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Author Topic: Silk Road: anonymous marketplace. Feedback requested :)  (Read 144069 times)
drugsmang
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June 06, 2011, 06:41:42 PM
 #341

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So what is your role with Bitcoin?  Do you speak for the organization?

troll much?
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The block chain is the main innovation of Bitcoin. It is the first distributed timestamping system.
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MoonShadow
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June 06, 2011, 06:41:49 PM
 #342



Yes!  That's exactly why I am seeking clarification from Silk Road, Bitcoin and anyone involved in the illegal drug market today.  No one appears to be stepping forward, at least not yet, to give us an idea of where SR, etc. stand on the moral and ethical issues I and others have raised.  

We are not Silk Road.  Try talking to them.  Bitcoin is not related to Silk Road, beyond being an enabling technology.  None of us take any responsibility for what they are doing, nor are we responsible for trying to defend their position on anything.

Dear creighto,
Thank you for that clarification.  Although I do not understand what you mean by "enabling technology?"

So what is your role with Bitcoin?  Do you speak for the organization?

No, I speak only for myself.  I represent the owners of this forum in a limited fashion, but that is as far as it goes.  There is no bitcoin "organization".  If there were, this project would fail.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
BCEmporium
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June 06, 2011, 07:17:50 PM
 #343

Try to directly relate BTC with SR is the same as linking the Federal Reserve with the drug cartels, taken they use mostly USD...

Still, I don't see the good of SR so far, it came way too soon and may end up linking BTC as "drugs currency"... but let's just hope that will not happen.
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June 06, 2011, 07:21:56 PM
 #344

While I don't suggest SR or Bitcoin would actively participate in acts of overt violence.  I still think we need to ask if selling tar heroin to a young teen isn't a from of violence in and of itself?
Assuming that it is, what feasible recommendations do you have for Silk Road on the matter?

</feeble attempt to get back on topic>

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greenfloyd
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June 06, 2011, 07:38:15 PM
 #345

While I don't suggest SR or Bitcoin would actively participate in acts of overt violence.  I still think we need to ask if selling tar heroin to a young teen isn't a from of violence in and of itself?

It's none of your business or mine, only that of the child and guardian.

In exactly the same way, I consider religious indoctrination to be a form of child abuse, but its none of my business if others indoctrinate their children into their choice of religion.

Ah, though, BitterTea, this system does not require a "guardian," or more importantly, parental authority.  I respectfully disagree that the issue of drug trafficking to (or increasingly by) minors is of no concern to the larger community.  In fact, it's a major concern in many communities.  This building SR controversy is sure to only heighten it.  Rather that be by design or not, remains to be seen.  Perhaps SR will become a poster-boy for why we must regulate drugs and take them out of the hands of cartels, dealers and clandestine Internet markets.

greenfloyd, aka Floyd Ferris Landrath, Portland, Oregon
drugsmang
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June 06, 2011, 07:48:56 PM
 #346

The SR controversy is merely senators trying to capitalize from tabloid journalism. it will die out in a week or so when @LulzSec is all over the news for h4xoring another FBI affiliate.

Online drug dealing has been going on since 1993 as far as i can remember. Patrick Kroupa used to sell acid and mesc on MindVox
Goldenmaw
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June 06, 2011, 07:56:01 PM
 #347

I am a single, small and un-influential voice in this community, and I want you gone, Silkroad.  This has nothing to do with my personal views on unrestricted trade among consenting adults, and everything to do with the fact that the united states government in its totality has every motive to discredit, damage and disable Bitcoin by any means necessary, and that if Senator Charles Schumer's current actions have any weight to them, the machinery for this has already been set into motion, using you.

You, Silkroad, are a tremendous liability to Bitcoin, and while the users here who are interested in Bitcoin purely for black transactions will disagree vocally with my opinion, your assocation with us is extremely damaging.  You can and will be used against us, and I for one want you gone.  I do not wish to purchase illegal substances with Bitcoins.  I want Bitcoins to be the image of moral progress to the people in my country, and as public opinions stand, this cannot come to be for as long as puppets like Schumer can gleefully call Bitcoins "the black market currency". I want you to drop Bitcoins as an accepted currency and terminate all association with Bitcoin.

You are, collectively, a huge threat to the Bitcoin movement, for purely political reasons, and I have no doubt in my mind that the cause Bitcoins represents is socially and economically many orders of magnitude more important for mankind's well being than you, Silkroad. I only wish more Bitcoin users here would recognize the danger of your association with us.
MoonShadow
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June 06, 2011, 08:00:43 PM
 #348

Personally, I want Charles Schumer to say the name "Bitcoin" and "currency" together in front of the media as often as possible.  I don't know if Bitcoin is ready for the US government or not, but I'm ready to find out.  In the meantime, any of the talking heads blathering on about Bitcoin adds credibility. 

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
BitterTea
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June 06, 2011, 08:01:28 PM
 #349

I am a single, small and un-influential voice in this community, and I want you gone, Silkroad.  This has nothing to do with my personal views on unrestricted trade among consenting adults, and everything to do with the fact that the united states government in its totality has every motive to discredit, damage and disable Bitcoin by any means necessary, and that if Senator Charles Schumer's current actions have any weight to them, the machinery for this has already been set into motion, using you.

You, Silkroad, are a tremendous liability to Bitcoin, and while the users here who are interested in Bitcoin purely for black transactions will disagree vocally with my opinion, your assocation with us is extremely damaging.  You can and will be used against us, and I for one want you gone.  I do not wish to purchase illegal substances with Bitcoins.  I want Bitcoins to be the image of moral progress to the people in my country, and as public opinions stand, this cannot come to be for as long as puppets like Schumer can gleefully call Bitcoins "the black market currency". I want you to drop Bitcoins as an accepted currency and terminate all association with Bitcoin.

You are, collectively, a huge threat to the Bitcoin movement, for purely political reasons, and I have no doubt in my mind that the cause Bitcoins represents is socially and economically many orders of magnitude more important for mankind's well being than you, Silkroad. I only wish more Bitcoin users here would recognize the danger of your association with us.

You seem confused. Charles Schumer (and those like him) are the problem, not the Silk Road.

Why don't you "want you gone, Charles Schumer"?
Goldenmaw
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June 06, 2011, 08:05:35 PM
 #350

Because Charles Schumer and those like him aren't going anywhere without an armed revolution.  That's why.  Silkroad, and the entire image of Bitcoins as "the black market currency", has the power to smash the public opinion we so desperately need to build in order to ensure active bitcoin trading by the general public.  For Bitcoin to bloom, we cannot give federal and local enforcement authorities excuses to kick down our doors and seize our hard drives. 

Silkroad is a tremendously good excuse.
anisoptera
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June 06, 2011, 08:07:09 PM
 #351

I have no doubt in my mind that the cause Bitcoins represents is socially and economically many orders of magnitude more important for mankind's well being than you, Silkroad.

The cause Bitcoin represents is literally the freedom for sites such as Silk Road to exist. If Silk Road goes away, the ideology of Bitcoin has failed.

I don't know what you think Bitcoin is supposed to be doing if "Freedom to perform financial transactions regardless of the circumstances surrounding those transactions" isn't it.

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Goldenmaw
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June 06, 2011, 08:09:22 PM
 #352

Many individuals who are interested in Bitcoin as a means of challenging the financial power structure that holds the american economy in a ruthless stranglehold would disagree with that statement, anisoptera.  Advancement to a more secure and less easily corrupted form of currency is far more important than weed.com.
anisoptera
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June 06, 2011, 08:13:34 PM
 #353

Many individuals who are interested in Bitcoin as a means of challenging the financial power structure that holds the american economy in a ruthless stranglehold would disagree with that statement, anisoptera.  Advancement to a more secure and less easily corrupted form of currency is far more important than weed.com.

If Bitcoins cannot be used for, as you put it, "weed.com", then it is not, in fact, a "less easily corrupted form of currency". It is the same bullshit with a different name.

"Corruption" includes outside entities being allowed to arbitrarily decide that certain types of transactions are not authorized. If we allow this to happen to Bitcoin, we have lost.

The only people who should be able to decide if a transaction is acceptable are those involved in that transaction. It isn't the financial network's job to enforce laws. The fact that the US is able to use banking policies to enforce their laws on the world economy is wrong, and Bitcoin is the solution, but only if we protect that power.

You have to protect all the speech, even the speech you don't agree with. Today it's Silk Road. Do you think that that's where it stops?

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greenfloyd
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June 06, 2011, 08:14:16 PM
 #354

While I don't suggest SR or Bitcoin would actively participate in acts of overt violence.  I still think we need to ask if selling tar heroin to a young teen isn't a from of violence in and of itself?
Assuming that it is, what feasible recommendations do you have for Silk Road on the matter?

</feeble attempt to get back on topic>

Because I'm not sure what's really going on here I don't think I'm in any position to judge what is or isn't "feasible."  If it's a hoax, it's beautiful.  On the other hand if it is not a hoax, then I believe it becomes part of the problem.  Certainly nothing like cartels and gangs, yet still operating as if it, Silk Road, were above the law.  My aim has always been to change the law and make things better for everybody, except of course those who get fat off the way the law is today.

greenfloyd, aka Floyd Ferris Landrath, Portland, Oregon
Goldenmaw
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June 06, 2011, 08:21:30 PM
 #355

Then we are doomed to lose.  They will ban the possession and usage of bitcoins, they will subpoena ISPs (successfully), they will devise methods of tracking who is likely to use them, and the same machinery that makes search and seizure of narcotics from individuals so profitable will, with a slight change of its gears, shift to grind miners and traders in their teeth instead of growers.

They will find a way, if we do not have the general public backing us.  This isn't a truly anonymous currency.  We all know that.

When I speak of corruption, I am speaking of how the united states dollar has come to possess a certain sinister quality to it.  It is managed on the macro level by organizations who have every advantage to keep the people using it in debt.  We are a country composed of debt - in essence an economical feudal tyranny, with lords, knights, and peasants who are forced by necessity to serve.  Their whips and prods are debt and interest.  Their collars are credit.  Bitcoin could challenge this, but only with those serfs behind it.  They will not rally to your ideology because they believe drugs to be bad.

I understand your ideology.  Do you now understand mine?  We have different motivations in our support of Bitcoins.  Let's leave it at that, for now.
anisoptera
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June 06, 2011, 08:22:02 PM
 #356

operating as if it, Silk Road, were above the law.

What if what Silk Road does isn't illegal in its country? Just because something is illegal in the US doesn't make it illegal everywhere. Nothing ties Silk Road to any one country, and certainly not the US.

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Goldenmaw
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June 06, 2011, 08:24:38 PM
 #357

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What if what Silk Road does isn't illegal in its country? Just because something is illegal in the US doesn't make it illegal everywhere. Nothing ties Silk Road to any one country, and certainly not the US.
This is true, and valid, and as unfortunate for the health of Bitcoin in the US as it is fortunate for Silkroad's well being everywhere.
drugsmang
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June 06, 2011, 08:26:32 PM
 #358

Silk Road is not the end of Bitcoin. Bitcoin itself is evil enough in the eyes of the excited states, remember what happened to E-Gold? EBullion? All the arrested LR and Pecunix traders in the US? yeah
anisoptera
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June 06, 2011, 08:28:27 PM
 #359

Then we are doomed to lose.  They will ban the possession and usage of bitcoins, they will subpoena ISPs (successfully), they will devise methods of tracking who is likely to use them, and the same machinery that makes search and seizure of narcotics from individuals so profitable will, with a slight change of its gears, shift to grind miners and traders in their teeth instead of growers.
And then people will use Tor for bitcoin by default. Or bitcoin will change its protocol to evade this. Or Bitcoin will be made illegal, but someone will just start a new blockchain.

Quote
They will find a way, if we do not have the general public backing us.  This isn't a truly anonymous currency.  We all know that.
We don't need the general public backing us. We need enough people backing us to continue to use the currency. The number of people who understand that whenever the government speaks about drugs in any way that they are lying is pretty large. I would be willing to bet that for every person who believes the lies, there will be at least one other who has never heard of bitcoin and looks into it to fact-check the government lines.

Quote
When I speak of corruption, I am speaking of how the united states dollar has come to possess a certain sinister quality to it.  It is managed on the macro level by organizations who have every advantage to keep the people using it in debt.  We are a country composed of debt - in essence an economical feudal tyranny, with lords, knights, and peasants who are forced by necessity to serve.  Their whips and prods are debt and interest.  Their collars are credit.  Bitcoin could challenge this, but only with those serfs behind it.  They will not rally to your ideology because they believe drugs to be bad.

I understand your ideology.  Do you now understand mine?  We have different motivations in our support of Bitcoins.  Let's leave it at that, for now.

I think you grossly overestimate the number of people whose thoughts on drugs end at "Drugs r bad!". And it doesn't take a lot of work to point out that it's a freedom thing, not a drug thing.

Also, despite BitTorrent being used primarily for illegal purposes, there doesn't appear to be much traction for banning it.

Quote
What if what Silk Road does isn't illegal in its country? Just because something is illegal in the US doesn't make it illegal everywhere. Nothing ties Silk Road to any one country, and certainly not the US.
This is true, and valid, and as unfortunate for the health of Bitcoin in the US as it is fortunate for Silkroad's well being everywhere.

The US is not the world, and if the US bans Bitcoin but the rest of the world doesn't, it's not going to be a problem. For Bitcoin, that is. The US might find itself in a bad position.

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Goldenmaw
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June 06, 2011, 08:31:05 PM
 #360

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Silk Road is not the end of Bitcoin. Bitcoin itself is evil enough in the eyes of the excited states, remember what happened to E-Gold? EBullion? All the arrested LR and Pecunix traders in the US? yeah
They had an easy kill with e-gold.  Completely centralized.  The resources they'll need to take down bitcoin are something else altogether.  But what you say has truth to it - without Silkroad, they would find other excuses to demonize Bitcoin.  It might be an impossible task to keep our image clean in the public eye, but we have to try, don't we?

-------

And anisoptera?  Rather than continue to argue with you, I have a simple question for you.

If you had to choose one service to survive, dooming the other one to failure, would it be Bitcoin, or Silkroad?
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