[ANN][XCP] Counterparty - Pioneering Peer-to-Peer Finance - Official Thread

[PhantomPhreak]

As far as I know, simple send is already encoded as 40 bytes OP-RETURN, but will only be put into the counter wallet when majority of nodes and mining pools use 0.9.x

hmmphh... I am not too sure but I don't remember seeing an OP_return in the output script of the send transactions

The code is there in counterpartyd to automatically use OP_RETURN when the data are less than 40 bytes in length, but the feature is turned off because, last time I checked, transactions with OP_RETURN outputs take significantly longer to get included in a block. You can force the use of OP_RETURN, however, with the encoding CLI argument and API parameter.

[dexX7]

... last time I checked, transactions with OP_RETURN outputs take significantly longer to get included in a block.

I can confirm this: the confirmation delay is still an issue, even today.

[romerun]

... last time I checked, transactions with OP_RETURN outputs take significantly longer to get included in a block.

I can confirm this: the confirmation delay is still an issue, even today.

because most miners do not like to include op_return tx ?

[famous.names]

Can anyone explain me where i find the XCP wallet? I bought some XCP on BTER and want to put it cold storage.
I only see github links but i cant compile.

https://counterwallet.io/

ok so this is a web wllet.

is that decentralized peer 2 peer or is this hosted? sorry for my mistakes but im not so good in tech

It's not hosted; the private keys are generated client-side.

we need a simple to install desktop version.   c annot beleive it's centralised on a website!

Your password never goes to the site. it stays on your machine and the wallet is opened through some hash trickery or something. Nobody ever has access to your private key, except you.

Not impressed. You'r still putting all your trust in that website to submit transactions correctly and fairly for you.  What ever happened to a wallet that you can run on your own machine?

If you wish to have this level of control, install counterpartyd. You need bitcoind or bitcoin-qt running on the same machine and have to do a bit of configuration. http://counterpartyd-build.readthedocs.org/en/latest/BuildingFromSource.html

As I said from the begining, I want and easy to install wallet with decentralized exchange GUI, not a buch of clunky command-line interfaces.

[Matt Y]

Can anyone explain me where i find the XCP wallet? I bought some XCP on BTER and want to put it cold storage.
I only see github links but i cant compile.

https://counterwallet.io/

ok so this is a web wllet.

is that decentralized peer 2 peer or is this hosted? sorry for my mistakes but im not so good in tech

It's not hosted; the private keys are generated client-side.

we need a simple to install desktop version.   c annot beleive it's centralised on a website!

Your password never goes to the site. it stays on your machine and the wallet is opened through some hash trickery or something. Nobody ever has access to your private key, except you.

Not impressed. You'r still putting all your trust in that website to submit transactions correctly and fairly for you.  What ever happened to a wallet that you can run on your own machine?

If you wish to have this level of control, install counterpartyd. You need bitcoind or bitcoin-qt running on the same machine and have to do a bit of configuration. http://counterpartyd-build.readthedocs.org/en/latest/BuildingFromSource.html

As I said from the begining, I want and easy to install wallet with decentralized exchange GUI, not a buch of clunky command-line interfaces.

That does not exist yet, please check back later. Sorry for the run around.

[BitThink]

Can anyone explain me where i find the XCP wallet? I bought some XCP on BTER and want to put it cold storage.
I only see github links but i cant compile.

https://counterwallet.io/

ok so this is a web wllet.

is that decentralized peer 2 peer or is this hosted? sorry for my mistakes but im not so good in tech

It's not hosted; the private keys are generated client-side.

we need a simple to install desktop version.   c annot beleive it's centralised on a website!

Your password never goes to the site. it stays on your machine and the wallet is opened through some hash trickery or something. Nobody ever has access to your private key, except you.

Not impressed. You'r still putting all your trust in that website to submit transactions correctly and fairly for you.  What ever happened to a wallet that you can run on your own machine?

If you wish to have this level of control, install counterpartyd. You need bitcoind or bitcoin-qt running on the same machine and have to do a bit of configuration. http://counterpartyd-build.readthedocs.org/en/latest/BuildingFromSource.html

As I said from the begining, I want and easy to install wallet with decentralized exchange GUI, not a buch of clunky command-line interfaces.

That does not exist yet, please check back later. Sorry for the run around.

It's better to wait until the proposal to reduce bitcoind initial download size mentioned by Gavin recently has been implemented. Otherwise, downloading more than 20G bytes itself is formidable already.

[BitThink]

It's better to until the proposal to reduce bitcoind initial download size mentioned by Gavin recently has been implemented. Otherwise, downloading more than 20G bytes itself is formidable already.

If you're talking about the invertible bloom filter stuff, that's not about reducing the size of the block chain but is about reducing the amount of data that needs to propagate when a new block is found. Bloom filters are as far as I know part of the push for an SPV client. This stuff is better discussed outside of this thread though as it is not specific to Counterparty.

No, I am talking about this https://bitcoinfoundation.org/2014/10/a-scalability-roadmap/

[Luke-Jr]

It's better to until the proposal to reduce bitcoind initial download size mentioned by Gavin recently has been implemented. Otherwise, downloading more than 20G bytes itself is formidable already.

If you're talking about the invertible bloom filter stuff, that's not about reducing the size of the block chain but is about reducing the amount of data that needs to propagate when a new block is found. Bloom filters are as far as I know part of the push for an SPV client. This stuff is better discussed outside of this thread though as it is not specific to Counterparty.

No, I am talking about this https://bitcoinfoundation.org/2014/10/a-scalability-roadmap/

The download is still 20 GB even if you discard most of it later.

[BitThink]

It's better to until the proposal to reduce bitcoind initial download size mentioned by Gavin recently has been implemented. Otherwise, downloading more than 20G bytes itself is formidable already.

If you're talking about the invertible bloom filter stuff, that's not about reducing the size of the block chain but is about reducing the amount of data that needs to propagate when a new block is found. Bloom filters are as far as I know part of the push for an SPV client. This stuff is better discussed outside of this thread though as it is not specific to Counterparty.

No, I am talking about this https://bitcoinfoundation.org/2014/10/a-scalability-roadmap/

The download is still 20 GB even if you discard most of it later.

I think a node can start working after downloading the header (around 25M) and the recent hundreds of blocks (around 200M). Then only UTXO data is needed to verify the transactions and they can be obtained from peers on demand. The UTXO data can be verified by a hash embedded in all new blocks. The clients certainly still need to store some data to secure the whole blockchain, but this can be done progressively and in the background.

From Gavin's blog:

After that, initial block chain download can be further optimized to ask peers directly for the UTXO set instead of reconstructing it by asking them for the entire history of the blockchain. The risk would be that they lie about what is spent and unspent, to try to get you to accept invalid transactions or create invalid blocks if you are mining. The best solution for that problem is to embed a “UTXO commitment” (a hash of all of the data in the UTXO set) into blocks, and adding a new consensus rule that any such commitment must be valid for the block to be valid.

The Future Looks Bright
So some future Bitcoin enthusiast or professional sysadmin would download and run software that did the following to get up and running quickly:

  Connect to peers, just as is done today.

  Download headers for the best chain from its peers (tens of megabytes; will take at most a few minutes)
  
  Download enough full blocks to handle and reasonable blockchain re-organization (a few hundred should be plenty, which will take perhaps an hour).

  Ask a peer for the UTXO set, and check it against the commitment made in the blockchain.
From this point on, it is a fully-validating node. If disk space is scarce, it can delete old blocks from disk.

Anyway, let's hope the 0.9.x be applied widely as soon as possible, so that OP_RETURN can be used to reduce UTXO set.

BTW, I've heard there's a way to spend those multi-sig transactions used in encoding XCP transactions. Is that true or not?

[PhantomPhreak]

It's better to until the proposal to reduce bitcoind initial download size mentioned by Gavin recently has been implemented. Otherwise, downloading more than 20G bytes itself is formidable already.

If you're talking about the invertible bloom filter stuff, that's not about reducing the size of the block chain but is about reducing the amount of data that needs to propagate when a new block is found. Bloom filters are as far as I know part of the push for an SPV client. This stuff is better discussed outside of this thread though as it is not specific to Counterparty.

No, I am talking about this https://bitcoinfoundation.org/2014/10/a-scalability-roadmap/

The download is still 20 GB even if you discard most of it later.

I think a node can start working after downloading the header (around 25M) and the recent hundreds of blocks (around 200M). Then only UTXO data is needed to verify the transactions and they can be obtained from peers on demand. The UTXO data can be verified by a hash embedded in all new blocks. The clients certainly still need to store some data to secure the whole blockchain, but this can be done progressively and in the background.

From Gavin's blog:

After that, initial block chain download can be further optimized to ask peers directly for the UTXO set instead of reconstructing it by asking them for the entire history of the blockchain. The risk would be that they lie about what is spent and unspent, to try to get you to accept invalid transactions or create invalid blocks if you are mining. The best solution for that problem is to embed a “UTXO commitment” (a hash of all of the data in the UTXO set) into blocks, and adding a new consensus rule that any such commitment must be valid for the block to be valid.

The Future Looks Bright
So some future Bitcoin enthusiast or professional sysadmin would download and run software that did the following to get up and running quickly:

  Connect to peers, just as is done today.

  Download headers for the best chain from its peers (tens of megabytes; will take at most a few minutes)
  
  Download enough full blocks to handle and reasonable blockchain re-organization (a few hundred should be plenty, which will take perhaps an hour).

  Ask a peer for the UTXO set, and check it against the commitment made in the blockchain.
From this point on, it is a fully-validating node. If disk space is scarce, it can delete old blocks from disk.

Anyway, let's hope the 0.9.x be applied widely as soon as possible, so that OP_RETURN can be used to reduce UTXO set.

BTW, I've heard there's a way to spend those multi-sig transactions used in encoding XCP transactions. Is that true or not?

Yep: http://redeem.bitwatch.co/

[dexX7]

Yep: http://redeem.bitwatch.co/

Counterwallet targeted instructions can be found here: http://imgur.com/a/YWKaV -- in short: submit your wallet's address, copy the unsigned hex of the raw transaction and use "address actions" - "sign transaction" within CW.


It looks like not only Luke is pushing forward to 80 byte OP_RETURN, but jgarzik as well: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5075

Makes me sort of wonder about the underlying motivation and what has changed since the "general consensus" resulted in the reduced length of 40 byte. And this makes me especially wonder, if there are business interests involved that some of the participants of the discussion might be associated with.

[IamNotSure]

Yep: http://redeem.bitwatch.co/

Counterwallet targeted instructions can be found here: http://imgur.com/a/YWKaV -- in short: submit your wallet's address, copy the unsigned hex of the raw transaction and use "address actions" - "sign transaction" within CW.


It looks like not only Luke is pushing forward to 80 byte OP_RETURN, but jgarzik as well: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5075

Makes me sort of wonder about the underlying motivation and what has changed since the "general consensus" resulted in the reduced length of 40 byte. And this makes me especially wonder, if there are business interests involved that some of the participants of the discussion might be associated with.

thanks DexX7.. I was wondering the same !

[Matt Y]

Adam's explanation of folding coin at 17:50 is worth listening to if you want to know more about that project: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-151-news-flurry

[weex]

Yep: http://redeem.bitwatch.co/

Counterwallet targeted instructions can be found here: http://imgur.com/a/YWKaV -- in short: submit your wallet's address, copy the unsigned hex of the raw transaction and use "address actions" - "sign transaction" within CW.


It looks like not only Luke is pushing forward to 80 byte OP_RETURN, but jgarzik as well: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5075

Makes me sort of wonder about the underlying motivation and what has changed since the "general consensus" resulted in the reduced length of 40 byte. And this makes me especially wonder, if there are business interests involved that some of the participants of the discussion might be associated with.

thanks DexX7.. I was wondering the same !

It just makes sense. People can and will put arbitrary data into the block chain by paying fees. The only sensible stance is to give people who wish to do so a way that causes the least harm to network resources (namely the utxo). I think even a bigger OP_RETURN data size has been suggested to be needed to make the economics clearly favor OP_RETURN for those cases.

I would be interested to hear from mining pools just how valuable  utxo real estate is. I mean, could they deal with 10 or 100x as many outputs in there before slowing things down or needing more ram?

[Matt Y]

It looks like not only Luke is pushing forward to 80 byte OP_RETURN, but jgarzik as well: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5075

Makes me sort of wonder about the underlying motivation and what has changed since the "general consensus" resulted in the reduced length of 40 byte. And this makes me especially wonder, if there are business interests involved that some of the participants of the discussion might be associated with.

Agreed. Will be interesting to see what it is.

[Fernandez]

Can anyone explain me where i find the XCP wallet? I bought some XCP on BTER and want to put it cold storage.
I only see github links but i cant compile.

https://counterwallet.io/

ok so this is a web wllet.

is that decentralized peer 2 peer or is this hosted? sorry for my mistakes but im not so good in tech

It's not hosted; the private keys are generated client-side.

we need a simple to install desktop version.   c annot beleive it's centralised on a website!

Your password never goes to the site. it stays on your machine and the wallet is opened through some hash trickery or something. Nobody ever has access to your private key, except you.

Not impressed. You'r still putting all your trust in that website to submit transactions correctly and fairly for you.  What ever happened to a wallet that you can run on your own machine?

It is a wallet run on your own machine. Just the programming language is JavaScript and the browser is the interpreter. A program written in Other language will not be any safer. That said, an independent wallet is still a good plus. Maybe based on WebKit so less extra work to do.

I would prefer a proper wallet on my PC. I ran counterpartyd, but have switched to counterwallet as its so much easier.

A simple GUI for counterpartyd will do.

[BitThink]

Yep: http://redeem.bitwatch.co/

Counterwallet targeted instructions can be found here: http://imgur.com/a/YWKaV -- in short: submit your wallet's address, copy the unsigned hex of the raw transaction and use "address actions" - "sign transaction" within CW.


It looks like not only Luke is pushing forward to 80 byte OP_RETURN, but jgarzik as well: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5075

Makes me sort of wonder about the underlying motivation and what has changed since the "general consensus" resulted in the reduced length of 40 byte. And this makes me especially wonder, if there are business interests involved that some of the participants of the discussion might be associated with.

Thanks l lot, DexX7 and PhantomPhreak. If this can be put into counterwallet, then we can both help the users and the blockchain.

[BitThink]

Can anyone explain me where i find the XCP wallet? I bought some XCP on BTER and want to put it cold storage.
I only see github links but i cant compile.

https://counterwallet.io/

ok so this is a web wllet.

is that decentralized peer 2 peer or is this hosted? sorry for my mistakes but im not so good in tech

It's not hosted; the private keys are generated client-side.

we need a simple to install desktop version.   c annot beleive it's centralised on a website!

Your password never goes to the site. it stays on your machine and the wallet is opened through some hash trickery or something. Nobody ever has access to your private key, except you.

Not impressed. You'r still putting all your trust in that website to submit transactions correctly and fairly for you.  What ever happened to a wallet that you can run on your own machine?

It is a wallet run on your own machine. Just the programming language is JavaScript and the browser is the interpreter. A program written in Other language will not be any safer. That said, an independent wallet is still a good plus. Maybe based on WebKit so less extra work to do.

I would prefer a proper wallet on my PC. I ran counterpartyd, but have switched to counterwallet as its so much easier.

A simple GUI for counterpartyd will do.

Yes, that definitely helps. However, people still need to download bitcoind and the whole blockchain, re-index. That's almost 2 complete days.

[Equality 7-2521]

Can anyone explain me where i find the XCP wallet? I bought some XCP on BTER and want to put it cold storage.
I only see github links but i cant compile.

https://counterwallet.io/

ok so this is a web wllet.

is that decentralized peer 2 peer or is this hosted? sorry for my mistakes but im not so good in tech

It's not hosted; the private keys are generated client-side.

we need a simple to install desktop version.   c annot beleive it's centralised on a website!

Your password never goes to the site. it stays on your machine and the wallet is opened through some hash trickery or something. Nobody ever has access to your private key, except you.

Not impressed. You'r still putting all your trust in that website to submit transactions correctly and fairly for you.  What ever happened to a wallet that you can run on your own machine?

It is a wallet run on your own machine. Just the programming language is JavaScript and the browser is the interpreter. A program written in Other language will not be any safer. That said, an independent wallet is still a good plus. Maybe based on WebKit so less extra work to do.

I would prefer a proper wallet on my PC. I ran counterpartyd, but have switched to counterwallet as its so much easier.

A simple GUI for counterpartyd will do.

Yes, that definitely helps. However, people still need to download bitcoind and the whole blockchain, re-index. That's almost 2 complete days.

The process of downloading this Blockchain torrent - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=145386.0 - could be included in the Counterparty package.

[Matt Y]

Counterparty jobs: http://counterparty.io/jobs/