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Author Topic: Bitcoinica - Advanced Bitcoin Trading Platform  (Read 46970 times)
speeder
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September 19, 2011, 06:52:31 PM
 #121

Zhoutong, What's going on with this?

Code:
BTCUSD Stop -0.75 $5.7000 Executed @ 5.3103 1 minute ago
BTCUSD Stop -0.5    $5.4100 Executed @ 5.385 12 minutes ago

None of these transaction are huge deal on a $1 investment, but this should not be happening. Explanations, please.

Probably slippage, but waiting for his answer is better Wink

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September 19, 2011, 06:54:53 PM
 #122

slippage might make sense on the latter, but the former transaction is definitely a bug. Ask was never anywhere near 5.7.

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September 19, 2011, 06:58:21 PM
 #123

look at mtgoxlive.com and see if ask was not near there.

And then remember that bitcoinica has larger spread (ie: earlier, as mtgox jumped from 5 to 5.1, bitcoinica went from 5.05 to 5.35) and momentum

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September 19, 2011, 07:02:28 PM
 #124

look at mtgoxlive.com and see if ask was not near there.

And then remember that bitcoinica has larger spread (ie: earlier, as mtgox jumped from 5 to 5.1, bitcoinica went from 5.05 to 5.35) and momentum

First, market (MtGox) has been nowhere near 5.7 in the last 24 hours. Second, stop orders on Bitcoinica are conducted at Bitcoinica's bid/ask spread, not market values (which should be the case. They aren't an exchange).

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September 19, 2011, 07:03:58 PM
 #125

Is it supposed to take this long to execute a market order?


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September 19, 2011, 07:16:14 PM
 #126

look at mtgoxlive.com and see if ask was not near there.

And then remember that bitcoinica has larger spread (ie: earlier, as mtgox jumped from 5 to 5.1, bitcoinica went from 5.05 to 5.35) and momentum

First, market (MtGox) has been nowhere near 5.7 in the last 24 hours. Second, stop orders on Bitcoinica are conducted at Bitcoinica's bid/ask spread, not market values (which should be the case. They aren't an exchange).

bitcoinica stop orders are triggered by the bid ask, but they are executed at whatever value it can. Even market orders do not execute at current market price (only the leverage is calculated... thus yes, you can get negative trading balance).

And when you complained, and posted that photo of (1 minute ago), that was exactly when I am seeing a spike to 5.6 on mtgox live Wink

A spike triggering a buy run on bitcoinica is not unlikely (in fact, MANY people lsot money this way... NEVER attempt to trade at bitcoinica during a mtgox spike, there will be massive spread and slippage... I always wait for the price to settle).

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September 19, 2011, 07:23:14 PM
 #127

look at mtgoxlive.com and see if ask was not near there.

And then remember that bitcoinica has larger spread (ie: earlier, as mtgox jumped from 5 to 5.1, bitcoinica went from 5.05 to 5.35) and momentum

First, market (MtGox) has been nowhere near 5.7 in the last 24 hours. Second, stop orders on Bitcoinica are conducted at Bitcoinica's bid/ask spread, not market values (which should be the case. They aren't an exchange).

bitcoinica stop orders are triggered by the bid ask, but they are executed at whatever value it can. Even market orders do not execute at current market price (only the leverage is calculated... thus yes, you can get negative trading balance).

And when you complained, and posted that photo of (1 minute ago), that was exactly when I am seeing a spike to 5.6 on mtgox live Wink

A spike triggering a buy run on bitcoinica is not unlikely (in fact, MANY people lsot money this way... NEVER attempt to trade at bitcoinica during a mtgox spike, there will be massive spread and slippage... I always wait for the price to settle).

You must be looking at some other graph, 36 min ago (which is up to date time on that order) was nowhere near 5.6, even. and that's already a 1.7% spread. Last time it was close to 6 was 45 min ago.

I understand what is happening here, but honestly, given the data I'm looking at, I don't trust Bitcoinica's algorithm to adequately conduct trades without some shady practices here.

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September 19, 2011, 07:29:58 PM
 #128

I understand what is happening here, but honestly, given the data I'm looking at, I don't trust Bitcoinica's algorithm to adequately conduct trades without some shady practices here.

Yeah, I'm starting to feel the same way. Having trades not execute when they should, or market trades be active for minutes... kinda scary.

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September 19, 2011, 07:33:58 PM
 #129

They are having a liquidity problem, because people just open their positions but put no limit orders except stop orders.

The market orders remain open because there are no counterpart.

As they get into Tradehill and get more costumers, this will solve by itself.

If you place several market orders, and watch they get completed, you will notice you can bump up or down the prices really fast (for lack of liquidity).

All I can tell you people is: Patience, lots of patience... When leveraged 5 times, remember some "medium-hitters" can become heavy-hitters easily (myself included... when I got into bitcoinica, I did a too big market order, and saw a spike of 20 cents caused by my own order... while at mtgox I would move only 2 or 3 cents... but also looking in mtgox order book, maybe it would moved even more than 20 cents...)

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September 19, 2011, 07:38:49 PM
 #130

They are having a liquidity problem, because people just open their positions but put no limit orders except stop orders.

The market orders remain open because there are no counterpart.

As they get into Tradehill and get more costumers, this will solve by itself.

If you place several market orders, and watch they get completed, you will notice you can bump up or down the prices really fast (for lack of liquidity).

All I can tell you people is: Patience, lots of patience... When leveraged 5 times, remember some "medium-hitters" can become heavy-hitters easily (myself included... when I got into bitcoinica, I did a too big market order, and saw a spike of 20 cents caused by my own order... while at mtgox I would move only 2 or 3 cents... but also looking in mtgox order book, maybe it would moved even more than 20 cents...)

It's a nice guess, but there's no transparency, so who knows? Also, regardless of the "liquidity problem," they're going to have a hard time retaining customers if "slippage" results in 10% swings above and beyond stop-loss contingencies, regardless of the reasons.

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zhoutong
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September 19, 2011, 10:06:52 PM
 #131

Zhoutong, What's going on with this?

Code:
BTCUSD Stop -0.75 $5.7000 Executed @ 5.3103 1 minute ago
BTCUSD Stop -0.5    $5.4100 Executed @ 5.385 12 minutes ago

None of these transaction are huge deal on a $1 investment, and I might understand the last transaction if there was a discrete jump in bid, but this should definitely not be happening on the first order. Explanations, please, both regarding the problem with the first, and the reasons (if no "problem") with the second.

Seriously, if this is a regular possibility, your service just isn't robust enough to trust.

You're placing a Stop order.

Stop order is executed when the market price is below your specified price (for selling). In this case, you are telling the system that you want to set a stop loss at $5.7. When the market rate is only 5.3, it should be executed immediately.

Maybe you want to place limit order instead?

(Some people have asked me why I haven't labeled the execution criteria clearly. Actually I have, you can refer to the placing order dialog for the explanation of various order types. Anyway, a bit Forex trading knowledge is required because this is something new.)

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September 19, 2011, 10:14:53 PM
 #132

You're placing a Stop order.

...

Maybe you want to place limit order instead?


I did the same thing 3 times yesterday.

Kinda why I want spread labels, I tend to get lots of things backwards.

-But still, why would it take minutes for a market order?

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September 19, 2011, 10:16:16 PM
 #133

Is it supposed to take this long to execute a market order?



I apologize for the problem.

Our system is a queue-based system. With these processes by sequence: Ticking -> Matching -> Hedging -> ...

We currently have two queues. But it's possible to have two queues stuck together (especially if there's huge amount of deposits/withdrawals or uncertainties on the connections to Mt. Gox server).

In this case, your prices can still be protected because the price will not update if your orders can't be executed. We assign forced liquidation and hedging as our first priority, matching as second and ticking is the last. So when the queues are stuck, it's more likely to get your order executed rather than have the price updated.

I think this can offer you some protection.

I will investigate this issue in detail by looking at the logs. And I will try to avoid such kind of queue congestion in the future.

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September 19, 2011, 10:19:33 PM
 #134

Okay. I think it may have been in the middle of a spike.  Just kinda scary for it to stay Active after minutes, since there's no telling what the price could be (at least that's how it felt at the time).

Apart from that, thanks for the service.

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September 19, 2011, 10:27:48 PM
 #135

Hi, sent a mail to support@bitcoinica.com yesterday with subject : "1 BTC missing".

No answer so far so in case something's wrong with support, here it is :

-----------------
Hi,

Could you please take a look at my account (gyver). It seems it lost 1
BTC. I canceled a transaction at market price (misclick on SELL with
default 1BTC) just after setting it up. It seems that even though the
transaction is marked canceled, the BTC disappeared.
-----------------

To make it easier to look into it, here is the line for the canceled transaction (GMT +2 here) :

BTCUSD   Market   -1.0   -   Canceled   Sep 18 11:50 PM

I bought 35 BTC, then sold 34 and there's 0 left...

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September 19, 2011, 10:37:45 PM
 #136

Hi, sent a mail to support@bitcoinica.com yesterday with subject : "1 BTC missing".

No answer so far so in case something's wrong with support, here it is :

-----------------
Hi,

Could you please take a look at my account (gyver). It seems it lost 1
BTC. I canceled a transaction at market price (misclick on SELL with
default 1BTC) just after setting it up. It seems that even though the
transaction is marked canceled, the BTC disappeared.
-----------------

To make it easier to look into it, here is the line for the canceled transaction (GMT +2 here) :

BTCUSD   Market   -1.0   -   Canceled   Sep 18 11:50 PM

I bought 35 BTC, then sold 34 and there's 0 left...

Yes, there was something wrong with support. I didn't receive your email. (Now it should be working fine.)

I have looked up your account, and it seems that you really only have 34 BTC in your position. Can you please verify your orders again?

BTW, it's advantageous to you because Bitcoinica implements a net-accounting system. It seems that this is a lost trade, so you should have lost less if your position is 34 instead of 35.

Such mathematical errors shouldn't happen at Bitcoinica. But yesterday's maintenance has caused some database locking issues (duplicated orders, etc). We haven't seen obviously wrong numbers though.

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September 19, 2011, 10:42:53 PM
 #137

Hi, sent a mail to support@bitcoinica.com yesterday with subject : "1 BTC missing".

No answer so far so in case something's wrong with support, here it is :

-----------------
Hi,

Could you please take a look at my account (gyver). It seems it lost 1
BTC. I canceled a transaction at market price (misclick on SELL with
default 1BTC) just after setting it up. It seems that even though the
transaction is marked canceled, the BTC disappeared.
-----------------

To make it easier to look into it, here is the line for the canceled transaction (GMT +2 here) :

BTCUSD   Market   -1.0   -   Canceled   Sep 18 11:50 PM

I bought 35 BTC, then sold 34 and there's 0 left...


Yes, there was something wrong with support. I didn't receive your email. (Now it should be working fine.)

I have looked up your account, and it seems that you really only have 34 BTC in your position. Can you please verify your orders again?

BTW, it's advantageous to you because Bitcoinica implements a net-accounting system. It seems that this is a lost trade, so you should have lost less if your position is 34 instead of 35.

Such mathematical errors shouldn't happen at Bitcoinica. But yesterday's maintenance has caused some database locking issues (duplicated orders, etc). We haven't seen obviously wrong numbers though.


In Bitcoinica here we have a 24/7 system checking for data integrity. Chances are we know immediately when there's something wrong with your orders or positions. The system can fix vast majority of the errors. So far we have processed over 1.1 million web requests, and error rate is less than 0.01%.

I (the system administrator) will receive an email warning when the error rate is above 0.01%, then I will take a look at the problem closely.

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BitMagic
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September 19, 2011, 11:10:20 PM
 #138

You're placing a Stop order.

Well crap, that was supposed to be a limit order.

I agree with a bit more clarification on the orders, especially for your trailing stop. You don't allow a %/$ change, and the description suggests that a trailing stop is going to move with every increase/decrease (sell/buy) of the bid/ask, essentially reducing the difference with each price change.

edit: It's not actually behaving this way, from what I can tell, but led to some confusion.

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September 19, 2011, 11:29:38 PM
 #139

I don't understand the spread estimates/averages on the homepage:

Spread* (฿)   0.13286
Spread* (%)   1.303%

0.13 BTC / 5 BTC is 2.6%, not 1.3%

>>Spread is 1.3% above and below market price



In that case the BTC spread should be 0.066  (not 0.132).

One of the two numbers is WRONG.

Don't day trade.
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September 19, 2011, 11:39:17 PM
 #140

I don't understand the spread estimates/averages on the homepage:

Spread* (฿)   0.13286
Spread* (%)   1.303%

0.13 BTC / 5 BTC is 2.6%, not 1.3%

>>Spread is 1.3% above and below market price



In that case the BTC spread should be 0.066  (not 0.132).

One of the two numbers is WRONG.
I agree. I wasn't suggesting it was transparent, only the calculation is being done that way. It's still like that.

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