really money. I hope my witness will help you to don't do this mistake.

You forgot to do maths or analysis before minding or changing the block reward. Behind you, a market with thousand of dollars and cny is working. The market health is very nice at the moment.
Say "I think xxx is good" or "yyy looks nice" isn't enough.

You underestimate very hard the impact of the market and the number of peoples like me involved. God thanks I got this new in the firsts.

Changing the block reward isn't a solution. Will you change the spec each time the hashrate look not good to you ? Just release your wallet, continue work this way, you're just make you busy.
Your popularity is solid, your coin is far away from all the shit we have here. Peoples know it, your market is very NICE since the last cut, and undervalued atm but pushing up.

This kind of decision is breaking trust between you and me. You're screwing all peoples who put money into the coins and who keep working on it. You'll make peoples losing money, and you'll break more trust.

Miners are mining because of the market price short-medium-long term. They mine profitable coins or coins they trust. Miners are selling to guys like me.

You may lost some of your big investors on short-medium term. The recover will hard and will give you lot more work.
You think more miners will come if you change the block reward ? Maybe that's true. Other-side: lots will leave to because of the market.

You'll gain nothing, you only have to lost doing this. You're doing a huge mistake and wrong maths.

Also, as someone putting money into a coin, i personally have difficulty to believe in a coin, and in a team with devs changing hardcore specs at random time for no emergency reason. Manipulation it is.
Specs is a big factor in my maths when I watch a market.
I have to take a decision, I can't ignore this. If I'm alone to go this way, you're safe, but if more big investor think like me, man, good luck.

Confidence in the coin increase

Yes, peoples trust, I feel it on the market, it's pushing up.
As said, I think it's a bad move. You will tackle this.

Seriously, point out the damage it could do to change the reward... I'll tell you what would happen if we don't change it....

Reward becomes too low to be worth mining it, so miners leave for a more profitable coin, coin becomes too vulnerable to attacks and becomes a major security risk, people lose confidence and coin plummets. Your investment is now worth 0.

All of that can be avoided by doing something that HAS VERY LITTLE IMPACT ON THE MARKET. THE FACT THIS IS ADDRESSED BEFORE IT BECOMES AN ISSUE IS A GOOD THINGS.  You don't want to fix something after it breaks, you want to prevent it from breaking.

Also you quoted me out of context.... And the change to reward is minor considering 90% of the mining has been done at an average much higher than the suggested change. Everything is relative
Prolonging a sustainable distribution for a little longer is better for the coin at this point.

I don't see why you are so reluctant to it. I addressed pretty much every concern that could occur. Also note the part where I said bigger reward will help the volume it is lacking right now, it won't be so much sell pressure as buyable volume (because right now it's hard to buy with this low volume)

I should add, if you followed this thread at all, you'll see that pretty much the only concern raised in 3000 posts was the distribution coming to a stale right about now. (Being the only concern over a coin should be a big confidence booster in itself), this issue is being addressed.

I have more than you can imagine invested in this coin and I'm not mining, yet I still want more to go to miners because ITS THE RIGHT THINGS TO DO RIGHT NOW.

[Jean Bax]

Healthy discussion with valid points from both sides.  Best not to make any quick decisions and think about it for a while.

At 180 or 360 it is still quite minimal compared to initial block rewards (50,000) so there would not actually be that much extra being sold than would already.  I strongly dought there would be any downward pressure on market price as a result.  

At 180/360 miners mining purely to dump for profit likely still would not be mining PRT at its present price, as there likely would still be more profitable alternatives.

Smart reply

Maths based on 1 month as reference.

Block per month: (60*60*24*30)/15 = 172800

With 90/block:
172800 * 90 = 15.552.000 / month
+extra blocks
172 * 1000 = 172.000 from extra blocks
total = ~15.724.800 / month

With 180/block:
172800 * 180 = 31.104.000

With 360/block:
172800 * 360 = 62.208.000

It's not about people dumps by fear or so. But the market will naturally adjust lower and find a new balance.
But this won't happen so easy in people mind.

First you want to find a new balance, when you have a good balance right now.
By only doubling the reward you're clearly screwing hard actual investors. I say again we are speaking of thousand dollars in the market, they won't like this news badly.
You change the rules of a game already running.

Maybe it will okay for small investors who trust in the coin, but go tell this to peoples buying hard at the moment. They buy, maybe hold but the market fate is a climb down.

Go tell this to the guy ~insta bought my 900k for ~0.0000026 and to the others will keep buying. Go tell this to the peoples invested about +9000cny this morning gmt+1 on http://www.guogao.com/trade/PRT/ to push the price 0.0095 cny to 0.01 cny and keeping buying. I myself pumped the price 0.0000023 to 0.0000025 and holding support this morning with 2 btc. Understand even if people like PRT, they won't like/want lost money because rules manipulation.

Shame I sold, the market is asking to go up.
Will see what he will ask when people will learn the news.

Atleast, i just would add i like particle a lot from the begin and i'm supporting the coin, but in business i have to protect funds.
I share my point of view to counter peoples who think everything will be alright if the decision is taken.
This will break trust on the market, spread FUD and have a hard time to recover.

[sunfree]

good job!

[dyask]

We could bump it back up to 180 coins, or 360, for a longer period of time?

Let's tackle the block reward first.

I would say that 360 is the minimum. Ideally I would say 780 to attract more miners...

For the period of time I would say at least 3 or 6 more months.

Explain why we have to bump it up?

Because there isn't any profit in mining PRT right now.   Without mining the coin dies as blocks are needed for transactions.   

As a miner I would vote for at least 360.  At 90 I can't mine PRT for a profit, I'm able to gross 2x mining FRQ over PRT.   At 360 PRT per block that would flip the other way assuming the price of PRT holds up.  At 180 it is about break even between the quark based coins.   

[matauc12]

We could bump it back up to 180 coins, or 360, for a longer period of time?

Let's tackle the block reward first.

I would say that 360 is the minimum. Ideally I would say 780 to attract more miners...

For the period of time I would say at least 3 or 6 more months.

Explain why we have to bump it up?

Because there isn't any profit in mining PRT right now.   Without mining the coin dies as blocks are needed for transactions.   

As a miner I would vote for at least 360.  At 90 I can't mine PRT for a profit, I'm able to gross 2x mining FRQ over PRT.   At 360 PRT per block that would flip the other way assuming the price of PRT holds up.  At 180 it is about break even between the quark based coins.   

Well individual reward should come to equilibrium with difficulty, so it's not really gonna be double profit.

[dyask]

I'm feel increasing the block reward will just sacrifice the coin in the future for more hash rate now.  What is the long term point?

It seems that many here don't understand how crypto coins work.  Mining is required to produce blocks that are needed for transactions.   However mining costs money.   Right now PRT holders are expecting miners to lose money so they can benefit from the coin.   The problem particle has is because of the early extremely high awards quickly distributed most of the coin.  

There is basically two choices I see.  
1) Make the coin attractive for mining
2) Force everyone (through the wallet) to participate in some kind of p2p mining.   However the code for that is much more complex, but it seems possible.   For example, one problem that would have to be dealt with is you would get very tiny mining awards that would end up limiting the transaction sizes.

A third approach is that if everyone that wanted the coin to succeed would also mine it.   However that wouldn't be profitable for most people.    Still if enough people did it the network health would no longer be an issue.   I just checked the difficultly and it was at 545.   It tends to cycle up and down.   Anyway clearly some people are still mining.  

[dyask]

We could bump it back up to 180 coins, or 360, for a longer period of time?

Let's tackle the block reward first.

I would say that 360 is the minimum. Ideally I would say 780 to attract more miners...

For the period of time I would say at least 3 or 6 more months.

Explain why we have to bump it up?

Because there isn't any profit in mining PRT right now.   Without mining the coin dies as blocks are needed for transactions.   

As a miner I would vote for at least 360.  At 90 I can't mine PRT for a profit, I'm able to gross 2x mining FRQ over PRT.   At 360 PRT per block that would flip the other way assuming the price of PRT holds up.  At 180 it is about break even between the quark based coins.   

Well individual reward should come to equilibrium with difficulty, so it's not really gonna be double profit.

Yes that is correct.   

[matauc12]

I'm feel increasing the block reward will just sacrifice the coin in the future for more hash rate now.  What is the long term point?

It seems that many here don't understand how crypto coins work.  Mining is required to produce blocks that are needed for transactions.   However mining costs money.   Right now PRT holders are expecting miners to lose money so they can benefit from the coin.   The problem particle has is because of the early extremely high awards quickly distributed most of the coin.  

There is basically two choices I see.  
1) Make the coin attractive for mining
2) Force everyone (through the wallet) to participate in some kind of p2p mining.   However the code for that is much more complex, but it seems possible.   For example, one problem that would have to be dealt with is you would get very tiny mining awards that would end up limiting the transaction sizes.

A third approach is that if everyone that wanted the coin to succeed would also mine it.   However that wouldn't be profitable for most people.    Still if enough people did it the network health would no longer be an issue.   I just checked the difficultly and it was at 545.   It tends to cycle up and down.   Anyway clearly some people are still mining.  

I really like the sum up of this post. It isn't the only option, just probably the most simple at this point. Should we thrive for the simple solution? Most of the time no, but this solution is simple and has much less negative effect than some seem to think.

It's important to realize this change is merely returning the reward to what it was a little while ago. Which still respects the original distribution plan to a large degree. (More than 50% mined in the first couple months). In the grand scheme of things it's merely prolonging a prosperous mining reward for a little while longer while having limited effect on overall distribution.

I'll also add, do you prefer a dead coin that has little rewards or a coin kicking strong with a slightly changed distribution plan? I know I'm for the latter. And that fact alone should drive the price up, not down.

[chowdan]

I'm feel increasing the block reward will just sacrifice the coin in the future for more hash rate now.  What is the long term point?

It seems that many here don't understand how crypto coins work.  Mining is required to produce blocks that are needed for transactions.   However mining costs money.   Right now PRT holders are expecting miners to lose money so they can benefit from the coin.   The problem particle has is because of the early extremely high awards quickly distributed most of the coin.  

There is basically two choices I see.  
1) Make the coin attractive for mining
2) Force everyone (through the wallet) to participate in some kind of p2p mining.   However the code for that is much more complex, but it seems possible.   For example, one problem that would have to be dealt with is you would get very tiny mining awards that would end up limiting the transaction sizes.

A third approach is that if everyone that wanted the coin to succeed would also mine it.   However that wouldn't be profitable for most people.    Still if enough people did it the network health would no longer be an issue.   I just checked the difficultly and it was at 545.   It tends to cycle up and down.   Anyway clearly some people are still mining.  

I really like the sum up of this post. It isn't the only option, just probably the most simple at this point. Should we thrive for the simple solution? Most of the time no, but this solution is simple and has much less negative effect than some seem to think.

It's important to realize this change is merely returning the reward to what it was a little while ago. Which still respects the original distribution plan to a large degree. (More than 50% mined in the first couple months). In the grand scheme of things it's merely prolonging a prosperous mining reward for a little while longer while having limited effect on overall distribution.

I'll also add, do you prefer a dead coin that has little rewards or a coin kicking strong with a slightly changed distribution plan? I know I'm for the latter. And that fact alone should drive the price up, not down.

have to agree with both of you.

I prefer the latter as well.

I am a miner of PRT, not because i want to "get rich" like most people here, but because i see a future in the coin. Yes i lose money every second i mine PRT, but in the long haul, 4 years from now, i can see PRT be a large player in the market. I dont think ill be "rich" per say, but i think i will have my costs covered regardless if that means i am taking a hit in the wallet(I am unemployed and ahve been for the last few months) and so spending personal time AND money to keep my miners on this coin grows harder each day, though i do not quit because its costing me money.

If i wanted to make money, i would be mining LTC or DOGE coin. I can mine those coins at quite a profit and cover all my expenses PLUS grow my stash, hwoever i do not believe in those coins as i believe in PRT.

Rewarding miners now to bring MORE people into this coin is one way we can grow our user base as well as keeping the coin afloat.

As stated before, the way crypocurrencies function is via transactions. Those transactions do NOT occur without miners. Miners do not mine a coin that contains no transactions(why would you?). It goes both ways and we miners need; you investors, and you investors, need miners.

Wihtout miners the coin will fall apart and we will see all our great efforts and ideas of a community and explode like the Space Shuttle  Challenger.

Moonmoon - If we can get this coin growing big enough - or we can get price high enough, we need to start coordinating with manufactures to mass produce USB sticks of some sort to start mailing out to the public - Shit i'd be way happy to go door knocking and hang flyers on peoples doors that have a USB stick that contains an encrypted wallet to kick start people into our coin!


But as another user said, we both have valid points - from miners side and from investor side, and we all need to take a step back, look at this in detail and find a middle ground that is right as im sure both sides of the arguments are overlooking something. Only time spent in thinking logically from both sides(i know its fucking hard) will help create a common ground where we can figure out the RIGHT solution regardless of who's right.

[aiesecliyang]

Rewarding miners now to bring MORE people into this coin is one way we can grow our user base as well as keeping the coin afloat.

No. If the coin isn't profitable now to mine, you really think up the reward will make this coin more profitable ? You'll change the hardcore spec each time the hashrate look not good enough ?

I say it's manipulation.
Can't believe what I read. I'm leaving definitively this crap. Dev, you're doing a heavy mistake. I hope other devs will learn from your fall.
You're just saying f*** to all peoples putting big money in your coin, for some idiot miners that don't understand they wont make a bigger profit because you increase the block reward.

edit: you really should replace your thread title: ** NO PREMINE BUT COIN MANIPULATION, YOU BUY IT ? WE FUCK YOU **

There are always someone believe in something but others not, if you dont like it,just empty your wallet,others will take it.Go ahead genius.

[coinrudar]

Rewarding miners now to bring MORE people into this coin is one way we can grow our user base as well as keeping the coin afloat.

No. If the coin isn't profitable now to mine, you really think up the reward will make this coin more profitable ? You'll change the hardcore spec each time the hashrate look not good enough ?

I say it's manipulation.
Can't believe what I read. I'm leaving definitively this crap. Dev, you're doing a heavy mistake. I hope other devs will learn from your fall.
You're just saying f*** to all peoples putting big money in your coin, for some idiot miners that don't understand they wont make a bigger profit because you increase the block reward.

edit: you really should replace your thread title: ** NO PREMINE BUT COIN MANIPULATION, YOU BUY IT ? WE FUCK YOU **

There are always someone believe in something but others not, if you dont like it,just empty your wallet,others will take it.Go ahead genius.

harsh words for something that was only a proposition or question from dev to the community. Decision is not made yet. Good thing is in all this discussion we see at least the community is alive

[Hilux74]

Rewarding miners now to bring MORE people into this coin is one way we can grow our user base as well as keeping the coin afloat.

No. If the coin isn't profitable now to mine, you really think up the reward will make this coin more profitable ? You'll change the hardcore spec each time the hashrate look not good enough ?

I say it's manipulation.
Can't believe what I read. I'm leaving definitively this crap. Dev, you're doing a heavy mistake. I hope other devs will learn from your fall.
You're just saying f*** to all peoples putting big money in your coin, for some idiot miners that don't understand they wont make a bigger profit because you increase the block reward.

edit: you really should replace your thread title: ** NO PREMINE BUT COIN MANIPULATION, YOU BUY IT ? WE FUCK YOU **

I think a language translation issue is making you interpret the ramifications of an adjusted block reward in an exaggerated fashion.  Since you have been around from the start you should already realize that a block reward tweak has already been done, this would be the second...how come you didn't have problems the first time around?  

Other highly regarded coins have also changed their block reward amounts/schedule such as Digitalcoin to adapt to changing circumstances.  To

You also realize that coin price on CoinedUp was highest when block rewards were 1000+.  Price is not correlated to block reward...everyone thinks it is but look at coin after coin where people think value will go up when reward halves...it almost never does.  Sags in prices lately are pretty much due to whining miners complaining and spreading FUD about a collapse of the coin from low block rewards.  Shortening the mining duration to retain interest from the mining class with a mildly increased block reward is an insignificant change and one that would have no logical effect to decrease price in the short or long term.  If it gets more buzz around PRT then it could help increase the price as demand still strips supply.

[ssshhh]

Alternative scenarios with no change in maximum coins i.e.1,000,000,000

1) increase block reward == more miners == higher difficulty == less coins mined by miner
2) leave block reward == less miners == lower difficulty == more coins mined by miner
3) increase blocktime to 60/120secs == coins released slower (higher difficulty) same as option 1.
4) price per coin increase == everyone happy

[aiesecliyang]

  MoonMoon,you have a lot of chinese fans.In the chat groups,many guys ask about you,but you know, most of the questions are when the wallet release.I am a programmer,so I know it is not easy to make a good software.So we will try to make our members calm down.Just make the best wallet.
  Looking forward to the fly of PRT,it is a hard time,but very cool,maybe we are idiots but who not?
  Moonmoon Fighting ,we have creativity, no pre-mine, no scam,big fans group.It just take some time to launch the spaceship.
Regards PRT China Team.

[coinrudar]

Alternative scenarios with no change in maximum coins i.e.1,000,000,000

1) increase block reward == more miners == higher difficulty == less coins mined by miner
2) leave block reward == less miners == lower difficulty == more coins mined by miner
3) increase blocktime to 60/120secs == coins released slower
4) price per coin increase == everyone happy

I vote for number 4.
Dev, change the algo to PRT=BTC, I'm sure you can

[Jean Bax]

Rewarding miners now to bring MORE people into this coin is one way we can grow our user base as well as keeping the coin afloat.

No. If the coin isn't profitable now to mine, you really think up the reward will make this coin more profitable ? You'll change the hardcore spec each time the hashrate look not good enough ?

I say it's manipulation.
Can't believe what I read. I'm leaving definitively this crap. Dev, you're doing a heavy mistake. I hope other devs will learn from your fall.
You're just saying f*** to all peoples putting big money in your coin, for some idiot miners that don't understand they wont make a bigger profit because you increase the block reward.

edit: you really should replace your thread title: ** NO PREMINE BUT COIN MANIPULATION, YOU BUY IT ? WE FUCK YOU **

There are always someone believe in something but others not, if you dont like it,just empty your wallet,others will take it.Go ahead genius.

harsh words for something that was only a proposition or question from dev to the community. Decision is not made yet

Yup I'm pretty harsh, sorry for this.
This decision is just terrible, this idea itself is an insult to people put lots of money into the coin.

I'm gonna spread the new to my coop right now as the idea is confirmed, I'll try to save a little of there money for those don't want to bet or risk.

I'm afraid to see the dev team is even minding about this, it's like childrens playing with people money (aka politics with peoples). "oh a red buttom, lets push to see !".

if you dont like it,just empty your wallet,others will take it.Go ahead genius.

Already done. I won't stop here. Business not happen alone.
Ofc you don't care, me to at least. Your choice f*** peoples who spend lot in the coin.

I defend this coin hard cause I like it, but it's not the point
You are playing with thousand of my dollars and lots of my BTC, and not only with mines.
I put shitload of money in this coin, glad I lost nothing except time. Understand I'm angry. I spent money and time to bring price up for damn miners who don't understand anything to maths.

[ssshhh]

Rewarding miners now to bring MORE people into this coin is one way we can grow our user base as well as keeping the coin afloat.

No. If the coin isn't profitable now to mine, you really think up the reward will make this coin more profitable ? You'll change the hardcore spec each time the hashrate look not good enough ?

I say it's manipulation.
Can't believe what I read. I'm leaving definitively this crap. Dev, you're doing a heavy mistake. I hope other devs will learn from your fall.
You're just saying f*** to all peoples putting big money in your coin, for some idiot miners that don't understand they wont make a bigger profit because you increase the block reward.

edit: you really should replace your thread title: ** NO PREMINE BUT COIN MANIPULATION, YOU BUY IT ? WE FUCK YOU **

There are always someone believe in something but others not, if you dont like it,just empty your wallet,others will take it.Go ahead genius.

harsh words for something that was only a proposition or question from dev to the community. Decision is not made yet

Yup I'm pretty harsh, sorry for this.
This decision is just terrible, this idea itself is an insult to people put lots of money into the coin.

I'm gonna spread the new to my coop right now as the idea is confirmed, I'll try to save a little of there money for those don't want to bet or risk.

I'm afraid to see the dev team is even minding about this, it's like childrens playing with people money (aka politics with peoples). "oh a red buttom, lets push to see !".

if you dont like it,just empty your wallet,others will take it.Go ahead genius.

Already done. I won't stop here. Business not happen alone.
Ofc you don't care, me to at least. Your choice f*** peoples who spend lot in the coin.

I defend this coin hard cause I like it, but it's not the point
You are playing with thousand of my dollars and lots of my BTC, and not only with mines.
I put shitload of money in this coin, glad I lost nothing except time. Understand I'm angry. I spent money and time to bring price up for damn miners who don't understand anything to maths.

NOTHING has been confirmed until the dev (moonmoon) states it!