[ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread

[palawan]

deleted...

I do not feel bad for you, since you appear to be fine with the situation, however others are not.  I feel content that you are content with your situation, though dismayed that you do not see the bigger picture.

I have however reduced confidence in this project succeeding when I see that a user is driven away because of practices that appear to create information asymmetries which favor people that have closer ties within a network (he called them "insiders" - don't confuse that with the SEC term)....

I respectfully disagree with you but I do hope you continue to be a supporter/investor of XCP...  Price (of XCP) is not the only reason for this project to succeed (or fail).  Execution is more important.  So many good things going for XCP...

Booms and busts happen in all markets and times.  Tulip mania.  dotcom stocks.  Real estate bubble.  There are big risks and big rewards in wild ups and downs.  If I want a stable (in price investment); I'd probably invest in a good company that pays a dividend such as MO (Altria group).

May I suggest a book to you (if you haven't already read it)?  Reminiscences of a Stock Operator (by Jesse Livermore).

It's a good read and discusses some of the things you mentioned (i.e. accumulation and distribution phase).  I'm a fundamentals type of investor, but some people like to study the charts to see when big price movements are going to happen.  Dennis Richard built a fortune utilizing Technical Analysis (charts)

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[prophetx]

Hi all, here's the latest Counterparty Development Update: http://counterparty.io/news/counterparty-development-update-4/

Great update. The free (no XCP fee, just Bitcoin Fee) Numeric-Named Assets are a powerful addition to the protocol. Huge swathes of Counterparty Protocol functionality can be accessed by just using BTC now. Frictionless on-boarding for the win! Entirely new applications will spring up around this capability.

Multisig support is just around the corner! Being able to secure one's assets in this manner will really add to the confidence in the Counterparty Protocol. And again, new applications will make use of multisig in various ways - as has been seen in the Bitcoin ecosystem. A solution for the following will be the cherry on top - https://github.com/CounterpartyXCP/counterpartyd/issues/413.

Keep up the relentless work! =D

Hopefully we will see support for double byte characters at some point in the future.

Asset IDs will never use large character sets, because of the possibilities of ambiguity and phishing (just as Bitcoin addresses use Base-58).That said, asset descriptions already have full support for UTF-8, which is where the real "asset names" should go.

regarding the bitcoin only fee, wouldn't it make sense to depreciate the fee on the alphabetic asset names as well? or what is the rationale for having the latter if the former implies that spam control is handled by a bitcoin cost?

The issue is squatting, not SPAM, and only alphabetic names would ever be squatted on.

i think you will find that the numeric palindromes and primes won't last long

or is the protocol assigning the number in sequential order? I tried the beta testnet wallet but it is telling me i need 0.5 xcp to create an asset

[prophetx]

deleted...


I have however reduced confidence in this project succeeding when I see that a user is driven away because of practices that appear to create information asymmetries which favor people that have closer ties within a network (he called them "insiders" - don't confuse that with the SEC term)....

I respectfully disagree with you but I do hope you continue to be a supporter/investor of XCP...  Price (of XCP) is not the only reason for this project to succeed (or fail).  Execution is more important.  So many good things going for XCP...

don't worry my reduced confidence from one factor (the possible loss of a user and his network) is mitigated by many other factors.  now if it starts to happen on a more frequent basis I would have reason for greater concern.

[BitThink]

Just some clarifications：
1 xcp is NOT a stock. It is NOT a share of counterparty. There's no IPO, and no money goes to the devs at all.
2 the price is completely created by the market (a very shallow one), and no one is responsible for it. It's just like BTC, and no dev or PR (do we have one for BTC?) should be responsible for the price.
3 therefore there's nothing wrong for someone to buy when he knows some good news or to sell when he knows something bad.
4 the success of counterparty has nothing to do with the price of xcp or how many people earn/lose money by speculating xcp. It soly depends on whether counterparty protocol is usable and useful.

[prophetx]

Just some clarifications：
1 xcp is NOT a stock. It is NOT a share of counterparty. There's no IPO, and no money goes to the devs at all.
2 the price is completely created by the market (a very shallow one), and no one is responsible for it. It's just like BTC, and no dev or PR (do we have one for BTC?) should be responsible for the price.
3 therefore there's nothing wrong for someone to buy when he knows some good news or to sell when he knows something bad.
4 the success of counterparty has nothing to do with the price of xcp or how many people earn/lose money by speculating xcp. It soly depends on whether counterparty protocol is usable and useful.

hahahahhaahhahahahahahahaha

oh wait

hahahahahahahahhahahhaha

you have NO IDEA what you are talking about

[BitThink]

Just some clarifications：
1 xcp is NOT a stock. It is NOT a share of counterparty. There's no IPO, and no money goes to the devs at all.
2 the price is completely created by the market (a very shallow one), and no one is responsible for it. It's just like BTC, and no dev or PR (do we have one for BTC?) should be responsible for the price.
3 therefore there's nothing wrong for someone to buy when he knows some good news or to sell when he knows something bad.
4 the success of counterparty has nothing to do with the price of xcp or how many people earn/lose money by speculating xcp. It soly depends on whether counterparty protocol is usable and useful.

hahahahhaahhahahahahahahaha

oh wait

hahahahahahahahhahahhaha

you have NO IDEA what you are talking about

Could you please change those haha into something more meaningful? If I am wrong, please point out my mistakes. This thread is supposed to give people useful information rather than meaningless words.

[SalimNagamato]

I think you need 0.5 XCP to create an asset
and probably some other operations which requires to burn XCP
so the price of XCP is suppose to be tied to the success of Counterparty
this is as far as i can understand about Counterparty, which is still not much

Just some clarifications：
1 xcp is NOT a stock. It is NOT a share of counterparty. There's no IPO, and no money goes to the devs at all.
2 the price is completely created by the market (a very shallow one), and no one is responsible for it. It's just like BTC, and no dev or PR (do we have one for BTC?) should be responsible for the price.
3 therefore there's nothing wrong for someone to buy when he knows some good news or to sell when he knows something bad.
4 the success of counterparty has nothing to do with the price of xcp or how many people earn/lose money by speculating xcp. It soly depends on whether counterparty protocol is usable and useful.

hahahahhaahhahahahahahahaha

oh wait

hahahahahahahahhahahhaha

you have NO IDEA what you are talking about

Could you please change those haha into something more meaningful? If I am wrong, please point out my mistakes. This thread is supposed to give people useful information rather than meaningless words.

[prophetx]

I think you need 0.5 XCP to create an asset
and probably some other operations which requires to burn XCP
so the price of XCP is suppose to be tied to the success of Counterparty
this is as far as i can understand about Counterparty, which is still not much

Just some clarifications：
1 xcp is NOT a stock. It is NOT a share of counterparty. There's no IPO, and no money goes to the devs at all.
2 the price is completely created by the market (a very shallow one), and no one is responsible for it. It's just like BTC, and no dev or PR (do we have one for BTC?) should be responsible for the price.
3 therefore there's nothing wrong for someone to buy when he knows some good news or to sell when he knows something bad.
4 the success of counterparty has nothing to do with the price of xcp or how many people earn/lose money by speculating xcp. It soly depends on whether counterparty protocol is usable and useful.

hahahahhaahhahahahahahahaha

oh wait

hahahahahahahahhahahhaha

you have NO IDEA what you are talking about

Could you please change those haha into something more meaningful? If I am wrong, please point out my mistakes. This thread is supposed to give people useful information rather than meaningless words.

finally someone one this thread that has a bit of sense and knows what he is talking about

you can also add:

ave to pay fees for send all payments (aka dividends) in XCP, the more successful use of this function will drive up the price.  Adam will probably need to put in some kind of stabilizing algo so that the price to pay all will not become prohibitive.

and theoretically, although it is not applied in practice, holders of XCP should be voting on changes to the protocol.

so let me ask you folks.... say a major firm needs to pay a dividend to 1 million holders of its stock. do you think that firm would be thrilled that on the week of the dividend payment XCP price goes up 3X?

again I go back to Hayek and why mass adoption will flow to currencies that exhibit more stable growth characteristics.  and the dev's do have some control over PR because they pay Social Radius for that.

maybe i am too smart for this thread...

[Equality 7-2521]

I think you need 0.5 XCP to create an asset
and probably some other operations which requires to burn XCP
so the price of XCP is suppose to be tied to the success of Counterparty
this is as far as i can understand about Counterparty, which is still not much

Here is a more thorough look at the utility of XCP:

Direct XCP Utility:

[1] Human Readable Asset Issuance Fee - (Squatting deterrent, Fee is burned)
[2] Dividend Payment Fee - (Spam deterrent, Fee is burned)
[3] Smart Contract Computation Fee - (DDOS deterrent, Fee is burned)

Indirect XCP Utility:

[1] All future proof-of-stake voting, e.g. for protocol changes, voting functionality, DACs, etc. will be determined by XCP holdings
[2] Trading with XCP on the distributed exchange is (and always will be) cheaper and faster than with BTC
[3] You can use only XCP for making bets, CFDs and asset callbacks. Forthcoming complex features and financial instruments will also likely be restricted to denomination in XCP

Economics/Philosophy:

[1] XCP supply is actively Deflationary
[2] Counterparty is an unencumbered open platform upon which many services have chosen and will choose to build. Each of these services has the option to utilize XCP - the native currency of Counterparty and its sole first-class citizen
[3] Ease of migration from the Bitcoin Blockchain (Anti-Fragility)

See here for related discussion - https://forums.counterparty.io/discussion/701/xcp-price-speculation.

[PhantomPhreak]

so let me ask you folks.... say a major firm needs to pay a dividend to 1 million holders of its stock. do you think that firm would be thrilled that on the week of the dividend payment XCP price goes up 3X?

If the dividends are paid in BTC, then there is no XCP dividend fee.

[prophetx]

I think you need 0.5 XCP to create an asset
and probably some other operations which requires to burn XCP
so the price of XCP is suppose to be tied to the success of Counterparty
this is as far as i can understand about Counterparty, which is still not much

Just some clarifications：
1 xcp is NOT a stock. It is NOT a share of counterparty. There's no IPO, and no money goes to the devs at all.
2 the price is completely created by the market (a very shallow one), and no one is responsible for it. It's just like BTC, and no dev or PR (do we have one for BTC?) should be responsible for the price.
3 therefore there's nothing wrong for someone to buy when he knows some good news or to sell when he knows something bad.
4 the success of counterparty has nothing to do with the price of xcp or how many people earn/lose money by speculating xcp. It soly depends on whether counterparty protocol is usable and useful.

hahahahhaahhahahahahahahaha

oh wait

hahahahahahahahhahahhaha

you have NO IDEA what you are talking about

Could you please change those haha into something more meaningful? If I am wrong, please point out my mistakes. This thread is supposed to give people useful information rather than meaningless words.

so let me ask you folks.... say a major firm needs to pay a dividend to 1 million holders of its stock. do you think that firm would be thrilled that on the week of the dividend payment XCP price goes up 3X?

If the dividends are paid in BTC, then there is no XCP dividend fee.

true although the BTC fee might be a little over the top if there are 1 million holders.  would be interesting for someone to do a comparison calculator based on the current BTC parameters.

If someone makes this calc by the end of December 2014 I will give you 5 XCP (should be done using javascript/html5 so it could be put on a web page) - PM me if interested and I will take the time to write out the spec.

However, I do not think that you will see dividends develop in this way, because even BTC is still too volatile and many of these companies will have their own private currency (hopefully built on top of XCP - that was one of the points around Mastercoin was to allow companies/apps to manage their own currency). Given that what I believe will happen is that companies or dapps will pay out dividends using their native currency as it has some intrinsic value for the user.

We already seem to have a early example of this - as far as I understand it. GEMS  (the app) will collect XGEMs from advertisers in order to be able to show adverts, and GEMS will distribute XGEMs to their users who have ads turned on.  The user then can sell XGEMs for BTC or XCP (or whatever) back to advertisers. Although I do not know if they plan to do this in their internal database, if they will use the pay all function, or if it will be something else that is based on the number of ads someone watches.

aside from fees the big value add seems to be that the protocol is aware of the existence of the dividend payment and tying it back to the asset.  is there a way in which BTC payments can me marked so that the protocol recognizes that the payment of btc is attached to an XCP asset? i think that sort of functionality will be important down the road as financial analysis and automated trading programs hook into bitcoin/xcp markets.

[BitThink]

I think you need 0.5 XCP to create an asset
and probably some other operations which requires to burn XCP
so the price of XCP is suppose to be tied to the success of Counterparty
this is as far as i can understand about Counterparty, which is still not much

Just some clarifications：
1 xcp is NOT a stock. It is NOT a share of counterparty. There's no IPO, and no money goes to the devs at all.
2 the price is completely created by the market (a very shallow one), and no one is responsible for it. It's just like BTC, and no dev or PR (do we have one for BTC?) should be responsible for the price.
3 therefore there's nothing wrong for someone to buy when he knows some good news or to sell when he knows something bad.
4 the success of counterparty has nothing to do with the price of xcp or how many people earn/lose money by speculating xcp. It soly depends on whether counterparty protocol is usable and useful.

hahahahhaahhahahahahahahaha

oh wait

hahahahahahahahhahahhaha

you have NO IDEA what you are talking about

Could you please change those haha into something more meaningful? If I am wrong, please point out my mistakes. This thread is supposed to give people useful information rather than meaningless words.

The 'price' I mentioned is the current price in a shallow market with very limited liquidity and when counterparty is still in the early stage and not many assets exist yet. As I said before, the current price is just noise and whether the speculators gain or loss has nothing to do with the final success of counterparty.

[prophetx]

The 'price' I mentioned is the current price in a shallow market with very limited liquidity and when counterparty is still in the early stage and not many assets exist yet. As I said before, the current price is just noise and whether the speculators gain or loss has nothing to do with the final success of counterparty.

you make the erroneous assumption that all market participants are merely speculators.  this is not the case.

[Anotheranonlol]

is the limiting factor similar to the alphabetic convention? between 4 and 13 or 14 numbers?  meaning it max's out at about 100 Trillion assets.

i can totally see this being used for the internet of things type applications.

regarding the bitcoin only fee, wouldn't it make sense to depreciate the fee on the alphabetic asset names as well? or what is the rationale for having the latter if the former implies that spam control is handled by a bitcoin cost?

I personally don't see a big amount of incentivation to squat on the former, even if a third party abstraction layer was to show up that will aid in cross-referencing those long numerical assets to translate as something a little more human-readable. It's not like there is anything there that would be coveted IMO. I do see cases where a user would spend what currently amounts to ~$2.50 to register a permanent blockchain-based asset. Hell, there's 100K .com registrations a day, priced at what's usually a minimum of 2-4x that (without offers) that you buy for 1 year period before expiry., I'd actually lean towards thinking $2.50 is a little on the low side for deterring spam or squatters if it wasn't for the fact this tech is in such a nascent stage, squatting on anything expecting a huge payoff one day is taking a gamble.

I think human-unreadable assets provide a low barrier to entry to users wishing to test out CounterParty & devs wishing to incorporate the technology into their creations who may not even wish to interface with XCP tokens. It's a great playground. Useful for smart contracts & the IOT,

An example use case where numerical assets would be preferred over non-numerical assets:  an OpenBazaar-like marketplace built on CounterParty, which leveraged an external DHT with CounterParty assets representing stock.
In the current incarnation it's infeasible to spend 0.5 XCP per alphabetical asset, for a multitude of reasons. yet it's not so far-fetched to imagine that you could manage a bunch of numerical assets with low overhead

Code:

141455190006 = Samsung Galaxy S 4 SGH-I337 - 16GB - Black / White / Red UNLOCKED (A)
291286899224 = ASUS 2 in 1 Ultrabook TAICHI31-NS51T 13.3" Intel Core i5 3337U (1.80GHz)

Just like you would get if you appended those numbers onto http://www.ebay.com/itm/

Of course OpenBazaar is already pretty damn good, not suggesting anyone immediately try and recreate it utilising CounterParty but it's just one example, such an application although not explicitly requiring XCP would still benefit XCP (and BTC holders) alike, adoption even without a portion of the userbase touching XCP is a net positive, the more utility/ubiquity the CounterParty-injected Bitcoin blockchain has in this ecosystem the better.

[palawan]

I finally got around to installing counterpartyd  on my bitcoind node last night and this morning, counterpartyd database is caught up to the latest block.

Question:  Does running counterpartyd benefit the Counterparty network in a similar way as a full node bitcoind (mine has 47 connections atm) benefit the Bitcoin network?

Thanks.

[weex]

I finally got around to installing counterpartyd  on my bitcoind node last night and this morning, counterpartyd database is caught up to the latest block.

Question:  Does running counterpartyd benefit the Counterparty network in a similar way as a full node bitcoind (mine has 47 connections atm) benefit the Bitcoin network?

Thanks.

The only benefit is to double check that your node is processing transactions like the others. Counterpartyd doesn't talk to other counterpartyd nodes so it's not that same level of benefit. It's good to have a node though. In the case a more visible node like Blockscan's goes rogue, you will be able to determine that for yourself and raise an alarm to the community.

[xnova]

Regarding the recent XCP price drop, we want to start by saying that the Counterparty team has been silent on this because we do not engage in price speculation, as a policy. As others have noted, XCP is still a rather young, small and illiquid market, that is as of yet not trading on what most would consider a “major” exchange. Therefore, larger purchases and sales of XCP can and oftentimes do push the price up or down by quite a large amount.
 
Other markets, such as the physical gold market, and BTC (e.g. via Second Market, Coinfloor, etc)  oftentimes have OTC markets (i.e. off-exchange markets) where interested buyers and significant holders may advertise their desire to buy or sell larger lots, in a manner that does not directly affect the market price. We are in the process of working with certain industry partners to see if such an offering could be reality for XCP. If this materializes, it should hopefully help to stabilize the price, while making it possible for larger positions in XCP to be entered into or exited in a more controlled fashion.

[daviducsb]

I like how user friendly Counterparty and its asset creation function are for non-techies like myself in terms of the accessibility of the platform.

Hope this continues to be a priority for the devs. Here are some thoughts (thinking out loud):

Would be interesting to see a co. issue reward points on Counterparty. Is there something in the works to make the functionality of rewards points user friendly?

I also think once the kinks of buying XCP directly from the counter wallet are ironed out it will be more user friendly, and also when one can buy XCP and BTC directly by sending fiat like $ to the platform. The money transmitter thing must be a big issue, but I would stipulate that the upside to having Counterparty more functional by avoiding third parties may make it worth the hassle. 

Right now, having to obtain BTC and then use BTER to get XCP, then transfer to Counterwallet is probably too difficult for the mass of people who would benefit from accessing Counterparty-related assets like reward points...

Also, I would love to organize a Counterparty/XCP get together in LA... Please advise if anyone might be interested.

[daviducsb]

I'm gonna be a hypocrite here and talk about the price despite myself. Anything with a market cap of $15 million or so will be inherently volatile. There is really nothing wrong with that until XCP and Counterparty grow much larger than it is now. If, hopefully XCP market capitalization (the value of all XCP) reaches say $150,000,000 or $50 an XCP (roughly a quarter the market cap of overstock) then maybe it might make sense to work on greater stability. I'm not a huge fan of volatility, but I think it probably draws in as many people as it turns off.

Let's revisit all this when XCP is at $50

Regarding the recent XCP price drop, we want to start by saying that the Counterparty team has been silent on this because we do not engage in price speculation, as a policy. As others have noted, XCP is still a rather young, small and illiquid market, that is as of yet not trading on what most would consider a “major” exchange. Therefore, larger purchases and sales of XCP can and oftentimes do push the price up or down by quite a large amount.
 
Other markets, such as the physical gold market, and BTC (e.g. via Second Market, Coinfloor, etc)  oftentimes have OTC markets (i.e. off-exchange markets) where interested buyers and significant holders may advertise their desire to buy or sell larger lots, in a manner that does not directly affect the market price. We are in the process of working with certain industry partners to see if such an offering could be reality for XCP. If this materializes, it should hopefully help to stabilize the price, while making it possible for larger positions in XCP to be entered into or exited in a more controlled fashion.

[pikuchato]

I'm gonna be a hypocrite here and talk about the price despite myself. Anything with a market cap of $15 million or so will be inherently volatile. There is really nothing wrong with that until XCP and Counterparty grow much larger than it is now. If, hopefully XCP market capitalization (the value of all XCP) reaches say $150,000,000 or $50 an XCP (roughly a quarter the market cap of overstock) then maybe it might make sense to work on greater stability. I'm not a huge fan of volatility, but I think it probably draws in as many people as it turns off.

Let's revisit all this when XCP is at $50

Regarding the recent XCP price drop, we want to start by saying that the Counterparty team has been silent on this because we do not engage in price speculation, as a policy. As others have noted, XCP is still a rather young, small and illiquid market, that is as of yet not trading on what most would consider a “major” exchange. Therefore, larger purchases and sales of XCP can and oftentimes do push the price up or down by quite a large amount.
 
Other markets, such as the physical gold market, and BTC (e.g. via Second Market, Coinfloor, etc)  oftentimes have OTC markets (i.e. off-exchange markets) where interested buyers and significant holders may advertise their desire to buy or sell larger lots, in a manner that does not directly affect the market price. We are in the process of working with certain industry partners to see if such an offering could be reality for XCP. If this materializes, it should hopefully help to stabilize the price, while making it possible for larger positions in XCP to be entered into or exited in a more controlled fashion.

Yeah, I am sure it will be very easy to bring new comers after that insider trading mess.

I love this project and I think its a shame you try to cover up what happened instead of just admit there was a problem and maybe try to prevent it in the future. the graphs are not lying.
I really like XCP (I had xcp for long long time) but because I am not a super-duper-mega-ultra trader - I can't afford my self keep playing in this game.
that's all, no hate no trolling. just my honest opinion.

edit: thank all for your comments on my original post, I read it all