Why do people think income tax is ok?

[leannemckim46]

Income tax is ok but not if the tax is use to fund wars...

[bryant.coleman]

Income tax is ok but not if the tax is use to fund wars...

All the wars are funded by tax money.... including the recent American invasion of Iraq.

[davedx]

[...]
I say you can choose yours, if you let me choose mine. Tolerant.

You say my way won't work. And that it's morally wrong. No-one should be allowed to choose this way. Pretty intolerant.
[...]

But you live within a society, the choice isn't yours alone. Further, those who would benefit most from some form of social safety-net as you put it, are usually those who have the most difficulty making their needs heard.

The idea of giving people more responsibility is quite popular, so it's not just me and the others here. Why not empower the socially dependent in society to be able to live in a way with the minimum of help? This is a very common thing you hear from people with physical disabilities; they value the freedom to be able to live as independent a life as they can.

I'm friends with somebody who is disabled. I met him because we both worked at the same place.

In one sense you are correct: I am 100% sure that he values his ability to make his own way and work as a capable employee of the company.

In another sense I think you do not see how much "dependent members of society" *need* help. He has an apartment that is provided by the government at a reduced rate, with all of the extra accessibility to support his disability (he's in a wheelchair). I am almost certain that without help from the state, even with his decent job's salary he would not be able to afford the apartment.

Without the "safety net" -- which in millions of cases is not a complete safety net, but a helping hand to ensure people have a decent standard of living because DESPITE the fact they can work, they still cannot afford that standard of living -- he would not have this opportunity.

You talk a lot about how we shouldn't be able to impose our beliefs on others. But we have this system in place *right now*. If you had your way, you would *take this away* from my friend. Are you OK with this?

Yes, I would be very comfortable with this, because I'm not entitled to what your friend has. I've burned my social security card in 1991, and I have no healthcare in the country I'm currently staying. Most people living in rich countries can't imagine it, but billions of men, women and children in Asia and Africa live without healthcare paid for by the government, and there's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is the culture of entitlement that so many have in rich countries. People believing that they belong to a superior species and that there should an even superior entity, the state, which will provide for all their basic needs and well-being. That superior entity, your country, it's an invention, and it doesn't work. It's failing everywhere, without rising deficits in every country.

There are more and more people on benefits and pensioners and less and less people to pay for them, so this whole redistribution system is doomed, and I'm happy not to be a part of it.

You know what, I'm out of this thread.

I see now some people have no problem with returning to societies where those unable to fend for themselves are left to die in the streets.

Fortunately I believe these people are in the minority.

Good luck with your infantile libertarian wankfest.

[TheButterZone]

You know what, I'm out of this thread.

I see now some people have no problem with returning to societies where those unable to fend for themselves are left to die in the streets.

Fortunately I believe these people are in the minority.

Good luck with your infantile libertarian wankfest.

Good luck with your counter-reality wankfest where nobody is privately charitable and all assistance for the needy has to be obtained at gunpoint.

[countryfree]

You know what, I'm out of this thread.

I see now some people have no problem with returning to societies where those unable to fend for themselves are left to die in the streets.

Fortunately I believe these people are in the minority.

Good luck with your infantile libertarian wankfest.

Sorry to correct you, but you don't know the world you're living in. We are the majority.

In India and on most of Africa, there are thousands dying in the streets everyday. According to the U.N. there are 842 million people who do not have enough to eat. I know many people are just dreamers, and the news only confirm this: the U.S. House just once again raised the debt limit. I'm proud to say I'm standing on my two feet while you're sitting on hot air.

[u9y42]

You know what, I'm out of this thread.

I see now some people have no problem with returning to societies where those unable to fend for themselves are left to die in the streets.

Fortunately I believe these people are in the minority.

Good luck with your infantile libertarian wankfest.

Sorry to correct you, but you don't know the world you're living in. We are the majority.

In India and on most of Africa, there are thousands dying in the streets everyday. According to the U.N. there are 842 million people who do not have enough to eat. I know many people are just dreamers, and the news only confirm this: the U.S. House just once again raised the debt limit. I'm proud to say I'm standing on my two feet while you're sitting on hot air.

How exactly does people starving by the millions equate in any way to them agreeing with you?

[countryfree]

You know what, I'm out of this thread.

I see now some people have no problem with returning to societies where those unable to fend for themselves are left to die in the streets.

Fortunately I believe these people are in the minority.

Good luck with your infantile libertarian wankfest.

Sorry to correct you, but you don't know the world you're living in. We are the majority.

In India and on most of Africa, there are thousands dying in the streets everyday. According to the U.N. there are 842 million people who do not have enough to eat. I know many people are just dreamers, and the news only confirm this: the U.S. House just once again raised the debt limit. I'm proud to say I'm standing on my two feet while you're sitting on hot air.

How exactly does people starving by the millions equate in any way to them agreeing with you?

It's not what I meant. My point is a reaction to the idea that income tax makes the world a nice place where's everybody's safe and happy. This is not the case. There are very heavy taxes in Spain, France, Greece and all those countries have huge and growing debt. And more than one billion people live with less than $2 a day. So I guess it was worth trying the idea of an income tax, but it just doesn't work. It may have been good for a while, but in the long term, it's simply not sustainable, and the world will get back to what it was before income tax was invented. I'm ready for it.

[5thStreetResearch]

The power to tax is the power to destroy. I think income tax and property tax are just wrong. What do you think?

I think you should go live in somalia

[TheButterZone]

The power to tax is the power to destroy. I think income tax and property tax are just wrong. What do you think?

I think you should go live in somalia

I think you should go live in Somalia and spew your statist fallacies from their sitting government's facilities.

[bryant.coleman]

It's not what I meant. My point is a reaction to the idea that income tax makes the world a nice place where's everybody's safe and happy.

Income tax makes the world a nice place where the bankers and politicians are safe and happy

[bitlancr]

I see now some people have no problem with returning to societies where those unable to fend for themselves are left to die in the streets.

You fail to see that compassion and generosity are completely independent from government and the power to tax.

Anybody is free to help anyone else voluntarily, but they shouldn't expect the right to stick their hand in others' pockets to do it.

[DieJohnny]

Income tax and property tax are immoral.

Taxation in and of itself is a necessity but as a society we need to always evolve to the lesser of any two evils. For example, paying a tax while you use something or buy some types of things is ok as you are getting a benefit in your use of a road for example and in your use of the ecosystem supported by regulation.

I support VAT tax and sales tax 100%, but not WITH income tax and property tax.

Elect me as dictator of the USA for six months and I will fix taxation in the US for the better, it will never get fixed without a dictator.

[DieJohnny]

I support VAT tax and sales tax 100%, but not WITH income tax and property tax.

You know VAT and sales taxes are regressive right? They are disproportionately levied on people with low incomes, though I guess that suits you just fine.

The notion that a tax is inherently regressive or progressive is a big distorted lie to keep existing systems in power. There is absolutely nothing about any tax that is set in stone, there is no Bible of taxation about how VAT or sales taxes are implemented.

Quit supporting the powers that be by choosing to believe in these lies. Tax credits, Tax-free products, progressive percentages, on and on, the options are endless to provide protections for the poor.

So please stop aiding and abetting the enemy.

[roslinpl]

The power to tax is the power to destroy. I think income tax and property tax are just wrong. What do you think?

Without taxes city and country will not stay alieve in this case.

But to make them lower - why not ( and put highr price on something else:P )

[TheButterZone]

I support VAT tax and sales tax 100%, but not WITH income tax and property tax.

You know VAT and sales taxes are regressive right? They are disproportionately levied on people with low incomes, though I guess that suits you just fine.

Anybody is free to help anyone else voluntarily, but they shouldn't expect the right to stick their hand in others' pockets to do it.

This is an abhorrent point of view. You prefer to defend the right of the wealthy to hold on to their property than the right of poor people not to starve or die from illness, even though that wealth is usually obtained by exploiting their labour.

Zombie labour?

[TheButterZone]

So the wealthy exploit labour until all the labourers die? It's not a zero-sum game. People have to be kept alive for you to continue violating their human rights. If the government stopped feeding the walking dead, we'd be forced to exercise our rights and LIVE, and the wealthy wouldn't be as so, anymore.

[Ekaros]

So the wealthy exploit labour until all the labourers die? It's not a zero-sum game. People have to be kept alive for you to continue violating their human rights. If the government stopped feeding the walking dead, we'd be forced to exercise our rights and LIVE, and the wealthy wouldn't be as so, anymore.

Live on what? And where?

[DieJohnny]

So please stop aiding and abetting the enemy.

My my, aren't you precious.

Quit supporting the powers that be by choosing to believe in these lies. Tax credits, Tax-free products, progressive percentages, on and on, the options are endless to provide protections for the poor.

I was naturally referring to sales taxes as they currently exist, and would be interested to hear your proposal for a progressively administered sales tax. Even so, how on earth would it compensate for the lack of all income and property taxes without being something like a 500% tax rate?

1. Tax exemption for first x amount of purchases based on category, would require tech big deal
2. Create purchase categories like perishables, essentials (clothing), semi durable (fridge), durable (car), stocks, real estate. Each with its own yearly tax exemption for different amounts.
3. for semi durable, durable and real estate, use a graduated tax scale. Million dollar homes are taxed at escalating higher rates as price of home increases.

There would be no problems at all generating enough revenue from this model to pay for EVERYTHING easily. Guess what.... poor pay little, rich will pay a lot and will always pay a lot because what is the point of being rich if you can't spend it.

[bryant.coleman]

Here is an example that income tax doesn't work:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/81979/there-has-been-a-record-221-spike-in-americans-renouncing-their-citizenship-here-s-why

[bitlancr]

You prefer to defend the right of the wealthy to hold on to their property than the right of poor people not to starve or die from illness, even though that wealth is usually obtained by exploiting their labour.

You're damn right I do. Learn the difference between positive and negative rights, and you might understand.

I also want the poor to have good healthcare and education. Get that? Socialists seem to think that compassion is dependent on coercion.