Bitcoin Forum
December 10, 2016, 01:35:46 AM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 [30] 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Silk Road: anonymous marketplace. Feedback requested :)  (Read 143844 times)
mewantsbitcoins
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 07:48:35 PM
 #581

If it is not obvious and you are completely brain dead, this post is for you
DON'T BUY OR TAKE ACCOUNT FROM A STRANGER!!!
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
shroomer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 07:50:12 PM
 #582

Goldenmaw,

I live in an average European country. Anything except legal tender is illegal here for sellers to accept as a form of payment. There have been several attempts to create e-currencies, but all of them have been shut down by the authorities. Shops won't accept anything but legal tender because the laws forbid it. I don't know laws of other European countries, but I have never heard of a single European e-currency, so my guess is that the laws are the same in most, if not all of them.

In US, every attempt to create e-currency in the open ended by accusation of money laundering or something else, and the currency has been shut down, like e-gold. Even those who accept the alternatives to dollar risk made up criminal charges. And in US it's not even illegal to create alternative currencies (I believe). But the state won't accept the alternative, because it's a threat to its very existence. If shops start excepting Bitcoins, The Man will simply ban it and will be done with it. They can't stop Bitcoin technically, but they can do it legally, and they will if necessary.

Face it, Bitcoin has almost zero chance to become part of "white economy". Black market is its only chance. For Bitcoin to succeed, it has to be backed by a real economy, because right now it's mostly a speculative game, and once we run out of new buyers and Bitcoin flatlines, everybody will start cashing out the profits and Bitcoin will fall like a penny stock. As they say, what goes up by an escalator will come down by an elevator.

In developed countries black economy is about 20% of the whole market. It's much bigger in developing countries. World economy is about 60 trillion dollars (not counting the financial derivatives, which are much bigger), which makes black market at least 12 trillion. Now, mind you, most of it is not dealing with illegal stuff like drugs and guns and so on. It's merely tax evasion, e.g. selling things without accounting. I have been part of it since 2005, when I decided to stop paying unreasonable about 70% taxes, state spying on me, restricting my freedoms, increasing budget deficits and building socialism. I still pay 20% VAT (I spend most of the money I make) and health insurance, which I do consider to be a fair tax for what I get, but that's all. My only protection are still reasonable bank privacy laws, which prevent the tax man from mining banking data for people with income but no tax payments. Lots of people do that, under their real names, issuing fake or no invoices, and getting paid to their bank accounts.

As the states are tightening their surveillance and taxing the hell out of us, Bitcoin will become more attractive to people like me. If only 10% of black market moves to Bitcoin, we can have 1 trillion dollar economy, enough to make Bitcoin stable currency and a good store of value, too.

Now, the Silk Road.

Drug dealing can be very dirty business, witness the mexican drug cartel. Silk Road is different, many small individual sellers catering directly to their clients. It makes drug dealing into what it should be, a victimless consensual "crime". I have absolutely no problem with that, given, as I said, that Bitcoin's chances on official market are almost nil. I have even put on offer my small stash of psychedelic mushrooms and made two sales. If I manage to sell them all, I will turn that into regular business and start growing some pot, too.

What you are missing is that Bitcoin won't be attacked because of Silk Road. It will be attacked because of being viable and better alternative to fiat legal tender. Silk Road will serve only as an excuse for attacking Bitcoin. Shut down the Silk Road, and they will come with another excuse, like money laundering (which Bitcoin can do very well and easily).

Silk Road is currently probably the single largest Bitcoin market. It's little more black then the rest of Bitcoin's black market, but the difference is not really qualitative.

So, stop fighting it and embrace it instead. Besides, with unregulated currency, there's really nothing you can do about Silk Road except endlessly complain about it on the forum. It may make you feel better about yourself, but maybe there are bigger causes than that  Wink
Goldenmaw
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 07:56:56 PM
 #583

Shroomer,

Interesting and well articulated argument.  It could very well happen like that - it all depends on whether or not our government decides embracing Bitcoin will prove a technological and financial advantage over other countries.  If you search the forums, you'll notice that a lot the high profile Bitcoin developers are working with our government right now to determine if there is a potential solution.  Gavin was invited to a confidential technological summit with the CIA.  God knows how that went/is going.  I think the possibility of a white market solution is more likely than you think, but only with both parties working to find compromise.  If compromise is reached, Bitcoins will quickly proliferate as a form of accepted payment - if it isn't, it will spiral into black market territory exclusively, as you said.  I'm not embracing a damned thing until I know what sides the dice land.  And I will complain about the damage Silkroad does to Bitcoin's chance of widespread acceptance for as long as Bitcoin is the quasi-official Silkroad forum.

As for bigger causes...  What would those be, exactly?

Edit:  I should also like to point out that the ability of the united states government to track Bitcoin mining and transactions remains an unknown factor at this point.  In my country, we sure do love the sucker-punch.  If they've got a system for monitoring Bitcoin activity - and the cooperation of the dev team almost guarantees this will come about eventually, if it hasn't already - it'll be a disaster on the black market scale as well.
dancebabe1224
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 08:13:45 PM
 #584

if anyone would like to give me an invite it would be greatly appreciated(: i know there's like a million other people asking for them lol but it would mean sooo much if you helped me out Smiley
poppoob
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 44



View Profile
June 09, 2011, 08:19:26 PM
 #585

I really need an account on here as well I just read about it and am very interested!!

Bitcoin Address -- 1LdG1Y5YqFyuKGqoAaNvxYwJYvPpVmjHRp
Ripple Address -- rfGdubAJrzRMYWJGAK3LrdeBrm2S2W8dXp
Goldenmaw
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 08:20:55 PM
 #586

shroomer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 08:44:36 PM
 #587

Goldenmaw,

my main profession is not drug dealing,  I am an investor and a trader. All of my trading is based on fundamentals and I spend several hours every day, sometimes even during weekends, analyzing the markets and economical situation. I don't claim that I know it all, but given that I am consistently making money, I would say that I understand at least something about markets and economy.

US or any other western government can not accept deflationary currency as a legal alternative to fiat paper. It would be the same as commiting suicide. They are going to commit it anyway, but using the inflationary way, because unlike the deflation, (hyper)inflation does not kill the government and the TBTF banks (because they sit right at the business end of the printing press and get the money before the market prices in the extra zeros). Deflation today = Great Depression on steroids and US are scared to death by possibility of Second Great Depression. Great Depression is one of the most remembered events in US history, perhaps even more than WWII. It's not going to happen, and I don't need a crystal ball to predict this. If Bitcoin was legally accepted, everybody would move their inflating and increasingly risky paper assets into quickly appreciating Bitcoins, stock market would crash, real estate market too, banks would crash because they would run out of liquidity, FED would have to print like crazy to "save" the dollar, only to cause further Bitcoin appreciation, black market would flourish etc. Not going to happen. Remember that dollar is still world reserve currency and every weakening of it lowers chances of US government to get more debt and maintain it's already low credibility. No debt or loss of confidence = game over. They won't toy with such idea as accepting Bitcoin. If CIA is interested in Bitcoin, it's not because of possibility of it's acceptance by US Treasury of FED. Otherwise Gavin would be talking to Treasury or The Bernank.

Everybody, not just CIA, can monitor all Bitcoin activity. It's all logged and publicaly available. However, as I said, laundering Bitcoins is easy, using mixes. You only have to mix the money with other people's Bitcoins and put many transaction between you and the drug dealing, and you get plausible deniability, or even complete anonymity. Soon most Bitcoins will be "tainted" by drug deals and other black market operations, just like most dollar bills are tainted by cocain. At that point it's game over for law enforcement. This is not really an issue, unless the dealer is completely stupid and withdraws the Bitcoins from Silk Road directly to his bank accouts, in which case he deserves to be busted.

Bigger causes? Well, things are going to get very ugly soon as US and European economies will eventually crash (I don't know when, but certainly during this decade), so perhaps stop fighting for a good image of Bitcoin, because that's not going to happen. Maybe gold will be able to maintain good image. Freedom from state opression and crappy fiat money that are destroing our wealth through inflation and debt sounds like a worthy cause to me. It's not going to be pretty. US Founding Fathers have been killing for it. We don't have to do even that, all we have to do is to stop kidding ourselves. Sorry for sounding bit melodramatic here, but that's just what the situation is.

Also, people, listen to dunk, there really are no invites, the SR will reopen eventually once they move to a bigger server that can handle the load. Just wait for it.
Goldenmaw
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 09:18:03 PM
 #588

Damn.  You put forth a very compelling argument against Bitcoin being embraced, Shroomer.

And yet, there's a weird mirror effect here, isn't there?  The value of the Bitcoin is only how much USD you can get for it.  This is temporarily exacerbated by the fact that in a purely speculative stage, having little in the way of tradeability.  But could Bitcoin survive as a commodity, rather than a currency, like gold, other precious things?  Could the US dollar be backed by the Bitcoin?

I would appreciate your thoughts on these questions.
redblack
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 10


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 09:27:34 PM
 #589

does this invite system even exist or are you just wishing for it?
shroomer
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 09:42:50 PM
 #590

In principle, yes, but central banks own gold, and they own significant part of the supply, enough to control it's purchasing power during 80's and 90's. So if there ever will be return to commodity backed currencies, it would be gold, not Bitcoin, because of universal trust in gold, and also because of better control over it by states. This would also kill Bitcoin's chance to join official economy, because gold would be a lot more trusted and stable.

Bitcoin can in principle survive as a "commodity", specifically as a store of value (because the supply can not be inflated), but in the presence of state backed alternatives and much more trusted gold, in unstable times people will buy gold (as they are doing now), and in stable times they will use state backed paper fiat, as they did before 2008, and even more so before 2001, even though they had a possibility to store their savings in gold instead of in government debt or cash. So even though such use of Bitcoin is possible in principle, I don't think it's realistic to expect it will happen except on small scale, and then it can be ruined by a sellout. That's why I think that backing Bitcoin with black economy is it's best chance for adoption and survival. After all, it was kind of designed for such purpose, wasn't it?

I mean, we can sip a lot of power (but by no means all of it) from governments and central banks by creating almost bullet proof paralel economy, which already exists, but uses less safe (can hyperinflate at any time) paper cash and official banks (leaves trails). It won't create Utopia, but it would create a nice alternative for more freedom spirited people. There was always such possibility to "John Galt yourself from the system", but Bitcoin can make it a lot more convenient and safe.
Bind
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252

DO NOT ACCEPT PAYPAL FOR BTC YOU WILL GET BURNED


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 09:51:01 PM
 #591

To the naysayers,

Due to all the hype, rampant speculation, media attention, need of anonymity, and yes even fear and paranoia, some of us at Silk Road saw the closing of registrations coming days before it ocurred.

Given that, survival and preparedness-minded folk indeed do create back-up contingency plans for any and all possible outcomes for whatever we are involved in, so of course some have created alternate identities over at Silk Road.

Now that access is limited, we would like to help others get in using those.

That very access now has a value asssociated to it, like it or not, because it is now a closed club.

I am sorry if you disagree with that aspect, but it's just the way it is.


"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


1Dr3ig3EoBnPWq8JZrRTi8Hfp53Kj
skitzilla
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 7


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 09:53:23 PM
 #592

ive been looking for the site to purchase but cant find ppl help me plz need something cheap

AQAvpGHZ2Vk6kYvMpbowv6NUYeM8TUtHij
Goldenmaw
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 84


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 09:57:14 PM
 #593

In principle, yes, but central banks own gold, and they own significant part of the supply, enough to control it's purchasing power during 80's and 90's. So if there ever will be return to commodity backed currencies, it would be gold, not Bitcoin, because of universal trust in gold, and also because of better control over it by states. This would also kill Bitcoin's chance to join official economy, because gold would be a lot more trusted and stable.

Bitcoin can in principle survive as a "commodity", specifically as a store of value (because the supply can not be inflated), but in the presence of state backed alternatives and much more trusted gold, in unstable times people will buy gold (as they are doing now), and in stable times they will use state backed paper fiat, as they did before 2008, and even more so before 2001, even though they had a possibility to store their savings in gold instead of in government debt or cash. So even though such use of Bitcoin is possible in principle, I don't think it's realistic to expect it will happen except on small scale, and then it can be ruined by a sellout. That's why I think that backing Bitcoin with black economy is it's best chance for adoption and survival. After all, it was kind of designed for such purpose, wasn't it?

I mean, we can sip a lot of power (but by no means all of it) from governments and central banks by creating almost bullet proof paralel economy, which already exists, but uses less safe (can hyperinflate at any time) paper cash and official banks (leaves trails). It won't create Utopia, but it would create a nice alternative for more freedom spirited people. There was always such possibility to "John Galt yourself from the system", but Bitcoin can make it a lot more convenient and safe.

Interesting.  I wonder if it's already too late the black economy?  But I've already spoke on that.  Thanks for your insight!
Bind
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 252

DO NOT ACCEPT PAYPAL FOR BTC YOU WILL GET BURNED


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 10:02:43 PM
 #594

Silk Road is NOT an illegal drug market.

Silk Road is an anonymous market.

There are hundreds of legal items up for sale on Silk Road.

Much like anything else, Silk Road can be used for both legal and illegal purposes, like peer to peer file sharing, cryptography, proxies, the INTERNET, the telephone, fax machines, gun shows, guns, knives, perscription drugs, and my pencil (I can write a letter or stab you in the eye with it) ... and to many others to mention.


"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


1Dr3ig3EoBnPWq8JZrRTi8Hfp53Kj
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1666



View Profile
June 09, 2011, 10:15:18 PM
 #595

In principle, yes, but central banks own gold, and they own significant part of the supply, enough to control it's purchasing power during 80's and 90's. So if there ever will be return to commodity backed currencies, it would be gold, not Bitcoin, because of universal trust in gold, and also because of better control over it by states. This would also kill Bitcoin's chance to join official economy, because gold would be a lot more trusted and stable.


This is probably true, but likely irrelevent since the central banks cannot return to a gold standard and maintain.  Even if they did, I'd consider this entire experiment a success on that note alone.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
BitterTea
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 294



View Profile
June 09, 2011, 10:20:59 PM
 #596

You put forth a very compelling argument against Bitcoin being embraced, Shroomer.

Bitcoin is attractive to individuals for the same reason that it is unattractive to banks and governments. People just aren't aware that they're constantly getting fucked by the current system yet.

edit... If you think I'm full of shit, I challenge you to listen to this talk by G. Edward Griffin.
unnamed0201
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 10:27:45 PM
 #597

hey i was wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction.. how do i create an account through silkroad? i saw this thread (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=14153.0) but didnt help much..

is registration closed? if so is there anyway i can register?
dr00155
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 10:39:34 PM
 #598

How long will it take before it will reopen?
redblack
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 10


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 10:41:05 PM
 #599

due the attention that this great service is getting from the media, congers, and law enforcement i think you have to rule out ever opening it again  up for new users.   it just not safe anymore.
Parallax
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3


View Profile
June 09, 2011, 10:46:06 PM
 #600

Hi there everybody... I had an account on silk road before it closed but I can't access it anymore. Just want to know if its been deleted or not (I didn't have any bitcoins on it yet but still  Embarrassed) IF I can't get my account back I'd still like to keep up with some members via SILC or IRC. If someone could pm me with help on connecting to the SILCroad chat please do so  Wink.

another shameless color post to stand out from spam
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 [30] 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!