[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[xxxgoodgirls]

What's the best (in terms of security, resources usage, etc) in order to run a MN: buying a separate PC to run a masternode or run it from your daily used PC?

[naxin]

What's the best (in terms of security, resources usage, etc) in order to run a MN: buying a separate PC to run a masternode or run it from your daily used PC?

Neither - running it on your daily PC is horribly dumb, and buying a separate PC doesn't make economic sense (hardware + electricity + etc) - you want to rent a server. $5 / month

[illodin]

Scenario: 3000 masternodes exist, I have 1. After 500 blocks, I get my payment. At this point I wouldn't be eligible for another payment for 2500 blocks. However, I could send the coins to a new address and restart the masternode, and once its confirmed I'm eligible again immediately, this time it takes say 2000 blocks, but after I do the same, new node. And finally a third time I get my payment after 1000 blocks.

Summary: 3500 blocks have been found. I have gotten 3 payments. Ideally, I should have only gotten 1 payment in this time - 3 would require 9000 blocks.

What am I missing?

Dunno if you're missing anything, but maybe you should have to have number_of_masternodes confirmations before you're eligible for payment?

EDIT: You described a scenario which was very lucky for you. With your example numbers, if your node is new, you have 1/3000 chance of getting paid each block. It doesn't mean you're guaranteed to be paid after 3000 blocks at the latest. It could just as well go like this: after 500 blocks, you get your first payment. Then you create a new MN with your 1000 DRK, but this time it will take 10000 blocks to get the first payment.

[eduffield]

For anyone who's interested, a sneak peak at the next release of Darkcoin:

TLDR:

- Next release will go out in the next two days probably, I'm going with the community and calling it "The Onyx Release"
- It features mandatory, non-exploitable Masternode payments.
- Masternode payments are completely predictable now. I.e., if there's 2000 masternodes you can expect 1 payment every 4 days (divide the amount of nodes by the blocks per day to get your ROI).
- Masternode payments will go to 25% one week from release (non-manditory)
- Afterwards I encourage the community to find the pools still paying 20% and contact them to make sure they update their stratum before it's too late
- Masternode payments beyond that will increase to 30% in November, 35% in December and continue on until we get at least 3000 masternodes.
- Huge security updates to Darksend. It's much more robust and can take a beating.

How does the payouts work for new nodes coming online? They won't need to catch up to existing payouts, right?

Also interested in how this is done!

Even if there isn't a minimum 'age' for MNs to start receiving payments, I think the system will be pretty hard to game - you can't launch a thousand MNs without a million DRK, after all.

It's a true proof-of-service setup now. Each new node has a 1 in N (total number of masternodes) chance of receiving a payment each block. After a payment, they must wait N blocks to receive another one (give or take 10%). There's no room for gaming the system because it's using math based off of the proof-of-work to prove the node won, plus you'd have to wait 15 confirmations each time you moved money around and that takes from your profit too.

What do you mean there is no room for gaming the system?

Scenario: 3000 masternodes exist, I have 1. After 500 blocks, I get my payment. At this point I wouldn't be eligible for another payment for 2500 blocks. However, I could send the coins to a new address and restart the masternode, and once its confirmed I'm eligible again immediately, this time it takes say 2000 blocks, but after I do the same, new node. And finally a third time I get my payment after 1000 blocks.

Summary: 3500 blocks have been found. I have gotten 3 payments. Ideally, I should have only gotten 1 payment in this time - 3 would require 9000 blocks.

What am I missing?

Statistically they won't fare any better, actually a bit worse:

Code:

from random import randint

s = []

while True:
	for i in range(1, 10000): #10000 blocks
		if randint(1, 1001) == 1000: #1 in 1000 chance each block
			print i+15 #requires 15 confirmations
			s.append(i+15)  #keep track
			break

	if len(s) > 1000: break #if we have 1000 simulated results, lets add them up


total = 0
count = 0
for a in s:
	total += a
	count += 1.0

print total / count

On average, it's about 1015 (1 in N, N=1000, plus 15 required confirmations) which is a tad worse then they'd make just by collecting the earnings

1020.45654346
1009.71328671
1005.93606394
1034.06093906
1084.23576424
1023.8951049
1018.07992008
1024.26173826

Plus check out the blocks between payments, this would drive someone crazy:

2452
3777
1187
351
177
580
1195
952
2270
1083
781
1378
987
1535
2805
425
1092
1890
210
946
953
409
865
56

EDIT: There might be a bias to the newer node based on the fact that the algorithm is skipping nodes that don't qualify. Whenever it hits the newer node it would automatically qualify. In that case I could just introduce a greater minimum amount of confirmations before a payment to cancel out the bias.  

[illodin]

What's the best (in terms of security, resources usage, etc) in order to run a MN: buying a separate PC to run a masternode or run it from your daily used PC?

Neither - running it on your daily PC is horribly dumb, and buying a separate PC doesn't make economic sense (hardware + electricity + etc) - you want to rent a server. $5 / month

And this is also an option: https://darkcointalk.org/threads/service-masternode-hosting-service.2648/

[tungfa]

For anyone who's interested, a sneak peak at the next release of Darkcoin:

TLDR:

- Next release will go out in the next two days probably, I'm going with the community and calling it "The Onyx Release"
- It features mandatory, non-exploitable Masternode payments.
- Masternode payments are completely predictable now. I.e., if there's 2000 masternodes you can expect 1 payment every 4 days (divide the amount of nodes by the blocks per day to get your ROI).
- Masternode payments will go to 25% one week from release (non-manditory)
- Afterwards I encourage the community to find the pools still paying 20% and contact them to make sure they update their stratum before it's too late
- Masternode payments beyond that will increase to 30% in November, 35% in December and continue on until we get at least 3000 masternodes.
- Huge security updates to Darksend. It's much more robust and can take a beating.

How does the payouts work for new nodes coming online? They won't need to catch up to existing payouts, right?

Also interested in how this is done!

Even if there isn't a minimum 'age' for MNs to start receiving payments, I think the system will be pretty hard to game - you can't launch a thousand MNs without a million DRK, after all.

It's a true proof-of-service setup now. Each new node has a 1 in N (total number of masternodes) chance of receiving a payment each block. After a payment, they must wait N blocks to receive another one (give or take 10%). There's no room for gaming the system because it's using math based off of the proof-of-work to prove the node won, plus you'd have to wait 15 confirmations each time you moved money around and that takes from your profit too.

What do you mean there is no room for gaming the system?

Scenario: 3000 masternodes exist, I have 1. After 500 blocks, I get my payment. At this point I wouldn't be eligible for another payment for 2500 blocks. However, I could send the coins to a new address and restart the masternode, and once its confirmed I'm eligible again immediately, this time it takes say 2000 blocks, but after I do the same, new node. And finally a third time I get my payment after 1000 blocks.

Summary: 3500 blocks have been found. I have gotten 3 payments. Ideally, I should have only gotten 1 payment in this time - 3 would require 9000 blocks.

What am I missing?

Statistically they won't fare any better, actually a bit worse:

Code:

from random import randint

s = []

while True:
	for i in range(1, 10000): #10000 blocks
		if randint(1, 1001) == 1000: #1 in 1000 chance each block
			print i+15 #requires 15 confirmations
			s.append(i+15)  #keep track
			break

	if len(s) > 1000: break #if we have 1000 simulated results, lets add them up


total = 0
count = 0
for a in s:
	total += a
	count += 1.0

print total / count

On average, it's about 1015 (1 in N, N=1000, plus 15 required confirmations) which is a tad worse then they'd make just by collecting the earnings

1020.45654346
1009.71328671
1005.93606394
1034.06093906
1084.23576424
1023.8951049
1018.07992008
1024.26173826

Plus check out the blocks between payments, this would drive someone crazy:

2452
3777
1187
351
177
580
1195
952
2270
1083
781
1378
987
1535
2805
425
1092
1890
210
946
953
409
865
56

EDIT: There might be a bias to the newer node based on the fact that the algorithm is skipping nodes that don't qualify. Whenever it hits the newer node it would automatically qualify. In that case I could just introduce a greater minimum amount of confirmations before a payment to cancel out the bias.  

whow evan
you are really on it

question:
if we want/need/ are pushing for another 1000 MN's now
that would be 1 Mill coins ! where are people supposed to buy them from !?
there is really very low volume on all exchanges !?
you will not drop the 1000 DRK to a lower number to encourage more MN's at all

[naxin]

For anyone who's interested, a sneak peak at the next release of Darkcoin:

TLDR:

- Next release will go out in the next two days probably, I'm going with the community and calling it "The Onyx Release"
- It features mandatory, non-exploitable Masternode payments.
- Masternode payments are completely predictable now. I.e., if there's 2000 masternodes you can expect 1 payment every 4 days (divide the amount of nodes by the blocks per day to get your ROI).
- Masternode payments will go to 25% one week from release (non-manditory)
- Afterwards I encourage the community to find the pools still paying 20% and contact them to make sure they update their stratum before it's too late
- Masternode payments beyond that will increase to 30% in November, 35% in December and continue on until we get at least 3000 masternodes.
- Huge security updates to Darksend. It's much more robust and can take a beating.

How does the payouts work for new nodes coming online? They won't need to catch up to existing payouts, right?

Also interested in how this is done!

Even if there isn't a minimum 'age' for MNs to start receiving payments, I think the system will be pretty hard to game - you can't launch a thousand MNs without a million DRK, after all.

It's a true proof-of-service setup now. Each new node has a 1 in N (total number of masternodes) chance of receiving a payment each block. After a payment, they must wait N blocks to receive another one (give or take 10%). There's no room for gaming the system because it's using math based off of the proof-of-work to prove the node won, plus you'd have to wait 15 confirmations each time you moved money around and that takes from your profit too.

What do you mean there is no room for gaming the system?

Scenario: 3000 masternodes exist, I have 1. After 500 blocks, I get my payment. At this point I wouldn't be eligible for another payment for 2500 blocks. However, I could send the coins to a new address and restart the masternode, and once its confirmed I'm eligible again immediately, this time it takes say 2000 blocks, but after I do the same, new node. And finally a third time I get my payment after 1000 blocks.

Summary: 3500 blocks have been found. I have gotten 3 payments. Ideally, I should have only gotten 1 payment in this time - 3 would require 9000 blocks.

What am I missing?

Statistically they won't fare any better, actually a bit worse:

Code:

from random import randint

s = []

while True:
	for i in range(1, 10000): #10000 blocks
		if randint(1, 1001) == 1000: #1 in 1000 chance each block
			print i+15 #requires 15 confirmations
			s.append(i+15)  #keep track
			break

	if len(s) > 1000: break #if we have 1000 simulated results, lets add them up


total = 0
count = 0
for a in s:
	total += a
	count += 1.0

print total / count

On average, it's about 1015 (1 in N, N=1000, plus 15 required confirmations) which is a tad worse then they'd make just by collecting the earnings

1020.45654346
1009.71328671
1005.93606394
1034.06093906
1084.23576424
1023.8951049
1018.07992008
1024.26173826

Plus check out the blocks between payments, this would drive someone crazy:

2452
3777
1187
351
177
580
1195
952
2270
1083
781
1378
987
1535
2805
425
1092
1890
210
946
953
409
865
56

EDIT: There might be a bias to the newer node based on the fact that the algorithm is skipping nodes that don't qualify. Whenever it hits the newer node it would automatically qualify. In that case I could just introduce a greater minimum amount of confirmations before a payment to cancel out the bias.  

The code you posted isn't how it actually will function though (in my understanding). If MN X is started now (block 100) and gets paid two blocks later (block 102) - they aren't eligible for another payment until block 1102 (masternode count=1000). However if they just restarted their node to a different address, they are potentially going to get a payment as early as block 117.

[oblox]

whow evan
you are really on it

question:
if we want/need/ are pushing for another 1000 MN's now
that would be 1 Mill coins ! where are people supposed to buy them from !?
there is really very low volume on all exchanges !?
you will not drop the 1000 DRK to a lower number to encourage more MN's at all

That's the point and what should theoretically drive demand.

[HinnomTX]

EDIT: There might be a bias to the newer node based on the fact that the algorithm is skipping nodes that don't qualify. Whenever it hits the newer node it would automatically qualify. In that case I could just introduce a greater minimum amount of confirmations before a payment to cancel out the bias.  

I would borrow a page from the Peercoin playbook, and require 24 hours for 'staking', or 576 confirmations.

[illodin]

they are potentially going to get a payment as early as block 117.

But they might just as well get a payment at block 3000. If you're moving your MN's after each payment you will be at the mercy of the variance. And the 15 confirm requirement (or whatever it will eventually be) will tip the balance towards not moving MN's around.

[g4q34g4qg47ww]

But they might just as well get a payment at block 3000. If you're moving your MN's after each payment you will be at the mercy of the variance.

If I am reading things correctly, then while gaming the system, it shouldn't ever take your MN longer to be paid than the good actors *plus 15 blocks, but would have the chance of it taking significantly shorter(*at 1000MN, you could receive payment 985 blocks sooner.)

[illodin]

But they might just as well get a payment at block 3000. If you're moving your MN's after each payment you will be at the mercy of the variance.

If I am reading things correctly, then while gaming the system, it shouldn't ever take your MN longer to be paid than the good actors *plus 15 blocks, but would have the chance of it taking significantly shorter(*at 1000MN, you could receive payment 985 blocks sooner.)

My understanding is that the first payment will take as many blocks as is needed until it hits the 1 in N chance. This could take 1 or 10000 blocks. After the first payment, it will take N blocks to get the next one.

Each new node has a 1 in N (total number of masternodes) chance of receiving a payment each block

[eduffield]

But they might just as well get a payment at block 3000. If you're moving your MN's after each payment you will be at the mercy of the variance.

If I am reading things correctly, then while gaming the system, it shouldn't ever take your MN longer to be paid than the good actors *plus 15 blocks, but would have the chance of it taking significantly shorter(*at 1000MN, you could receive payment 985 blocks sooner.)

My understanding is that the first payment will take as many blocks as is needed until it hits the 1 in N chance. This could take 1 or 10000 blocks. After the first payment, it will take N blocks to get the next one.

Each new node has a 1 in N (total number of masternodes) chance of receiving a payment each block

Correct. However, I'm going to change it to the first payment requiring confirmations > masternodes*90%. So if there's 1000 masternodes a new node will have to wait 900 confirmations to be entered into the lottery. Then after that it'll be 1 of N. All future payments beyond that will be on a schedule with -10/+10% variance.

Confirmations to start a masternode will be 15. You just can't get paid until much later. It should provide a good mix of security and stability of payments.

[splawik21]

Correct. However, I'm going to change it to the first payment requiring confirmations > masternodes*90%. So if there's 1000 masternodes a new node will have to wait 900 confirmations to be entered into the lottery. Then after that it'll be 1 of N. All future payments beyond that will be on a schedule with -10/+10% variance.

Confirmations to start a masternode will be 15. You just can't get paid until much later. It should provide a good mix of security and stability of payments.

Problem solved.

[g4q34g4qg47ww]

Wow. That's brilliant. Can't wait.

[stealth923]

Correct. However, I'm going to change it to the first payment requiring confirmations > masternodes*90%. So if there's 1000 masternodes a new node will have to wait 900 confirmations to be entered into the lottery. Then after that it'll be 1 of N. All future payments beyond that will be on a schedule with -10/+10% variance.

Confirmations to start a masternode will be 15. You just can't get paid until much later. It should provide a good mix of security and stability of payments.

Problem solved.

We have a winner! Damn I love reading this type of stuff!

[HinnomTX]

But they might just as well get a payment at block 3000. If you're moving your MN's after each payment you will be at the mercy of the variance.

If I am reading things correctly, then while gaming the system, it shouldn't ever take your MN longer to be paid than the good actors *plus 15 blocks, but would have the chance of it taking significantly shorter(*at 1000MN, you could receive payment 985 blocks sooner.)

My understanding is that the first payment will take as many blocks as is needed until it hits the 1 in N chance. This could take 1 or 10000 blocks. After the first payment, it will take N blocks to get the next one.

Each new node has a 1 in N (total number of masternodes) chance of receiving a payment each block

Correct. However, I'm going to change it to the first payment requiring confirmations > masternodes*90%. So if there's 1000 masternodes a new node will have to wait 900 confirmations to be entered into the lottery. Then after that it'll be 1 of N. All future payments beyond that will be on a schedule with -10/+10% variance.

Confirmations to start a masternode will be 15. You just can't get paid until much later. It should provide a good mix of security and stability of payments.

I thought of a similar solution while I was walking my dog just now (coupling masternode count to confirmations to allow payment). Nice work.

[HinnomTX]

Cryptsy had a modest sell wall (about 28 BTC @ 0.00585). That's gone. Thank you seller. Next wall is at 0.006. More masternodes incoming tomorrow.  

[splawik21]

Cryptsy had a modest sell wall (about 28 BTC @ 0.00585). That's gone. Thank you seller. More masternodes incoming tomorrow. 

Haha I saw it couple of minutes ago and thought: someone just read lasts ED`s posts

[drkwarrior]

am knockin em walls down, lol 125drk cryptsy gone in under 2secs,lol