[POT]PotCoin - Banking for the Legal Cannabis Industry ✦ ✦ ✦Grow With Us ✦ ✦ ✦

[rdyoung]

I am not sure we are for a decline, long slow or other wise. I have a feeling that some serious funds will flow into POS coins over the next 5-10 years, the legit coins like POT/BLK/BTCD/etc and the ones limping along will benefit from the "rising tide" effect.

I'm curious why you think POS will be on the rise? I have nothing against POS itself but I wonder about the motivations behind turning Potcoin into a POS coin. 2/3 of the entire money supply of Pot is held in just 100 addresses, and 10% of the entire supply is held by a single address. The people that stood to gain the most by turning this coin into POS were most likely the ones pulling the strings.

when people lose interest in a pow coin it becomes very cheap to rent enough hashpower to f#ck with the blockchain... that and the major waste of electricity that would make a lot of mainstream people cringe when looking at btc and cryptos... in the long run I think pos coins will do very well as btc slowly increases in popularity.

People lose interest in a coin because the coin is failing. Bitcoin and to a degree, Litecoin, is constantly increasing in hash rate not decreasing. I think POS is an interesting solution to the electricity problem but it also introduces a lot of other issues. The whole point of POW is to distribute the coins as fairly as possible. And one of the biggest drawbacks to POS is that it encourages a currency monopolization. In POS the more you have the more you make. So when a coin like POT that already has a small group of people in control of the money supply switches to POS it compounds the problem.

Again, the "richlist" that you are quoting is misleading, I also get the feeling that you don't understand supplyVdemand. 25% of POT is locked up 10 address, at least 3 of which are exchanges, that richlist also doesn't account for the 10k other addresses that sites like bittrex have as change addresses. You also need to look at how long its been since coins in the richest addresses have been moved, the longer they sit, the more likely the private key and therefore those coins are lost.

Now let me cover supply/demand and how it melds nicely with the stake rate code in POSv2.0.
If 25% of the coins are essentially lost, IE either in cold storage or lost private keys the stake rate for POT is therefore at least 25% higher than advertised. Thats also 25% or 50million coins that are NOT on the exchanges to hold down the price. The other thing to consider is inflation, before POT transitioned to POSv, the inflation rate at 50/block was 39million coins/year at 25blocks split that in half, but its still an insane inflation rate and it would have taken years to hit the supposed "cap" of 420million coins, this inflation is why ALL pow coins and the hyperinflation POS coins are on a long slow slide to 0 satoshis. Switching to POSv fixes the inflation rate at 5-6%/year, that means that to keep the price steady all you need is to grow demand by that % every year, not hard to do in the long run with the right plan and a strong community.

I think you are confusing and conflating premined POS coins legit and otherwise with coins like POT/RDD/NET/PPC/etc that are either still POW+POS or had an initial POW period for fair distribution and then transitioned to POS.

That is enough for now. Maybe its time I did a write up or 2 about inflation and how its a BAD thing as well as a comparative analysis of POW and POS as crypto mining algos.

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[rdyoung]

I am not sure we are for a decline, long slow or other wise. I have a feeling that some serious funds will flow into POS coins over the next 5-10 years, the legit coins like POT/BLK/BTCD/etc and the ones limping along will benefit from the "rising tide" effect.

I'm curious why you think POS will be on the rise? I have nothing against POS itself but I wonder about the motivations behind turning Potcoin into a POS coin. 2/3 of the entire money supply of Pot is held in just 100 addresses, and 10% of the entire supply is held by a single address. The people that stood to gain the most by turning this coin into POS were most likely the ones pulling the strings.

The rich list is very misleading. A large chunk of coins are held by the exchanges, bitt/polo/cryptsy. It also doesn't matter how many coins the "whales" have so long as they either aren't moving or aren't being used to play with the price. That 10% held by one address, have you looked at when that input was created? Its been sitting for over a year, its likely that the private key is lost and those coins are out of circulation permanently.

What @fonzerellie said about the potential for POS coins, that is a much deeper and hard to explain concept for those that don't have a full grasp on crypto in general.
I believe that a variation of POS is what will take over as the dominant coin, POW is very costly and time intensive to manage and get setup. POS wallets on the otherhand cost as much to run as the power cost for a laptop or lightweight server, there is also virtually no limit to the profits that machine can produce per wallet outside of the total coins in circulation. With POW you have to buy more physical hardware to mine more and you increase your power costs linearly, with POS you simply buy more coins and aside from exchange rate flux, your overhead costs as a % of your earnings drop off as you increase the # of coins your staking.

POS is like a a high interest bank account, POW is like panning for gold, which one do you think is easier to sell to a store owner when trying to get them to take crypto as a payment option?

But we already have bank accounts that offer interest. Why does a currency need to have it built in? A store owner is only going to hold their coins if they can do things like pay their bills with them. Otherwise they'll convert the coins and stick the dollars in their bank account like everybody else already does. They collect interest there too.

Let me ask you this...how are you going to explain to a store owner that when his coins stake he can't use them?

Some things.
1) The blockchain has to move somehow, the 5% interest for staking POT and other POSv coins is the incentive to mint blocks and keep the network moving.
2) You explain to the store owner that they can use those funds in 2.5hours from when it stakes, you also explain that if they keep the wallet locked it won't stake. You also explain that you can use the reservebalance true 0.000 command in the debug console to reserve funds.
3)Let me ask you this? How do you explain to a store owner that they can't access funds received by a CC for up to 30 days after the TX?
4)Are you backed up against a wall and looking to be right no matter what? You might want to back down and realize that your missing a very large piece of the picture here and your not right.

[rdyoung]

because F#CK BANKS

whether store owners keep it or convert it the benefit would be that consumers could spend it... and who knows maybe the average store owner starts keeping 5-10% of the POT that begins going through their stores. Who knows

The ultimate goal for crypto in general is to close the loop. With legal weed its easier than mainstream because while it is a HUGE $ market its relatively small compared to the rest of the economy. The end goal is for the store owner to use it to pay their supplier who then uses it to their suppliers/payroll/etc. This keeps the currency in circulation and reduces the amount actively being sold off for another currency/coin, as long as demand is equal to supply the coins exchange rate stays steady, increase demand and the price increases allowing the coin to go further and improving the economy.

[Chronikka]

I am not sure we are for a decline, long slow or other wise. I have a feeling that some serious funds will flow into POS coins over the next 5-10 years, the legit coins like POT/BLK/BTCD/etc and the ones limping along will benefit from the "rising tide" effect.

I'm curious why you think POS will be on the rise? I have nothing against POS itself but I wonder about the motivations behind turning Potcoin into a POS coin. 2/3 of the entire money supply of Pot is held in just 100 addresses, and 10% of the entire supply is held by a single address. The people that stood to gain the most by turning this coin into POS were most likely the ones pulling the strings.

when people lose interest in a pow coin it becomes very cheap to rent enough hashpower to f#ck with the blockchain... that and the major waste of electricity that would make a lot of mainstream people cringe when looking at btc and cryptos... in the long run I think pos coins will do very well as btc slowly increases in popularity.

People lose interest in a coin because the coin is failing. Bitcoin and to a degree, Litecoin, is constantly increasing in hash rate not decreasing. I think POS is an interesting solution to the electricity problem but it also introduces a lot of other issues. The whole point of POW is to distribute the coins as fairly as possible. And one of the biggest drawbacks to POS is that it encourages a currency monopolization. In POS the more you have the more you make. So when a coin like POT that already has a small group of people in control of the money supply switches to POS it compounds the problem.

Again, the "richlist" that you are quoting is misleading, I also get the feeling that you don't understand supplyVdemand. 25% of POT is locked up 10 address, at least 3 of which are exchanges, that richlist also doesn't account for the 10k other addresses that sites like bittrex have as change addresses. You also need to look at how long its been since coins in the richest addresses have been moved, the longer they sit, the more likely the private key and therefore those coins are lost.

Now let me cover supply/demand and how it melds nicely with the stake rate code in POSv2.0.
If 25% of the coins are essentially lost, IE either in cold storage or lost private keys the stake rate for POT is therefore at least 25% higher than advertised. Thats also 25% or 50million coins that are NOT on the exchanges to hold down the price. The other thing to consider is inflation, before POT transitioned to POSv, the inflation rate at 50/block was 39million coins/year at 25blocks split that in half, but its still an insane inflation rate and it would have taken years to hit the supposed "cap" of 420million coins, this inflation is why ALL pow coins and the hyperinflation POS coins are on a long slow slide to 0 satoshis. Switching to POSv fixes the inflation rate at 5-6%/year, that means that to keep the price steady all you need is to grow demand by that % every year, not hard to do in the long run with the right plan and a strong community.

I think you are confusing and conflating premined POS coins legit and otherwise with coins like POT/RDD/NET/PPC/etc that are either still POW+POS or had an initial POW period for fair distribution and then transitioned to POS.

That is enough for now. Maybe its time I did a write up or 2 about inflation and how its a BAD thing as well as a comparative analysis of POW and POS as crypto mining algos.

I'm not confusing anything, I think you are trying to turn this into a different argument. My question remains the same. How do you explain staking to a merchant who just wants to move his money when he wants to, but can't.

I've been watching POS coins since Peercoin was first launched and I know what its advantages are. It also has some serious drawbacks including being able to "vote" on both sides of a fork. My question is not about POS in general...its about why do you think specifically it will work with Potcoin. Is the rich list misleading? Sure. But to outright dismiss the fact that 2/3 of the entire supply is held by 100 addresses is naive. Yes there is an exchange or two in there, but most of those coins are held by people. Like I said before, the ones who are gaining the most from Potcoin switching to POS are the people who already had the most to begin with. Ending POW only served to further consolidate the money supply.

Also your point about the reduced money supply because of dormant coins is totally moot. So what if some coins are dormant. As soon as the price rises those people who are sitting on their cold wallets could easily dump their coins. In fact that's probably exactly what many of them are waiting for. Unless the coins are destroyed or inaccessible you can't just arbitrarily assume they're no longer part of the supply. If that's the case our market cap is nowhere near the number many web sites like coinmarketcap.com quote

[fonzerrellie]

because F#CK BANKS

whether store owners keep it or convert it the benefit would be that consumers could spend it... and who knows maybe the average store owner starts keeping 5-10% of the POT that begins going through their stores. Who knows

The ultimate goal for crypto in general is to close the loop. With legal weed its easier than mainstream because while it is a HUGE $ market its relatively small compared to the rest of the economy. The end goal is for the store owner to use it to pay their supplier who then uses it to their suppliers/payroll/etc. This keeps the currency in circulation and reduces the amount actively being sold off for another currency/coin, as long as demand is equal to supply the coins exchange rate stays steady, increase demand and the price increases allowing the coin to go further and improving the economy.

Indeed that would be awesome and a solid end goal, dispensaries are just starting to bloom... my town hasn't got a medical one yet but I'm sure in time we will. we do have at least 2 growshops and 3 or 4 pipe/papers shops and I think all are independently owned and operated.

as soon as the android app is available I'll be doing my rounds to my local shops again

 and yes buddy did answer the what do you tell them about staking times and how to use reserve balance etc.

[fonzerrellie]

and who knows with the richlist... which ones were wiped from harddrives, forgotten passwords etc. you could make the same argument about so many coins it's not even funny. will they dump one day? who knows. is it worth endlessly worrying about? no. will the coins be better distributed once/if they get dumped? yes  

[rdyoung]

I'm not confusing anything, I think you are trying to turn this into a different argument. My question remains the same. How do you explain staking to a merchant who just wants to move his money when he wants to, but can't.

I've been watching POS coins since Peercoin was first launched and I know what its advantages are. It also has some serious drawbacks including being able to "vote" on both sides of a fork. My question is not about POS in general...its about why do you think specifically it will work with Potcoin. Is the rich list misleading? Sure. But to outright dismiss the fact that 2/3 of the entire supply is held by 100 addresses is naive. Yes there is an exchange or two in there, but most of those coins are held by people. Like I said before, the ones who are gaining the most from Potcoin switching to POS are the people who already had the most to begin with. Ending POW only served to further consolidate the money supply.

Also your point about the reduced money supply because of dormant coins is totally moot. So what if some coins are dormant. As soon as the price rises those people who are sitting on their cold wallets could easily dump their coins. In fact that's probably exactly what many of them are waiting for. Unless the coins are destroyed or inaccessible you can't just arbitrarily assume they're no longer part of the supply. If that's the case our market cap is nowhere near the number many web sites like coinmarketcap.com quote

You are most definitely conflating and confusing issues. Just because you have been "watching" doesn't mean you have a grasp on what goes on underneath the surface.

I don't have time for an ECON101 class.
With anything in life, the longer something sits locked with no one coming or going, the greater the chance the key has been lost. Can you know that for sure? Of course not because its proving a negative. However, using a little commonsense and knowledge on how coins are typically put into cold storage tells me that the addresses with 1 or more TXs in and NO TXs out are 99% likely to be cold storage. If those coins come out of cold storage to be sold off when the price rises, thats awesome, it puts more coins into the supply to help steady the price. POS in any form is an incentive to HOLD the coins, not let them sit at an exchange ready to be sold off if/when the price is right.

The voting on both sides of a fork? What? Do you understand how POS works? Do you understand that to attack a POS coin requires funds to purchase that coin for the attack, this isn't fiat where you can print a ton of fake currency and attack an economy from that angle. POS just like POW will see small forks on a regular basis, this is one of the reasons why ALL POS coins require upwards of 200 confirmations before you can move the staked coins. These forks get abandoned behind the scenes with no money lost if the code is doing its thing.

Reduced money supply? See the first paragraph and this, the coins that haven't been moved in over a year are likely forgot about by their owner, regardless of that, for now thats fewer coins competing for BTC or USD on the exchanges, thats in favor of demand in the supplyVdemand equation. There are 2 types of "supply", the Money Supply is the total # of coins that have been created, the "supply" in supplyVdemand is the # of coins that can be accessed on DEMAND by those looking to buy, just like any commodity supply that has been sitting on the sidelines will come online if/when the price is right, this is the market being efficient and working properly.

I am curious how you think that ending POW consolidated the supply? Do you think that the people who were mining POT started buying it? Do you think that somehow enough new miners would have come online to outweigh the bigger farms that were mining it? If we can increase demand for POT the inverse to your argument will be true, yes there will always be the large bag holders, just like any coin or currency, crypto or fiat, but there are enough coins on the exchanges that we could easily see 1k people buy 100k each, or 10k people buy 100k each, that would most definitely decentralize the supply, it will also reduce the supply while increasing demand.

Last thing to cover, you never asked why I thought this would work with POT specifically, you asked why I though POS was going to see an influx of new money. I answered this and so did @fonzerellie, but in case you missed it. Its easier to get people to support and buy a coin that pays them for having their wallet unlocked and supporting the network than one that doesn't pay you, there is also the what happens when the earnings per block are low enough that its not worth mining.

[rdyoung]

and who knows with the richlist... which ones were wiped from harddrives, forgotten passwords etc. you could make the same argument about so many coins it's not even funny. will they dump one day? who knows. is it worth endlessly worrying about? no. will the coins be better distributed once/if they get dumped? yes  

Yep, look at BTC as a prime example. Satoshis "millions" haven't moved EVER, we had that HDD thrown out in england somewhere with who knows how many coins on it.
If anyone needs a real life example, my father has lost the keys to 2 sets of addresses. I set him up with mycelium on his phone, first it was the encrypted pdf backup, then when he lost that he got setup again with the HD wallet, he then proceeded to lose that seed. To assume that 100% of a coins supply is accessible and will be dumped is naive at best, ignorant at worst. Of course you have to account for some of it, but as I have posted the longer coins have been sitting, the more likely it is they are lost, and even if they aren't, you can do the math on accessible supply by the coins in the wallets that have shown activity as recent as the last big code update, like a fork to a new algo.

[ny2cafuse]

Are we seriously talking about supply and demand again in this thread.  I don't know if most were around back when the block halving change happened, but we discussed supply and demand ad nauseum.  You can go back to like page 220 or something and read back.  Needless to say, but I'll say it anyway, no one knew what the hell they were talking about when they started rattling off the theory of supply and demand, and Potcoin took a hit back then because of it.

I truly believe supply and demand isn't totally relevant to crypto.  Just like forex trading strategies.  Crypto is it's own beast... and people need to treat it that way.

As far as a store owner goes though, people always make it out to be mining vs banking.  The typical store owner doesn't care about the creation of coins, or interest, or any of the things that enthusiasts care about.  All they care about is getting paid for their goods or services, and being able to use that currency to then go pay for something else.  Merchants now aren't running printing presses in their stores printing out money in the back room.  They aren't calculating interest on their savings... especially MMJ merchants who can't bank.

The only thing the average merchant would really, really care about is blockchain stability and fast transactions.  They want to sell their goods and pay their bills.

And seriously, ResearchYourCoin... again?  Now you're just getting annoying.  I might just go mine CANN now just because you're so insistent that people don't.

-Fuse

[rdyoung]

Are we seriously talking about supply and demand again in this thread.  I don't know if most were around back when the block halving change happened, but we discussed supply and demand ad nauseum.  You can go back to like page 220 or something and read back.  Needless to say, but I'll say it anyway, no one knew what the hell they were talking about when they started rattling off the theory of supply and demand, and Potcoin took a hit back then because of it.

I truly believe supply and demand isn't totally relevant to crypto.  Just like forex trading strategies.  Crypto is it's own beast... and people need to treat it that way.

As far as a store owner goes though, people always make it out to be mining vs banking.  The typical store owner doesn't care about the creation of coins, or interest, or any of the things that enthusiasts care about.  All they care about is getting paid for their goods or services, and being able to use that currency to then go pay for something else.  Merchants now aren't running printing presses in their stores printing out money in the back room.  They aren't calculating interest on their savings... especially MMJ merchants who can't bank.

The only thing the average merchant would really, really care about is blockchain stability and fast transactions.  They want to sell their goods and pay their bills.

And seriously, ResearchYourCoin... again?  Now you're just getting annoying.  I might just go mine CANN now just because you're so insistent that people don't.

-Fuse

Supply/Demand and inflation are 2 things that are underneath the surface of EVERY economy/currency/commodity/etc. To think that inflation doesn't affect you or that you can beat it is digging your own grave. Potcoin took the hit it did not because of a supplyVdemand argument but because of the issues with old devs, lack of direction, whatever was going on, it also kept dropping because supply via POW mining was greater than the demand from fresh money. We have locked in the inflation rate but we still have a lack of demand from new money to give POTcoin the price spike it is capable of, this withstanding, the price has steadied since the transition.

Look at XPY or Hyperstake as a good example to clarify supply/demand. If you bought in either when they launched, your NAV of your wallet is a fraction of what it was, if your lucky you sold your stake over time and hopefully caught some of the bulls, but on the whole they have been sliding into the ether and will continue to do so until the inflation is brought under control. Hyperstakes inflation rate is and will continue to slowdown thanks to their subsidy cap, so if/when demand is ever greater than supply the price will start climbing again or at the least stay steady.

You may have meant to say that its difficult to read a chart for a crypto coin and use the same analysis you would on a dow listed stock or a commodity like LNG or Crude oil.
In this you would be correct, however that analysis fails only for the coins that have virtually no trading data or are only pump and dump scams, you can look at coins like BTC/BLK/DASH/etc, basically any coin with a decent trading volume and enough coins in supply to make a P&D hard for those that might try. The same goes for FX, you can utilize the same trading techniques as for any chart reading but it won't tell you when the a government does something like with CHF a few months ago that send the price either soaring or crashing. The longer term you look however, the more accurate your predictions can be, assuming you know how to read a chart. It amazes me how many people think they understand it but don't have the basics, or think I am a genius when I say its either going to do X or Y.

Of course a merchant only cares about getting paid, but telling someone that they can take POTcoin for purchases AND get paid to have their wallet open and supporting the network helps to sell it.

[rdyoung]

Will someone please permaban @researchyourcoin.

[rdyoung]

Will someone please permaban @researchyourcoin.

I understand your frustrations and concerns about the information I've posted being public in your community thread however, like I mention in the disclaimer;  This information is strictly for the greater good of all coins and unfortunately in crypto we are left to self regulate.  If you feel the information is spam or irrevelent to this thread discussion is entirely of your own opinion, I would suggest you and anyone else who feels the same use the "ignore" button.

Your knowingly spamming this and other threads and your putting the onus on everyone else to ignore you if they don't like it.
Stop spamming this info. Do what I have suggested, start a fresh thread here or on reddit and make a simple and respectful request for people to join in.

If I hit you with a hammer and say sorry after, does that mean hitting you was ok? What if I do it repeatedly even with you saying stop? I said sorry, so its all good? Right?

PS. Your posts keep getting flagged and deleted, all this is doing is hurting your cause.

[Chronikka]

I'm not confusing anything, I think you are trying to turn this into a different argument. My question remains the same. How do you explain staking to a merchant who just wants to move his money when he wants to, but can't.

I've been watching POS coins since Peercoin was first launched and I know what its advantages are. It also has some serious drawbacks including being able to "vote" on both sides of a fork. My question is not about POS in general...its about why do you think specifically it will work with Potcoin. Is the rich list misleading? Sure. But to outright dismiss the fact that 2/3 of the entire supply is held by 100 addresses is naive. Yes there is an exchange or two in there, but most of those coins are held by people. Like I said before, the ones who are gaining the most from Potcoin switching to POS are the people who already had the most to begin with. Ending POW only served to further consolidate the money supply.

Also your point about the reduced money supply because of dormant coins is totally moot. So what if some coins are dormant. As soon as the price rises those people who are sitting on their cold wallets could easily dump their coins. In fact that's probably exactly what many of them are waiting for. Unless the coins are destroyed or inaccessible you can't just arbitrarily assume they're no longer part of the supply. If that's the case our market cap is nowhere near the number many web sites like coinmarketcap.com quote

You are most definitely conflating and confusing issues. Just because you have been "watching" doesn't mean you have a grasp on what goes on underneath the surface.

I don't have time for an ECON101 class.
With anything in life, the longer something sits locked with no one coming or going, the greater the chance the key has been lost. Can you know that for sure? Of course not because its proving a negative. However, using a little commonsense and knowledge on how coins are typically put into cold storage tells me that the addresses with 1 or more TXs in and NO TXs out are 99% likely to be cold storage. If those coins come out of cold storage to be sold off when the price rises, thats awesome, it puts more coins into the supply to help steady the price. POS in any form is an incentive to HOLD the coins, not let them sit at an exchange ready to be sold off if/when the price is right.

What proof do you have that wallets with no spent coins are lost? other than conjecture? Cold storage is not the same as lost. Lots of people have cold storage. Its called a bank account. Also Potcoin is POSv not POS. The V stands for velocity and was designed to encourage spending, not holding. More info here: http://agroff.github.io/posv/

The voting on both sides of a fork? What? Do you understand how POS works? Do you understand that to attack a POS coin requires funds to purchase that coin for the attack, this isn't fiat where you can print a ton of fake currency and attack an economy from that angle. POS just like POW will see small forks on a regular basis, this is one of the reasons why ALL POS coins require upwards of 200 confirmations before you can move the staked coins. These forks get abandoned behind the scenes with no money lost if the code is doing its thing.

In the event of a fork, you can stake coins on both chains. You "vote" for both sides of the fork. That's how POS systems achieve consensus. Each stake is a "vote" for the correct chain. You could in theory stake coins on both branches during a fork. More info here: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/25743/what-are-the-downsides-of-proof-of-stake (Unfortunately I don't have a better link for this one, its only really been discussed in a few forums. There isn't a nice breakdown but its pretty self explanatory)

Reduced money supply? See the first paragraph and this, the coins that haven't been moved in over a year are likely forgot about by their owner, regardless of that, for now thats fewer coins competing for BTC or USD on the exchanges, thats in favor of demand in the supplyVdemand equation. There are 2 types of "supply", the Money Supply is the total # of coins that have been created, the "supply" in supplyVdemand is the # of coins that can be accessed on DEMAND by those looking to buy, just like any commodity supply that has been sitting on the sidelines will come online if/when the price is right, this is the market being efficient and working properly.

I have coins that haven't moved in over a year. Believe me if the price spikes people will notice, and if they forgot their coins they will certainly remember them if the price goes up. I'm just saying you shouldn't assume such a large amount of coins are forgotten or lost. How many people just forget about their money?

I am curious how you think that ending POW consolidated the supply? Do you think that the people who were mining POT started buying it? Do you think that somehow enough new miners would have come online to outweigh the bigger farms that were mining it? If we can increase demand for POT the inverse to your argument will be true, yes there will always be the large bag holders, just like any coin or currency, crypto or fiat, but there are enough coins on the exchanges that we could easily see 1k people buy 100k each, or 10k people buy 100k each, that would most definitely decentralize the supply, it will also reduce the supply while increasing demand.

Take the mining away and the only way to get coins is to buy them with something else, and from somebody else. Its a small barrier for new entry into the system because a new user now has to buy his coins from the holder who is able to replace his sold coins by staking. The large holders stake their coins and make a larger amount than anybody else, simply because they had more to start with. This one I'll admit I'm not sure about, but IMO in this scenario where new users can only buy from current holders that should raise the price, assuming there are new users coming in. But if new users stop coming in, the price will stall, and my guess is that people over time will sell, right back to large holders. I think that's where we are now, market stalled because there is no growth, and a small group of people continuing to collect coins.

Last thing to cover, you never asked why I thought this would work with POT specifically, you asked why I though POS was going to see an influx of new money. I answered this and so did @fonzerellie, but in case you missed it. Its easier to get people to support and buy a coin that pays them for having their wallet unlocked and supporting the network than one that doesn't pay you, there is also the what happens when the earnings per block are low enough that its not worth mining.

I heard both of your responses. The electricity problem fonzerellie mentioned I agree with, see my previous. But over time electricity is continuing to get cheaper and mining is getting more efficient. I don't think in the end it will be a big deal.

Yes its easier to get people to support a coin that earns them interest, but at the end of the day they want a system that works and doesn't cost them much (that doesn't just mean fees. Lost time is lost business too). Which brings me to this...you still have not answered my question, so third time I'm asking:

What do you say to people (specifically merchants) who want to be able to move their coins but can't do it because they're staking? That has always been overlooked in POS systems. Sure its great you get interest but if you actually want to use the currency? no interest for you. Or worse, they do stake the coins and then can't use them when they need them. That will frustrate people into not using this coin. Not everybody, but some. Usability should be more important than gaining interest.

[ny2cafuse]

Supply/Demand and inflation are 2 things that are underneath the surface of EVERY economy/currency/commodity/etc. To think that inflation doesn't affect you or that you can beat it is digging your own grave. Potcoin took the hit it did not because of a supplyVdemand argument but because of the issues with old devs, lack of direction, whatever was going on, it also kept dropping because supply via POW mining was greater than the demand from fresh money. We have locked in the inflation rate but we still have a lack of demand from new money to give POTcoin the price spike it is capable of, this withstanding, the price has steadied since the transition.

The whole change was because of supply and demand.  That was the entire argument, and the driving force behind this coin's midlife failure(to date).  They believed too many coins were being created, and that's why the price was down.  They didn't address the fact that they had no demand.  So they reduced supply by accelerating halving.  Then they realized that was a stupid idea when the price went nowhere, and they went silent.  I'll say it now like I said then.  Whether you have a million coins or a billion, if you don't have a use for it, it's going nowhere.  IMO, demand is relevant, supply isn't.  In the end you're just trading x units for y goods.  No one cares if that's 10, 100, 1000, or 10,000 units, as long as they can buy something with it.

Look at XPY or Hyperstake as a good example to clarify supply/demand. If you bought in either when they launched, your NAV of your wallet is a fraction of what it was, if your lucky you sold your stake over time and hopefully caught some of the bulls, but on the whole they have been sliding into the ether and will continue to do so until the inflation is brought under control. Hyperstakes inflation rate is and will continue to slowdown thanks to their subsidy cap, so if/when demand is ever greater than supply the price will start climbing again or at the least stay steady.

I haven't followed either, so I wouldn't know about their dynamics.  Again though, inflation, supply, etc... it's all irrelevant without demand.  And I know we're pretty much arguing the same thing here, but I'm still in the mindset that you could probably make the max supply infinite and it wouldn't matter.  25k POT then is still worth 25k POT now.

You may have meant to say that its difficult to read a chart for a crypto coin and use the same analysis you would on a dow listed stock or a commodity like LNG or Crude oil.
In this you would be correct, however that analysis fails only for the coins that have virtually no trading data or are only pump and dump scams, you can look at coins like BTC/BLK/DASH/etc, basically any coin with a decent trading volume and enough coins in supply to make a P&D hard for those that might try. The same goes for FX, you can utilize the same trading techniques as for any chart reading but it won't tell you when the a government does something like with CHF a few months ago that send the price either soaring or crashing. The longer term you look however, the more accurate your predictions can be, assuming you know how to read a chart. It amazes me how many people think they understand it but don't have the basics, or think I am a genius when I say its either going to do X or Y.

We're on the same page on this.  Reading a chart is reading a chart.  A P&D is as clear to see as the nose on my face.  But people come around all the time saying their going to apply real world trading algorithms to daily trading.  And then a dev goes silent for two months.  Or a whale decides he's got 10BTC he wants to spend on something silly.  Crypto is too dynamic to predict.  The only true strategy to winning here is to play the P&Ds or HODL legitimate coins.

Of course a merchant only cares about getting paid, but telling someone that they can take POTcoin for purchases AND get paid to have their wallet open and supporting the network helps to sell it.

This is the main point I want to challenge.  Merchants aren't going to leave the coins in their wallets.  You're talking a decade down the road when it's hopefully mainstream and the economy is full circle.  Right now, merchants, with no real adoption, are going to take POT and immediately turn it into BTC.  With the history of the coin, would you seriously risk not cashing out when you're trying to maintain a balanced business ledger?  With POS, and POW too, a single person(with confirmation nodes) could keep the chain running.  I kept KDC running on POW for a few months by myself.  This becomes more of a debate on fundamental crypto philosophy- support the chain or support yourself.  Merchants will most likely chose the later.

What do you say to people (specifically merchants) who want to be able to move their coins but can't do it because they're staking? That has always been overlooked in POS systems. Sure its great you get interest but if you actually want to use the currency? no interest for you. Or worse, they do stake the coins and then can't use them when they need them. That will frustrate people into not using this coin. Not everybody, but some. Usability should be more important than gaining interest.

This is the most on-point comment and question yet.  Merchants will want to move the coins, not leave them sitting.

-Fuse

[fartbags]

PotCoin was trying to do this:
http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/22/green-bits-launches-point-of-sale-service-for-cannabis-shops/

The idea won 2nd place at tech diruptor SF 2015

[Chronikka]

I haven't followed either, so I wouldn't know about their dynamics.  Again though, inflation, supply, etc... it's all irrelevant without demand.  And I know we're pretty much arguing the same thing here, but I'm still in the mindset that you could probably make the max supply infinite and it wouldn't matter.  25k POT then is still worth 25k POT now.

Agree 100% with this. The talk about supply and demand is meaningless right now. There is no demand, the only people buying the coin are market speculators.

[rdyoung]

And this is why I don't converse much on here or reddit.

The simple fact that 2 people here think that supply is irrelevant and demand is everything while also saying that supply/demand doesn't apply to crypto is astounding. It highlights a clear lack of knowledge and grasp of market dynamics that control stocks/bonds and even entire economies, its the not the only factor to analyze and account for but it and its cousin inflation are the 2 major factors in what any market will do over the long term.

If we want to get back to people asking questions about how POS works, great, but I am bowing out of this ridiculous conversation before I have an aneurysm from the insanity.

[ny2cafuse]

And this is why I don't converse much on here or reddit.

The simple fact that 2 people here think that supply is irrelevant and demand is everything while also saying that supply/demand doesn't apply to crypto is astounding. It highlights a clear lack of knowledge and grasp of market dynamics that control stocks/bonds and even entire economies, its the not the only factor to analyze and account for but it and its cousin inflation are the 2 major factors in what any market will do over the long term.

If we want to get back to people asking questions about how POS works, great, but I am bowing out of this ridiculous conversation before I have an aneurysm from the insanity.

At this point supply is irrelevant mate.  There is no clear use for POT right now aside from a few niche merchants and trading.  POT is just a speculation coin atm.  This is the same argument had months ago with the previous devs/community.  Create the "demand" and then we can talk about supply/inflation issues.

I agree that traditional market dynamics will play out over the long term.  But there has to be long term... there still isn't even a short term.  So getting all worked up about the finite details of the POT economic system at this point in time is kind of silly, mate.

-Fuse

[fartbags]

And this is why I don't converse much on here or reddit.

The simple fact that 2 people here think that supply is irrelevant and demand is everything while also saying that supply/demand doesn't apply to crypto is astounding. It highlights a clear lack of knowledge and grasp of market dynamics that control stocks/bonds and even entire economies, its the not the only factor to analyze and account for but it and its cousin inflation are the 2 major factors in what any market will do over the long term.

If we want to get back to people asking questions about how POS works, great, but I am bowing out of this ridiculous conversation before I have an aneurysm from the insanity.

At this point supply is irrelevant mate.  There is no clear use for POT right now aside from a few niche merchants and trading.  POT is just a speculation coin atm.  This is the same argument had months ago with the previous devs/community.  Create the "demand" and then we can talk about supply/inflation issues.

I agree that traditional market dynamics will play out over the long term.  But there has to be long term... there still isn't even a short term.  So getting all worked up about the finite details of the POT economic system at this point in time is kind of silly, mate.

-Fuse

Here is a clear use case:
http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/22/green-bits-launches-point-of-sale-service-for-cannabis-shops/


I'm surprised there is no PotCoin store yet. There was so much popularity around PotCoin yet no one is interested in starting a business that grows marijuana, sells marijuana exclusively for PotCoin.

Other than snoop dogg, PotCoin is probably the biggest brand. It could become the budweiser of pot.



We must all be too high to figure out all the rules to grow and sell marijuana.

[CartmanSPC]

What do you say to people (specifically merchants) who want to be able to move their coins but can't do it because they're staking? That has always been overlooked in POS systems. Sure its great you get interest but if you actually want to use the currency? no interest for you. Or worse, they do stake the coins and then can't use them when they need them. That will frustrate people into not using this coin. Not everybody, but some. Usability should be more important than gaining interest.

This is the most on-point comment and question yet.  Merchants will want to move the coins, not leave them sitting.

Perhaps we should make the default on an unlocked POS wallet to not stake? We could make it so that in order to stake you have to enable it in addition to unlocking for staking.