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Author Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency  (Read 9568878 times)
Joshuar
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April 03, 2015, 11:46:14 PM
 #92201


along with optional transparency.

Transparency means that the whole world can see every block - their's and everyone else's.

The "viewkey" concept already exists - it's called a private key. It only has value because it has leverage over a communal resource. Bitcoin already has privacy perfectly worked out using that model. What's missing is that over time, the tokens can form patterns that are identifiable. So the solution to that is to support conditional large scale recycling of the tokens periodically to keep them "fungible" - job done.

Burying the whole blockchain from view is just kissing your entire value proposition goodbye.


What? No, the private key is your funds, without said private key, you own no "x"coins. The viewkey is nothing like the private key, the viewkey only allows a 3rd party to view your holdings, they can't do anything else, they can't even see who you sent (x) amount, or who sent you (x) amount.

You can see every block, you just can't see what's happening(Where the funds are getting sent to, etc). Basically, you see only very general things like amount of coins emitted, nothing specific that would would link "1+1" together.

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April 03, 2015, 11:54:48 PM
 #92202

,,,

....for the meantime and for the distant future, .....

So you are in agreement.

Monero is temporary.

Good for you. Make your money, and dump it on the suckers that don't do their research.
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April 03, 2015, 11:56:30 PM
 #92203

They provoke you and then come here with their insistent advertising  Roll Eyes

It is easier to be an aggressive victim than to be a free man.
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April 03, 2015, 11:57:47 PM
 #92204


The viewkey is nothing like the private key, the viewkey only allows a 3rd party to view your holdings, they can't do anything else, they can't even see who you sent (x) amount, or who sent you (x) amount.

That's my point.

You DO want to see that. You want to see the blockcain in operation - every single aspect of it and every address. You just don't want to be able to know who's controlling those addresses. That's where the fungibility comes in. How do you think people have been getting away with all these Bitcoin heists lately without every being found ?

Making it invisible isn't an option - because it ceases to have any monetary value. Visibility is an essential element of monetary value since most forms of money are some kind of 'call' on a common resource and that common resource must be out in the open - even though the private keys to control it are not.

Take a gold bar - it has value because it is part of the universally endorsed continuum known as the element with atomic number 79. The only reason it has value is because gold is an "out there" thing. Sure I can shove it under my bed but no-one's going to buy it from me unless I put it back in the public domain to have it rubber stamped as part of what everyone else agrees is that particular element of the earth's crust.

Similarly, a private key which controls part of a blockchain who's existence is only implicit will always be worth less than one that controls part of a blockchain thats explicit.

In both cases - as long as the tokens are sufficiently fungible - privacy is preserved because my private key is...."private"  Wink

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April 04, 2015, 12:01:32 AM
 #92205

They provoke you and then come here with their insistent advertising  Roll Eyes

Well, they NEED to advertise...  Roll Eyes

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April 04, 2015, 12:02:25 AM
 #92206

They provoke you and then come here with their insistent advertising  Roll Eyes

Well, they NEED to advertise...  Roll Eyes

they NEED to advertise for suckers.....

Fixed it for you  Wink

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April 04, 2015, 12:07:48 AM
 #92207


The viewkey is nothing like the private key, the viewkey only allows a 3rd party to view your holdings, they can't do anything else, they can't even see who you sent (x) amount, or who sent you (x) amount.

That's my point.

You DO want to see that. You want to see the blockcain in operation - every single aspect of it and every address. You just don't want to be able to know who's controlling those addresses. That's where the fungibility comes in. How do you think people have been getting away with all these Bitcoin heists lately without every being found ?

Making it invisible isn't an option - because it ceases to have any monetary value. Visibility is an essential element of monetary value since most forms of money are some kind of 'call' on a common resource and that common resource must be out in the open - even though the private keys to control it are not.

Take a gold bar - it has value because it is part of the universal continuum known as the element with atomic number 79. The only reason it has value is because gold is an "out there" thing. Sure I can shove it under my bed but no-one's going to buy it from me unless I put it back in the public domain to have it rubber stamped as part of what everyone else agrees is that particular element of the earth's crust.

Similarly, a private key which controls part of a blockchain who's existence is only implicit will always be worth less than one that controls part of a blockchain thats explicit.

In both cases - as long as the tokens are sifficiently fungible - privacy is retained because my private key is...."private"  Wink



Does the USD operate the way you propose right here? Does the government see every transaction that people make with their physical FIAT bills? Nope, so if even government issued currencies aren't that transparent, why restrict cryptocurrencies that way? Being "invisible" has nothing to do with it, as I previously said, Cryptonote coins are not invisible, they are "visible", but there is nothing you can know about the sender or receiver, which is how it's supposed to be and what makes them fungible and anonymous/private. Compare the amount and total value of bitcoins stolen vs the amount and total value of Fiat holdings stolen. The amount of bitcoins stolen are in the hundreds of millions, the amount of fiat stolen are in the hundreds of billions.

What you're describing isn't Cryptonote or even Coinjoin, it's Zerocash. If you're talking about "invisiblity" and not being able to see anything at all happening, sure, that's what Zerocash gives.

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April 04, 2015, 12:15:02 AM
 #92208

let me have this one..

taadaaaa..  Grin

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April 04, 2015, 12:16:46 AM
 #92209

let me have this one..

taadaaaa..  Grin

Can you go fuck yourself away please ? Cheesy

I'd give you 1 dash to buy up you a brain Smiley
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April 04, 2015, 12:19:27 AM
 #92210



That was funny...


BTC:   1KjAPEa3WvhmDGT4jmT9i5P3UPFdFH629e
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April 04, 2015, 12:31:14 AM
Last edit: April 04, 2015, 12:41:42 AM by toknormal
 #92211


so if even government issued currencies aren't that transparent, why restrict cryptocurrencies that way?

Fiat currencies are operated by a counterparty known as the banking system and they are totally transparent to that counterparty.

In crypto, the counterparty is eliminated but so are the "people". The cryptocurrency money system is just a ledger with numbers. I notice that in your previous posts you've used terms like "you can't see who they sent it to". That implies that you see people as synonymous with blockchain addresses which they are not. Only a private key is directly associated with a blockchain address. Even at that level there's not even any sense in which anyone is associated with a private key other than that they have access to it.

So you cannot see "who" anyone's sending money to even though you can see coins moving between addresses. Any associations can only be inferred. Making that monetary movement invisible doesn't do anything for privacy, it just makes the whole blockchain suffer a loss of integrity and credibility. It's an engine, not a telephone book.

Cryptonote coins are not invisible, they are "visible"

Do you mean I can just parachute in without a "viewkey" and see what's in every address, see which address transfers were made to and from and so on ? Because thats what I mean. As I've described above, that isn't a breach of privacy that's just being able to endorse the integrity of the system. Any money system needs an arbitration layer. In fiat it's the banking system, in crypto it's the public. Take that away and your money's worth nothing. A "viewkey" to see a single account doesn't cut it. This is another area where cryptonote has the systems analysis all wrong. The analogue of the "arbiter" in the fiat system is the banking system itself, not some auditor that comes and visits your office.

The fungibility of the tokens is a different matter. That can be massively improved by embedding what I've called previously a "cash drawer" mechanism or token recycler to keep the whole blockchain at a high level of fungibility so that patterns remain largely random. That's the real challenge here, not obscuring it from view. Your private key is already obscured from view using the most secure cryptology known to man.
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April 04, 2015, 12:46:51 AM
Last edit: April 04, 2015, 01:25:45 AM by Joshuar
 #92212


so if even government issued currencies aren't that transparent, why restrict cryptocurrencies that way?

Fiat currencies are operated by a counterparty known as the banking system and they are totally transparent to that counterparty.

In crypto, the counterparty is eliminated but so are the "people". The cryptocurrency money system is just a ledger with numbers. I notice that in your previous posts you've used terms like "you can't see who they sent it to". That implies that you see people as synonymous with blockchain addresses which they are not. Only a private key is directly associated with a blockchain address. Even at that level there's not even any sense in which anyone is associated with a private key other than that they have access to it.

So you cannot see "who" anyone's sending money to even though you can see coins moving between addresses. Any associations can only be inferred. Making that monetary movement invisible doesn't do anything for privacy, it just makes the whole blockchain suffer a loss integrity and credibility. It's an engine, not a telephone book.

Cryptonote coins are not invisible, they are "visible"

Do you mean I can just parachute in without a "viewkey" and see what's in every address, see which address transfers were made to and from and so on ? Because thats what I mean. As I've described above, that isn't a breach of privacy that's just being able to endorse the integrity of the system. Any money system needs an arbitration layer. In fiat it's the banking system, in crypto it's the public. Take that away and your money's worth nothing. A "viewkey" to see a single account doesn't cut it. This is another area where cryptonote has the systems analysis all wrong. The analogue of the "arbiter" in the fiat system is the banking system itself, not some auditor that comes and visits your office.

The fungibility of the tokens is a different matter. That can be massively improved by embedding what I've called previously a "cash drawer" mechanism or token recycler to keep the whole blockchain at a high level of fungibility so that patterns remain largely random. That's the real challenge here, not obscuring it from view. Your private key is already obscured from view using the most secure cryptology known to man.

What are the definitions upon the terms by which you're using? You're making it seem as if fungibility and "invisiblity" are the same things. "Invisiblity" cannot be seen or made out, such a thing is not in Cryptonote. Cryptonote gives you the option to allow yourself to be transparent(By using a mixin of 0), or to allow yourself to be anonymous/private. It's not restricted in any one way. The points that you're making has nothing to do with Cryptonote, as Zerocash is the only anon scheme that makes it so that literally everything is "invisible", to the extent that you can't even prove you own (x) amount of coins in your own wallet.

The blockchain is not just a monetary system, Bitcoin is not just a currency, it's a commodity and more as well. You're restricting the blockchain by putting it into little neat categories that you picked out, and you're wrong. What you've said in your earlier posts was


You want to see the blockcain in operation - every single aspect of it and every address. You just don't want to be able to know who's controlling those addresses. That's where the fungibility comes in.



So, why are you going back and forth? What you've previously said is exactly what Cryptonote does. Cryptonote is not "invisible", it's visible but obscured you can say, so you can see a general outline of things happening(Like # of coins emitted), but you can't delve any deeper.



Do you mean I can just parachute in without a "viewkey" and see what's in every address, see which address transfers were made to and from and so on ? Because thats what I mean. As I've described above, that isn't a breach of privacy that's just being able to endorse the integrity of the system.

What? What you're describing isn't privacy, so you went from being a supporter of privacy to a now supporter of total transparency? If I were to give you a $20 bill, will you be able to see who previously had that $20 bill? So then why would you not want the same thing for crtypcurrencies?



Fiat currencies are operated by a counterparty known as the banking system and they are totally transparent to that counterparty.


Ok? Why did Satoshi make bitcoin/the blockchain? To get away from middlemen aka the banking system. That's the entire point of the blockchain being created, what you're proposing is a step backwards to those middlemen. Having an arbiter is useless when speaking about cryptocurrencies, you simply don't need one. Cryptocurrencies are supposed to be decentralized and not have to rely on a centralized authority to make decisions or oversee things, you saying that we need an arbiter is taking a step back towards the traditional banking/monetary system, which is what we(everyone or mostly everyone involved with Bitcoin/cryptos) are against.

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April 04, 2015, 12:51:14 AM
 #92213

A little bird told me we will hit .02 tomorrow and beyond! Get ready folks it's time to rumbleeeeeeeeeeeessssseeeeeeeeeeee!
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April 04, 2015, 12:55:00 AM
 #92214

A little bird told me we will hit .02 tomorrow and beyond! Get ready folks it's time to rumbleeeeeeeeeeeessssseeeeeeeeeeee!

No doubt with the best cryptocurrency ever created  Wink
Sapereaude
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April 04, 2015, 12:57:59 AM
Last edit: April 04, 2015, 01:16:54 AM by Sapereaude
 #92215

Was a little bored today so I made a list of the top posters over the last month:


User   Posts
toknormal   436
GhostPlayer   375
etoque   341
coins101   305
bigrcanada   271
oblox   238
qwizzie   222
AdamWhite   217
Sub-Ether   215
Minotaur26   208
iCEBREAKER   169
RenegadeMan   168
TaoOfSaatoshi   165
tungfa   152
illodin   144
BrainShutdown   140
stonehedge   135
TanteStefana2   129
Mangled Blue   123
Rux   122
BlockaFett   118
sangoku   109
qvan   103
splawik21   97
smooth   94
Kai Proctor   89
Otoh   88
ahoenk   87
MasterMined710   85
wpalczynski   81
r4vani   80

edit: No idea how to post tables here

edit 2:

Top 8 Posters Troll vs. Dash   
   
Dashing Dashers   
toknormal   436
GhostPlayer   375
etoque   341
coins101   305
bigrcanada   271
oblox   238
Sub-Ether   215
Minotaur26   208
Total   2389
   
Troll Brigade   
qwizzie   222
AdamWhite   217
iCEBREAKER   169
sangoku   109
qvan   103
smooth   94
wpalczynski   81
r4vani   80
Total   1075
Lebubar
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April 04, 2015, 01:04:54 AM
 #92216

Lol.

Smooth 94, so that confirm that his work consist in posting on bct...
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April 04, 2015, 01:16:48 AM
 #92217

Evan, check your PMs and sign onto Dashtalk!
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April 04, 2015, 01:47:22 AM
 #92218

Evan, check your PMs and sign onto Dashtalk!

Fixed! It wasn't a fork, this was due to something with masternodes and multisig donations. The reference node is just going to ignore those, so we shouldn't have issues anymore. We just got 3 blocks in the last couple of minutes, everything is ok.

Dash - Digital Cash | dash.org | dashfoundation.io | dashgo.io
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April 04, 2015, 01:47:27 AM
 #92219

BLOCKS!
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April 04, 2015, 01:47:32 AM
 #92220


Block 246491
Pages: « 1 ... 4561 4562 4563 4564 4565 4566 4567 4568 4569 4570 4571 4572 4573 4574 4575 4576 4577 4578 4579 4580 4581 4582 4583 4584 4585 4586 4587 4588 4589 4590 4591 4592 4593 4594 4595 4596 4597 4598 4599 4600 4601 4602 4603 4604 4605 4606 4607 4608 4609 4610 [4611] 4612 4613 4614 4615 4616 4617 4618 4619 4620 4621 4622 4623 4624 4625 4626 4627 4628 4629 4630 4631 4632 4633 4634 4635 4636 4637 4638 4639 4640 4641 4642 4643 4644 4645 4646 4647 4648 4649 4650 4651 4652 4653 4654 4655 4656 4657 4658 4659 4660 4661 ... 6831 »
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