[staff] xandry: may I ask an explanation? Response received!

[mdayonliner]

Time for the topic to be locked. Response from xandry

Thursday, June 21, 2018 @14:19 BST: For obvious reason the archive.is of 1^st to 44^th comment
An update reading is here please...
Another update reading

The moderator xandry gives merit for helping in moderating the forum. Russian section of the forum is very big sizes. And we promptly report the posts or threads violate the forum rules. For that sometimes he get merit...

In Russian section merit awarding for helping the mod is not ok looking in my opinion. Especially when it is coming from a staff and a possible merit source (my wild guess  ). Have a look: #, # etc.

Do you think this is a right way to award merit? This is not helping these users to improve their posting skills in the forum. I am pretty sure people will have different views however I am interested to hear it. I would appreciate your input in it.

Merit has been introduced to encourage high quality posting behavior. This explains everything...

I'm hoping that this system will increase post quality by:
 - Forcing people to post high-quality stuff in order to rank up. If you just post garbage, you will never get even 1 merit point, and you will therefore never be able to put links in your signature, etc.
 - Highlighting good posts with the "Merited by" line.

While we will not be directly moderating this, I encourage people to give merit to posts that are objectively high-quality, not just posts that you agree with.

I am calling out xandry for an explanation. xandry, may I ask an explanation? As a member of the forum I/we have the right to learn a valid point of view since the whole thing is not ok looking.

Thank you xandry in advance.

PS: The whole thing popped in my mind when I done creating this topic: List of members achieved 0 to 100+ merits.
Closely consider looking the isQuestionable? column. The column is no longer available.

Title changed: Merit for helping on moderating the forum (?!) Highlighting staff: xandry to calling out [staff] xandry for an explanation
Title again changed to [staff] xandry: may I ask an explanation? suggestion from AverageGlabella
30th June 2018: Body contents edited a bit

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[coinlocket$]

Merit is not a good moderating reward in my opinion cause people can make 500 alts and boost reports on the main account

[LoyceMobile]

I noticed the exact same post today. I've seen staff and non staff give merit for many posts that report abuse, but xandry's merit history shows that most of the posts he merited have been deleted.
That doesn't highlight good posts, which is what the merit system is supposed to do.

[Cobalt9317]

There's likely no easy way to prove that you haven't been abusing the merit system. But, it doesn't matter too much if it's being abused on a small scale. It will likely only become a problem if a merit source was abusing the system and there's ways to tell whether they are abusing it.

In this case this is bad according to Welsh input on my merit system flaw.

If the moderator is a merit source an action is required for this sort of phenomenon.

[npredtorch]

So let's say there is a spam topic, a person who would want a merit should report by clicking on the "Report to Moderator" button and at the same time requires to post a message that he/she have already reported the topic to the moderator. After the mod have checked the validity of the report, he will award the person with a merit (in that report post) and deletes the entire topic.

Is this correct?

#EDIT
If yes, I agree with coinlocket$ that it can be abused.
Abused in a way that anyone can make an alt account to post a nonsense topic and followed up with a report post from his/her main account to gain an easy merit.

[mdayonliner]

I noticed the exact same post today. I've seen staff and non staff give merit for many posts that report abuse, but xandry's merit history shows that most of the posts he merited have been deleted.
That doesn't highlight good posts, which is what the merit system is supposed to do.

In this case this is bad according to Welsh input on my merit system flaw.

If the moderator is a merit source an action is required for this sort of phenomenon.

P.S. Statistics of my reports are available to administrators

mdayonliner, do you have any more questions?

Maybe you don't trust the forum administrator which is appointed xandry staff of the Russian section of the forum?

The user Alex_Sr clearly indicating that the merits were awarded to help the staff (xandry) on moderating the Russian section.
My guess is they are reporting the posts and if the report comes out good then they are getting one merit for each report.

update:

Is this correct?

Yes, it's making sense perfectly.

Merit is not a good moderating reward in my opinion cause people can make 500 alts and boost reports on the main account

I agree with this logic. People can easily rank up their main account using this trick.

[coolcoinz]

I remember reading a thread about xandry's way of meriting some time ago and yes he was giving merit to people who help him with the spam in the russian section. IMO this is a double edged sword because what is stopping you from spamming with one account and reporting it with another in hope that xandry will see it and reward you? If he can't handle the spam himself, he should share the position with another staff member.

[mdayonliner]

I remember reading a thread about xandry's way of meriting some time ago and yes he was giving merit to people who help him with the spam in the russian section. IMO this is a double edged sword because what is stopping you from spamming with one account and reporting it with another in hope that xandry will see it and reward you? If he can't handle the spam himself, he should share the position with another staff member.

I am sure you are talking about commenting on this topic. That discussion never exposed. It finished at one post after your comment on that section. No one ever noticed that I guess since then.

[Vod]

Merit is not a good moderating reward in my opinion cause people can make 500 alts and boost reports on the main account

I agree with this logic. People can easily rank up their main account using this trick.

You two don't understand how the merit system works.  500 alts would have 0 sMerit to give away.  :/

[eddie13]

Merit is not a good moderating reward in my opinion cause people can make 500 alts and boost reports on the main account

I agree with this logic. People can easily rank up their main account using this trick.

You two don't understand how the merit system works.  500 alts would have 0 sMerit to give away.  :/

I think he means using alts to make things to report to get merit.. Like make a shitpost and then report your own post..


I don't see a problem with him giving merit this way as long as you trust him not to be selling merit.. You aren't accusing him of that are you?


As far as the 500 alts scheme.. Don't you think xandry would catch on to that and stop it?


OP, you got a heck of a good chunk of your merit by helping mods and the forum police didn't you?

[Welsh]

I have mixed feelings on this. Xandry likely has innocent intentions, but doesn't realize that this could very easily be abused, and could result in more spam/infringing posts. I would like to think they would stop rewarding merits if they suspected this to be the case. I don't think Xandry should face punishment for this, nor be removed as a merit source. I think they should definitely stop awarding merits for reports, because of the likelihood of abuse especially now that it's more public than it was before.  

If they aren't a merit source, and was awarding members with sMerit they'vereceived himself through their posts I don't think there would be too much of a problem, because at the end of the day it's up to the person what they perceive worthy of merit. However, if they are a merit source which looks likely then it could quickly become a problem as merit sources have more merits to send out, and are 'responsible' for rewarding high quality posts. Looking at the merit sent in seems that a few people have caught on to it, and it's the same users that keep popping up. I'm not sure if they've always reported, but at a external point of view looks like they've found an easy way to earn merit.

It's a strange one, because he's sending the merit to posts that have since been deleted which means that those users would of had to post in that thread before it was deleted. Makes me wonder on how they are reporting whether they are using the report to moderator button or simply just posting in the thread with instructions to the OP on what they have done wrong etc.

All of the above is on assumption, and viewing it from an external point of view. It would be interesting to see what Xandry has to say about it. I don't think we should be too quick to judge. I think the only problem I see is:
1. Xandry is a merit source
2. How easy it is to abuse.

@OP
You know how to plug your threads don't you?

[coinlocket$]

~
You two don't understand how the merit system works.  500 alts would have 0 sMerit to give away.  :/

I Know....

If I have not misunderstood in the Russian section, if I report a spammer with the "report to moderator" I have a chance to have a reward in Merit.
From here, if I create 500 alts to spam and report them with my main account, I will increase my chances of having Merit.


@eddie13, 500 is a symbolic number can be even 1, (but more is better for the newbie spam protection timer).

I like this idea because I personaly report many messagges but it easy exploitable.
I have no doubt about the goodness of the gesture of mod but I know the human tendency to turn the rules for a personal profit.

[mdayonliner]

You two don't understand how the merit system works.  500 alts would have 0 sMerit to give away.  :/

oho! We all are dumb to some extent

These people are earning merits by reporting shit posts. Let's say this is my main account. The rule is I will get 1 merit to report one shit post. I can create one ALT and can make 10 shit posts from that alt. Now, from my main account, I report those 10 shit posts and I am getting 10 merits in my main account for those 10 reports  

Wait, I guess I realize now, what I did not understand...
I do not need 500 ALTs. May be 10 alts and create 100 shit posts from those 10 alts. From my main account keep reporting one after another. I will have 1000 merits which is enough for becoming a Legendary member.  

You don't mind big smiles vod, do you?  

PS: I need to be a bit careful on reporting though so that the mod do not get my trick.

Update:

OP, you got a heck of a good chunk of your merit by helping mods and the forum police didn't you?

Yes, good chunk but not most of them. Don't you think I am working really hard to earn them?

You aren't accusing him of that are you?

No, I am not accusing him but it's not the right way. It does not satisfy the principal of awarding merit IMO and you can see others have the same opinion.

All of the above is on assumption, and viewing it from an external point of view. It would be interesting to see what Xandry has to say about it. I don't think we should be too quick to judge. I think the only problem I see is:
1. Xandry is a merit source
2. How easy it is to abuse.

I do think the same. We need to hear Xandry's opinion. May be he has this innocent idea to help the community but it is an abuse from outside.

@OP
You know how to plug your threads don't you?

Is that a compliment?  

[digaran]

It is OK if a mod and a merit source is meriting known and good forum members, however it is not OK to merit every random member for reporting and helping him.

[Tyrantt]

~
You two don't understand how the merit system works.  500 alts would have 0 sMerit to give away.  :/

If I have not misunderstood in the Russian section, if I report a spammer with the "report to moderator" I have a chance to have a reward in Merit.
From here, if I create 500 alts to spam and report them with my main account, I will increase my chances of having Merit.

I like this idea because I personaly report many messagges but it easy exploitable.
I have no doubt about the goodness of the gesture of mod but I know the human tendency to turn the rules for a personal profit.

If this idea came to practise, mods would be buried in reports. Since you can go to bounty section or bitcoin discussion and just click away, pretty much, every other post and basically get enough merit for a few ranks. 

Also, this would allow farming of alts again, same method. Sooo.... Nope, not a good idea.

[Welsh]

If this idea came to practise, mods would be buried in reports. Since you can go to bounty section or bitcoin discussion and just click away, pretty much, every other post and basically get enough merit for a few ranks.  

Also, this would allow farming of alts again, same method. Sooo.... Nope, not a good idea.

I'm never against people getting rewarded for their efforts, but reporting is something which is easily abused if there's gain associated with it, and it seems like Xandry may have been rewarding per report which is even worse due to the sheer amount that could be reported for merit. Maybe there is a way to reward those who report, but merit is not one of them, and anything else that I can think of would quickly lead to abuse at least the way it is users are reporting for the right reasons.

[esmanthra]

As I am the one who recieves merits from xandry, I'll try to clarify some points.
For a start - let him speak for himself (since he answered in a thread in Russian section devoted to similar question):

[...] Indeed, when merit system appeared, I got the opportunity to encourage users for help in moderation, which was frankly lacking. (Note: In Russian section.) At first I tried to apply it to "service" threads (about bans, ranks, forum rules, etc.), but sometimes I haven't got enough time to watch if something useful in these topics appeared, so when I click on a link in report and notice that person not only sent a report, but also, for example, explained to author of violating post what they did wrong (thereby I don't need to explain it myself), I endeavor to gratitude them in a merit form. By the way, it turned out, that "violators" often take such user warnings into consideration and move their topics to the correct sections or delete their posts.
Regarding the possibility of obtaining merits this way. Here're some situations when I don't give them:
1. You were wrong and I do not see any violations.
2. You wrote a message with an explanation, but I trivially did not read it.
3. You didn't reach even a Jr. Member rank "naturally".
3. You collected too much merit in the last 30 days, try again later. This is not my personal limitation - it's set by the forum.

Therefore, we have some kind of game of chances here.

That is to say:

1. He doesn't give merits for reports themselves. Currently you can receive merits only if you report some violation and simultaneously leave a message for the author of violating post/topic explaining what was wrong and how to avoid alike situations in future. These messages receive merits since they're considered as helpful enough. Next the topic/post is deleted, so you can see that "Deleted/Off-limits/Ignored" thing on the stats page.

2. He doesn't give merits for every report. See the clarification about chances above.

3. Also trust me you don't need to create alts and post nonsense in order to report something and obtain merits in Russian-section: we've got enough "actual" violators there. In fact in some subsections (like Newcomers or Bitcoin news) dozens of new topics are being created daily, and every second topic breakes the rules. People just don't care about reading them - all they think about is their neverending bounty-reports.

I hope this would help to make the situation a little bit clearer.

In addition: For some of us the so-called "help in moderation" isn't limited to "what's-wrong-explanations". For instance, my reports mostly aren't followed by any messages and don't imply any rewards (you can look at my history here). The same applies to replies in "service"-topics mentioned by xandry.

[digaran]

I'd say that he is either seriously farming merits and accounts or is lazy. now that people know about this issue he should change his meriting tactics and we should also move on. now he knows that we're on to him. please do not continue doing this.

[Jet Cash]

If a merit source doesn't have the time, or the inclination, to look for posts to award with merits, then he shouldn't be a merit source in my opinion.

[hilariousetc]

You don't even know what he's been giving it out for yet and if in fact he has been doing it as all you're going on is the post of one person, but how would this be any different than people getting merit for their posts/threads in Meta or Reputation for helping out and reporting/busting spambots, farmers and merit traders etc? I don't think people should be getting merit for every report or something, but I don't see a problem with those who help out by making posts that help moderation etc.

[Jet Cash]

My post was triggered by this comment by him.

At first I tried to apply it to "service" threads (about bans, ranks, forum rules, etc.), but sometimes I haven't got enough time to watch if something useful in these topics appeared

It may have been taken out of context, so as Hilarious said, perhaps we should wait for clarification.

[Alex_Sr]

The user Alex_Sr clearly indicating that the merits were awarded to help the staff (xandry) on moderating the Russian section.
My guess is they are reporting the posts and if the report comes out good then they are getting one merit for each report.

If you follow your logic - there should be 3924 merit points. In reality I see 80 merit from xandry.
Don't you think you're wrong somewhere again?

Pyccкий (Russian)
Moderators: LZ, xandry, Xal0lex
3 246 946 Posts
78016 Topics

Nederlands (Dutch)
Moderators: Mitchell, MindlessElectron
40 903 Posts
4612 Topics

Any other questions?

[mdayonliner]

If you follow your logic - there should be 3924 merit points. In reality I see 80 merit from xandry.

@Alex_Sr I or I guess we have nothing to do with you. The logic we are only assuming, we are not saying it's correct. We actually do not know what is going on.

You don't even know what he's been giving it out for yet and if in fact he has been doing it as all you're going on is the post of one person, but how would this be any different than people getting merit for their posts/threads in Meta or Reputation for helping out and reporting/busting spambots, farmers and merit traders etc? I don't think people should be getting merit for every report or something, but I don't see a problem with those who help out by making posts that help moderation etc.

- I already sent xandry a message last night before I crash the bed, seems like he still did not see it (may be) yet.

Click here if unable to see image

[Welsh]

Yeah, I would like hear off Xandry if possible as I don't want anything to be lost in translation as well as have any bias. Although, I do appreciate the effort of translating the post, and linking that thread.

I don't think people should be getting merit for every report or something, but I don't see a problem with those who help out by making posts that help moderation etc.

Like I said I've got mixed feelings about it, although merit wasn't introduced for the purpose of offering a reward for reports, and as we've all mentioned before how it's easily abused. I've not got a problem with rewarding people who make the effort to report at it's very definition. It's the possibilities of users making alternate accounts, and posting nonsense just to report it which not only is abuse, but leads to more spam, and workload for the legitimate reporters as well as staff members.

I'm not accusing anyone of doing this so far, and as far as I can tell it's had a positive impact of a few members judging by the amount that they've reported, and I'm sure the possibility of receiving merit as contributed a large amount to that. Now that's public though there by me a few opportunistic individuals that abuse it.

I'm going to reiterate my point that Xandry should not be punished or removed as a merit source as a result of this, but should probably consider stopping it or at the very least keep a eye out for any abuse.

As you've mentioned yourself reporting is a pretty thankless job, and can sometimes be extremely tedious, and time consuming. But, I don't think I agree that merit is the way to go about it. Plus, it's not too different to the topics that certain members have posted in the Meta section, and I think I've noticed a few members doing it in hopes of earning merit rather than just simply reporting the post.

I don't think adding some sort of criteria would be of benefit either such as x amount of reports gets you 1 merit as fundamentally that's not what the merit system was implemented for. Merit was introduced to encourage users to post high quality content by rewarding them with merit, and putting certain restrictions on users who haven't hit certain thresholds. This is mainly why a merit source dishing out merits for reports doesn't quite sit right. A merit source is appointed because of their capabilities to pick out good quality posts. Offering merit points for reports isn't encouraging quality content makers, but those who report. Yeah, I know it more reports is a good thing, and the people who regularly report should probably be noticed, and rewarding, but the merit system isn't really for that. I've received a few messages off moderators, and an admin in the past thanking me for reporting, and I'm sure that's enough of encourage for most users.

Anyway, I'll stop banging on about this. I don't think it's a major issue until the potential abuse kicks in, but then again I think Xandry is intelligent enough to determine what's abuse, and what isn't so it's probably a non issue.

If you follow your logic - there should be 3924 merit points. In reality I see 80 merit from xandry.
Don't you think you're wrong somewhere again?

It's probably not a problem currently. Although, I would be worried that the account farmers would of noticed this, and start reporting in a way to rank up. 80 merits is probably worth a lot to them. I'm guessing this is your report stats, nice one!

The only saving grace I think we have is this is in a local board, and will limit the amount of abuse.

[mdayonliner]

@Welsh yes, he is the one who will have better explanation.

Did anyone PMed xandry. Seems like he still has not seen my message. I am not sure If I should PM him again or not?

[MainIbem]

Why are people attacking the merit system left, right and center? It shows that majority are not concerned about the quality of the forum but just quantity.

[Jet Cash]

Why are people attacking the merit system left, right and center? It shows that majority are not concerned about the quality of the forum but just quantity.

Because they are too lazy to make decent posts, and they think that the members who spent years building Bitcoin Talk owe them a living.

[krishnaverma]

Why are people attacking the merit system left, right and center? It shows that majority are not concerned about the quality of the forum but just quantity.

Because the majority will not be able to get merits because of bad post quality.

You can see the same behavior everywhere. For instance, when students do not get good marks in exams, they will start blaming the subject or the teacher. In reality, it is those students who are not making good effort. Same applies here.

[barsharkol12]

merits plays a big role now in the system. but others are still shit posters. also the aspect that other users which are a good quality posers still no merits given upon them.

[kadan500]

I think the greatest role of this system is to allow serious people to grow. In the long run, it encourages people to do more useful things, make suggestions, etc. The main thing is discovery. For the management forum, it is based on the formulation and implementation of rules, so that people consciously abide by. This will keep the forum alive.

[mdayonliner]

Why are people attacking the merit system left, right and center? It shows that majority are not concerned about the quality of the forum but just quantity.

Because they are too lazy to make decent posts, and they think that the members who spent years building Bitcoin Talk owe them a living.

Left, right, front, back, bottom, above. Once they go inside then they can attack from the center 

Sir () Jet Cash left me nothing to add to answer you.

[ToTheMoon_XOM9IK]

I agree with you. Still waters run deep. Dirty game 

[ToTheMoon_XOM9IK]

Infographics:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3406681.msg39296302#msg39296302

Our question was designed to elicit a response. 

[Sova_tmb]

Moderator himself decide who to give merit , if he so decide this his right.

[Harlot]

If fellow members of the forum are helping xandry to moderate the forum then this members are technically helping the moderator clean up the spam and shitpost of the forum, so I do think giving them merits for their help on cleaning up trash posts still is counted on being given merits. I know it may look like I am stretching their definition but if xandry is giving it to people who are helping him then I don't see anything wrong with it, even if their posts aren't of high quality they are still contributing to the forum elsewhere.

[nakamura12]

Xandry must have a reason why he reward merit per report as long as it is put in good use rather than abusing it. One thing, xandry may PM theymos if he can award merit by helping moderating the forum, as far as I know they have their own reasons why they do it. I respect mdayonliner but we can't judge people if we don't know the story behind it.

[mdayonliner]

Xandry must have a reason why he reward merit per report as long as it is put in good use rather than abusing it. One thing, xandry may PM theymos if he can award merit by helping moderating the forum, as far as I know they have their own reasons why they do it. I respect mdayonliner but we can't judge people if we don't know the story behind it.

With all due respect to Xandry, I would also like to know the reasons if it's explainable. I believe the community needs to see transparency.

I am not sure why xandry is so quit here? I/we can expect at-least a response out of courtesy, can't we? This is disrespectful attitude from xandry, sorry to say.

Anyway here is something I would like to bring in attention. An unhappy member PMed me with his/her complain against the activities of xandry. The original message was edited back and forth with the PM sender to keep his/her identity hidden. Hope xandry notice all these posts and give us some feedback.

PS: If any mod (except xandry and any other Russian mods) wants to see the original conversation then I have the permission from the PM sender to expose it to their (mods) PM only.

Hello!
I saw your thread and I have to say thank you ! Because we have very bad situation on our Russian forum. By the way sorry for my English this is not my native language.
As you know we have a lot of people that got merit just for helping moderator
Look to these guys
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=1951496
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=1480135
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=1762404
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=1479555
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=2101883
These guys 3 of them got 10 merits and will be member only for reporting! They didn't wrote any post or something.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=2043593
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=1901621
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=2101883
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=1480135
They have 10 merits only for repost
~sniped~sniped~¹
I saw statistic on some thread and it is :
230 мepитoв зa дeлитeд 230/290 = 80%
35 мepитoв - зa пocты c нaпpaвлeниeм (в Paзнoe и тп) = 13%
3 мepитa - зa нoды = 1.1%
2 мepитa - дoвepитeльный тpeйдинг = 0.7%
3 мepитa - зa нoвыe тeмы =1.1%
1 мepит зa Битcлep =0.4%
4 мepит - yшлo в aнгл. =1.4%
4 мepит - тeмa o клoнax = 1.4%

Or russian local we have 93% merits for report and offtop and just 1,1%(!!!!) for new threads!!!
93% merits 270 merits from  290 gave moders for report!!! This is insane.

I have the same situation. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=xxx.msgxxx#msgxxx¹
~sniped~sniped~¹
Because I don't think that this is right when people became Member or even Full member for report. Yes they help moderator but not forum. Soon no one will create any thread or useful posts. I even saw like for example on xxx¹ pages on some thread people wrote "offtop" or something. No one want to create something, just reporting.
Sorry for my English anyway and I hope I didn't bothering you.

¹_{Hidden to keep privacy of the PM sender.}

PS again: I have changed to topic title Merit for helping on moderating the forum (?!) to Merit for helping on moderating the forum (?!) Highlighting staff: xandry to get attention from xandry. Let's hope it works.

A little update:

Click here if unable to see image

[esmanthra]

I have changed to topic title [...] to get attention from xandry. Let's hope it works

In fact I can't understand why do you expect to see any reaction by changing thread titles, bumping and so on, since I doubt that xandry even knows about this thread's existence.
I doubt that he spents any time browsing Meta to see it.
I doubt that he reads Russian topics where people discussed it to be informed.
I even doubt that he saw your private message (since he has got so many of them that they lie in his box for months accumulating - for example, I sent him some message in february, but recieved his reply only a few days ago).

As he wrote earlier he's too busy even to read the "service" threads. So I assume you'd better be patient if you really want him to response.

[mdayonliner]

You think I am lacking common sense here?

In fact I can't understand why do you expect to see any reaction by changing thread titles, bumping and so on, since I doubt that xandry even knows about this thread's existence.

This is the exact reason I am doing all these, to get his attention.

I doubt that he spents any time browsing Meta to see it.

- Do not need to know if he does or does not. All I care his response either seeing it in meta or anyone inform him or he search using his username to see his mentions.

I doubt that he reads Russian topics where people discussed it to be informed.

- Again I do not care, however I do believe him to spend some time on seeing what community is doing here and there. He is a staff for a reason especially when he has a job to look after his local board.
 

I even doubt that he saw your private message (since he has got so many of them that they lie in his box for months accumulating - for example, I send him some message in february, but recieved his reply only a few days ago).

Again all these efforts to get his attention. I understand he is a busy person and being a staff for a forum like this is not easy job to handle.

As he wrote earlier he's too busy even to read the "service" threads. So I assume you'd better be patient if you really want him to response.

Don't you see my patience yet? Or you are missing something here. May 29, 2018 to till now I am waiting and I will wait until I hear back from you.

[esmanthra]

All I care his response

You're talking about disrespect above. That is what I'm trying to say: there's no disrespect here. Most likely he just doesn't have an opportunity to be informed.

I do believe him to spend some time on seeing what community is doing here and there

He doesn't read all the threads. In fact our local moderators spend more time processing reports rather then browsing.
 

Don't you see my patience yet?

I just wanted to say that expectation could be very long and it's unlikely to be reduced by bumping. All the rest is up to you.

[mdayonliner]

You're talking about disrespect above. That is what I'm trying to say: there's no disrespect here. Most likely he just doesn't have an opportunity to be informed.

I see. Ok, you have a point now and I understand it. Thank you for pointing out.

I just wanted to say that expectation could be very long and it's unlikely to be reduced by bumping. All the rest is up to you.

I have no problem in waiting... Let's see how it goes.

[mdayonliner]

archived

This is my post in my thread.
Original.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4445021.msg40138293#msg40138293

Glad to see you here mate, the PM sender already mentioned your name to me. As you can see from the conversation I do not have the right to disclose his/her user information.

[digaran]

I have a bad news for OP, you are not in a position to "call out" moderators and ask them questions like this. theymos has already seen this topic and the rest is on him to decide what to do with his mod. you said what you wanted to say and admins know it as well.

[mdayonliner]

I have a bad news for OP, you are not in a position to "call out" moderators and ask them questions like this.

Why? What I do not have here? Do I have to have a special privileged member to find things. I do not need special treat. Thank you.

theymos has already seen this topic and the rest is on him to decide what to do with his mod.

Did s/he tell you in person or this is another one of your great great ideas that you create come up with often?

[digaran]

Why? What I do not have here? Do I have to have a special privileged member to find things. I do not need special treat. Thank you.

No you are actually not in a position to call out moderators like this, you can only call out theymos and present your evidence for him to take action, what you are doing is theymos's job, he is the one who should ask these questions not you. this is the red line of this forum which you are trying to cross, if you see me doing the calling out, that's because I expect DT members to be fair and not take their own sides and toss the rest of the people away.

What you need to know is that theymos reads almost every single thread on meta especially where mods are involved, so it is safe to say that he has already seen this topic.

[mdayonliner]

if you see me doing the calling out, that's because I expect DT members to be fair and not take their own sides and toss the rest of the people away.

First, stop pulling things to you, you are sounding like I am following your style? Come on D. Honestly speaking, I have no interest in your style or what you are doing in the forum.

No you are actually not in a position to call out moderators like this, you can only call out theymos and present your evidence for him to take action, what you are doing is theymos's job, he is the one who should ask these questions not you. this is the red line of this forum which you are trying to cross...

What logic you are trying to apply here? Sorry, this is another one of your senseless logic.

An admin do not need to call out anyone, means theymos can take action against anything just like this. Why s/he would bother to call out anyone? I am not doing anyone's job by calling out xandry.

I can ask question to anyone if I feel and see something is wrong so I am doing the same with xandry. Asking for an explanation because things are looking wrong here. If his/her action answer/s satisfy me then I will walk away and will give credits for his/her job, if I am not satisfied then I will leave it to the community and most provably present theymos my facts to take action against xandry. Rest will be up to theymos coz it's his forum. He knows the best things needed to be done for the forum.

What you need to know is that theymos reads almost every single thread on meta especially where mods are involved, so it is safe to say that he has already seen this topic.

Safe to say and confirmed saying are two different things Mr. self declared, no case won yet, certificate less lawyer.

this is the red line of this forum which you are trying to cross...

You still have not yet developed a sense (sorry, i am judging you from your history here) to understand red line, yellow line stuffs LOL

[ToTheMoon_XOM9IK]

A nod’s as good as a wink to a blind horse. Xandry, there's no place you can hide... 

[mdayonliner]

A nod’s as good as a wink to a blind horse. Xandry, there's no place you can hide... 

All I am after is, a valid explanation from xandry and I really hope the explanation will make proper sense to at-least some of the members if not everyone.

[Steamtyme]

Honestly I don't really have an issue with Merit being given for posts being reported. I don't think that every report needs to be merited.

I also don't think xandry has to explain themselves to any of us. They would have to explain themselves to theymos, and they may or may not make those conversations public.

I'm hoping that this system will increase post quality by:
 - Forcing people to post high-quality stuff in order to rank up. If you just post garbage, you will never get even 1 merit point, and you will therefore never be able to put links in your signature, etc.
 - Highlighting good posts with the "Merited by" line.

While we will not be directly moderating this, I encourage people to give merit to posts that are objectively high-quality, not just posts that you agree with.

So here is the thing theymos has given their thoughts on how they would like the program to proceed but in no way has laid out a clear/cut line on how to do so. From what I've seen theymos prefers to leave things unregulated but with some boundaries. There are also a ton of Merits that have been granted and not just in the first few care free fun days to objectively low-quality posts; or as a Hi five Bro!

Can't say I frequent the Russian board as it would all be Greek to me, but if this has improved the overall quality of the board then great. If it cleans up garbage and leaves quality posts in place, all the better.

[AverageGlabella]

"calling out" is probably the wrong thing to put in the title. It suggests that Xandry has done something wrong which he has not.

@Steamtyme

That is exactly why theymos will not be having a word with Xandry. He said it himself that the merit system is not moderated and he can't do anything if someone decides to merit a post or not.

[mdayonliner]

"calling out" is probably the wrong thing to put in the title. It suggests that Xandry has done something wrong which he has not.

May be you are right, I am having a feeling that it's more aggressive. I changed the title with more polite statement. Thank you for pointing out nicely.

I also don't think xandry has to explain themselves to any of us.

Ok so... taking it as an encouragement (since this is something coming from staff, highly reputable personal for this forum, right?), what if everyone of us starts creating an ANN to reward the reporter (that's what it seems) with 1 merit? Would you think it will look nice? The whole beauty of the merit system is going to be ruined IMO.

So here is the thing theymos has given their thoughts on how they would like the program to proceed but in no way has laid out a clear/cut line on how to do so.

May be s/he trusted our common sense however I think there should be a very clean clear guideline of spending sMerits. Thing is if we use common sense then we do not need the guideline. Of-course we can not expect everything to go 100% right. No one is perfect.

[Steamtyme]

I also don't think xandry has to explain themselves to any of us.

Ok so... taking it as an encouragement (since this is something coming from staff, highly reputable personal for this forum, right?), what if everyone of us starts creating an ANN to reward the reporter (that's what it seems) with 1 merit? Would you think it will look nice? The whole beauty of the merit system is going to be ruined IMO.

Joel_Jantsen's Merit Distribution Thread (Newbies Welcome)

So do you have a problem with this thread, which has been helpful in cleaning up the forum. With merit being a system I don't think there is any "beauty" to it. This would be the closest thing to beauty associated with the merit system in my opinion, objectively because I like the pattern.

So here is the thing theymos has given their thoughts on how they would like the program to proceed but in no way has laid out a clear/cut line on how to do so.

May be s/he trusted our common sense however I think there should be a very clean clear guideline of spending sMerits. Thing is if we use common sense then we do not need the guideline. Of-course we can not expect everything to go 100% right. No one is perfect.

Perfection is definitely an unattainable aspiration; and not something this system can be. So in the end as long as the merits being given out in some way better the forum; make it rain.

In this case with no harm befalling anyone, the ends justify the means.

[mdayonliner]

Joel_Jantsen's Merit Distribution Thread (Newbies Welcome)

Your sense really says that both cases are similar? Seriously! Dude do me a favor, instead of advocating for xandry, why not you knock him/her and ask to just give a feedback on this post? May be a statement which says s/he and theymos had an understanding on this issue whatever it is, just a satisfactory answer from  xandry can close all these illusions.

bump

[Jet Cash]

Merit is intended to be a rwward for making good posts.
Reporting posts is not "making good posts"
It is an abuse of the merit system for a mod to use merits to pay people to do his job.

[mdayonliner]

Merit is intended to be a rwward for making good posts.
Reporting posts is not "making good posts"
It is an abuse of the merit system for a mod to use merits to pay people to do his job.

Correct and it should be a common sense however seems like the mod/staff xandry do not have any interest to give us a clue of his thinking at all. Am I asking an illogical explanation?

Ps: I am/will gladly waiting for his/her response in this topic.

[Jet Cash]

You won't get an explanation. It's obvious that he is aware that his behavious is contrary to forum policy, and his lack of respnse would tend to indicate that he doesn't want to discuss it. His actions were probably done with the best of intentions, and an ethical man would apologise for his misunderstanding.

[mdayonliner]

You won't get an explanation. It's obvious that he is aware that his behavious is contrary to forum policy, and his lack of respnse would tend to indicate that he doesn't want to discuss it. His actions were probably done with the best of intentions, and an ethical man would apologise for his misunderstanding.

Well s/he is not stopping his/her same activities either so, I am not sure what's in his/her mind or stand in the issue.

Merit history:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=382413
http://loycevsbasement.privatedns.org/Merit/history/382413.html
Archive
Thanks to LoyceV's tools.

You won't get an explanation.

- Let's hope you are wrong
I am a very stubborn one. I will keep bumping the post for an explanation until I leave the forum for good.  

[Jet Cash]

Lazy mods abusing the merit system are a kick in the teeth for responsible merit sources.

[mdayonliner]

Lazy mods abusing the merit system are a kick in the teeth for responsible merit sources.

Did you visit your dentist lately? 😀

[mdayonliner]

Russian know-how
Recommendations for reporters from the moderator

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4538939.0

Seems like they manage a report spreadsheet or what?

1. Do not send reports to yourself...
2. Do not send reports...
3. No need to send reports...
.
.
.

[Jet Cash]

This thread is getting worse, and it is not helping the image of Russians. The Russians that I've known have been hard working and intelligent. Telling them not to report themselves, or to submit blank reports makes them look stupid. If that is really the mental level of the reporters, then the last thing we want is to give them any merits.

[xtraelv]

I think it is fair to say that the Russian moderator is not interested in responding to this thread.

I personally have no objection to using merit being used for any method that makes the forum better. Including as rewards to reduce spam.

In the interest of fairness to him I sent a message to him in Russian pointing to this thread.

« Sent to: xandry on: June 23, 2018, 10:49:54 AM »

Пpивeт !
мoжeтe ли вы пocмoтpeть нa этo, пoжaлyйcтa
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4330297.0
Я плoxo гoвopю пo-pyccки

No reply but my post on exchange account phishing in the Russian language section that was there since June 2, has since been mysteriously deleted. (I received no email to say it was deleted)
(Was in the correct section, it was translated and checked by a native Russian speaker and it was a translation of my own original work)

Quite possibly just co-incidence but I think the messenger just got shot.

.....limping back to my corner....

Edit: I was wrong - it was co-incidence

[esmanthra]

was translated and checked by a native Russian speaker

Was translated and checked so incredibly, that moderator (not xandry - another one) considered it as translation via automated tools (violation of p.27)?:)

[xtraelv]

was translated and checked by a native Russian speaker

Was translated and checked so incredibly, that moderator (not xandry - another one) considered it as translation via automated tools (violation of p.27)?

http://archive.today/SVeMc was the post.

Was translated for me by a Russian. It was an attempt to prevent phishing. (Russians are particularly targeted by phishing because it is difficult for them to report it to authorities)

[esmanthra]

http://archive.today/SVeMc was the post

I'm afraid you were deceived. It actually is the automated translation.

[xtraelv]

http://archive.today/SVeMc was the post

I'm afraid you were deceived. It actually is the automated translation.

I'm not good in Russian so I cannot comment on whether it is grammatically correct.
He did it for free to help so I don't feel deceived.

When I compare it between google translate and the post it is very different.

Maybe someone can do a better translation and post it on the Russian forum to prevent phishing. (like theyoungmillionaire kindly did for me on the Filipino forum)
(I can provide the links and images to make it easier)

[ToTheMoon_XOM9IK]

Yes. well, it's a new thing we're doing...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2775292.0 

[Xal0lex]

There are a lot of reporters in the Russian thread.

In the English thread no less.

Therefore, the moderator cares about the correctness of the reports

What's bad about it?

This thread is the training of reporters

In the English thread, too, there is a topic for the training of reporters. Why nobody is indignant?

Telling them not to report themselves, or to submit blank reports makes them look stupid.

And what if they send such reports? Users sending reports to their posts. It's wrong. Therefore, a topic with recommendations for reporters was created. So they don't make such mistakes. What's wrong with that? And nobody does them silly.

Yes. well, it's a new thing we're doing...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2775292.0  

Wrestling with plagiarism is it bad? Xtraelv - are you against the fight against plagiarism? In the English thread don't struggle with plagiarism? In the English thread respect plagiarists? WOW

[xandry]

Hello everyone. First of all: thanks to all who have explained my point of view in this thread. I have read this thread only today, thanks to user ToTheMoon_XOM9IK which has openly shown discontent in identification of plagiarism.

Really, gradually reducing for quite some time now I have stopped give merits for explanation of rules, who sends reports, because as a result I had concerns that this could not be used correctly and such way to receive merit would become too easy, and also it isn't clear for many other users. However, rewarded messages were really useful and often violators removed a cause of infringement.

Next part...

Yes. well, it's a new thing we're doing...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2775292.0 

Ok, this is good thread like Mod, please check new plagiarism: Reporting copy/pasting, please permban from LoyceV. You can explain what isn't pleasant to you?

[nakamura12]

Hello everyone. First of all: thanks to all who have explained my point of view in this thread. I have read this thread only today, thanks to user ToTheMoon_XOM9IK which has openly shown discontent in identification of plagiarism.

Really, gradually reducing for quite some time now I have stopped give merits for explanation of rules, who sends reports, because as a result I had concerns that this could not be used correctly and such way to receive merit would become too easy, and also it isn't clear for many other users. However, rewarded messages were really useful and often violators removed a cause of infringement.

Next part...

Yes. well, it's a new thing we're doing...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2775292.0 

Ok, this is good thread like Mod, please check new plagiarism: Reporting copy/pasting, please permban from LoyceV. You can explain what isn't pleasant to you?

I agree, by using using report to mods may be abused by creating alt accounts to report to mod and get merit. If I am to be questioned I would agree with your terms on how you give your merits as long as it's for the forum. Giving merit for helping moderating thread is not bad for bitcointalk but as a moderation of the thread to be responsible to the thread itself

[xandry]

This user has used your trust.
What will happen to such further?

I have noticed him too. I can't take away merits so he remains with the same rights as well as other users.

[ToTheMoon_XOM9IK]

Really, gradually reducing for quite some time now I have stopped give merits for explanation of rules, who sends reports, because as a result I had concerns that this could not be used correctly and such way to receive merit would become too easy, and also it isn't clear for many other users. However, rewarded messages were really useful and often violators removed a cause of infringement.

I get it. In fact, I think this conversation is over.

[xtraelv]

Wrestling with plagiarism is it bad? Xtraelv - are you against the fight against plagiarism? In the English thread don't struggle with plagiarism? In the English thread respect plagiarists? WOW

It was deleted for being a machine translation. You will notice that I corrected my post in this thread a while back. I have no issues with the deletion of posts that are substandard. The Russian moderators do a very good job.
It was definitely not plagiarism - since I am the author of the English version.

I don't want to break forum rules - I only want to prevent phishing.

I was sad that my well intentioned post was deleted but I now understand fully why it was deleted. I don't disagree with the reason and taikuri13 has very kindly done a new translation for me and PM'd it to me. (Including having checked it here: https://text.ru/antiplagiat/empty) The previous translation was done for me by another user on this forum ( who kindly had translated it for me but not to the standard required for the Russian forum ).

Xal0lex - I do not have any issues with the methods used in the Russian forum and have previously defended the methods used. (Including using merits to reward reporters) . The reasons I like the Russian forum - I find the standard of posts there good, highly organised, great humor and often find information there that is not available in the English forum. I definitely did not intend to cause offence.

My only comment is that for a non native speaker - it is hard to recognize when something is not to an adequate standard.

[Jannat76]

Another stuff making fun by Sending merit that he has a responsibility to make him a full member
merit sender  dbshck Received Merit  kaisa

Merit HIstory https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=1186242

[xtraelv]

Another stuff making fun by Sending merit that he has a responsibility to make him a full member
merit sender  dbshck Received Merit  kaisa

Merit HIstory https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=1186242

Nothing looks wrong with their merit history. That staff member is probably a merit source and the member getting the merit is making good posts.

[mdayonliner]

Thank you xandry for your time and finally to notice the topic. I have been trying to get your attention on this topic since the day I have created it, Even I sent you a PM. It took long however, I am happy that ultimately I had you here.

...now I have stopped give merits for explanation of rules, who sends reports, because as a result I had concerns that this could not be used correctly and such way to receive merit would become too easy, and also it isn't clear for many other users....

It's not impossible to earn merit by creating good contents, engaging in conversations, by being to the point. I have no doubt that the idea of yours (there is a reason for you to be a staff) had good intentions however it was too easy to misuse by the members and they in fact took that advantage. Here you have some data.

I encourage people to give merit to posts that are objectively high-quality, not just posts that you agree with.

The spirit of the whole idea of merit is to encourage users to create good contestants, contents that a relatively high-quality.

[chimk]

This story is not over.
EPILOGUE.
1. In the Russian section there is a professional copy-paste .
inbizin .
2. Inbizin teaches to write copy-paste , and buy merit.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818398.msg28954596#msg28954596
http://archive.today/2jdwx

лaйфxaк: гyглишь cтaтью 1000+ cимвoлoв нa oкoлoкpиптoвyю тeмaтикy, кoпипacтишь, пoкyпaeшь мepиты в нee и нe дoкaпaтьcя Wink

3. Inbizin teaches you to buy merit and create multiple accounts.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818398.msg28970236#msg28970236
http://archive.today/Lr2wR

ничeгo мyтнoгo, кoпи бaбки нa мepит и\или клeпaй мyльтoв

4. inbizin gets 100 merit. Sender - xandry MODERATOR Russian section.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;u=1416871
5. inbizin holds competitions copy-paste. Sells? Gives me for a copy-paste.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3403073.msg35923589#msg35923589
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3403073.msg35891506#msg35891506
http://archive.today/xG4vU

Alex_Sr, Avikbch и humantraffic cyдя пo вceмy cкoпипacтили cвoи пocты из oднoгo иcтoчникa(мoжнo нaйти oбщиe cтpoки нaпиcaнныe cлoвo в cлoвo)
Пoдoждy eщe дo yтpa мoжeт ктo caм нaпишeт xopoшo ecли нeт тo пoбeдил пepвый

я нe имeю в видy 100% yникaльнocть, глaвнoe чтoбы был пpoцeнт yникaльнocти вышe чeм y дpyгиx


B кoнкypce кoпипacтoв пoбeдил Alex_Sr и  Avikbch пoлyчaeт мepит зa тo чтo cтapaлcя нaпиcaть caм.
Чacть пocтa Alex_Sr пpишлocь выpeзaть из зa oбъeмa и вcтaвил тyдa oпиcaниe oт Avikbch  Grin

6. inbizin a professional copy-paste became famous in the Russian section for plagiarism.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2775292.msg41079170#msg41079170
http://archive.today/aqSb0
7. Moderator xandry, delete the article, says WARNING.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2775292.msg41138684#msg41138684
http://archive.today/ecEik

Кoпипacтy yдaлил, нaдeюcь, тaкoгo бoльшe нe пoвтopитcя. У нeгo yжe ecть пpeдyпpeждeниe зa нapyшeниe пpaвил.

Morality. inbizin wants to buy merit, the moderator sends him a measure, inbizin Sells? gives the merit for copy-paste  . The moderator is WARNING. In the Russian section, everyone is silent, there is nobody to tell the truth. Conclusion: - merit fell into bad hands.
The Silence of the Lambs.
The end.

[xtraelv]

This story is not over.
EPILOGUE.
1. In the Russian section there is a professional copy-paste .
inbizin .
2. Inbizin teaches to write copy-paste , and buy merit.

-snip-

Morality. inbizin wants to buy merit, the moderator sends him a measure, inbizin Sells? gives the merit for copy-paste  . The moderator is WARNING. In the Russian section, everyone is silent, there is nobody to tell the truth. Conclusion: - merit fell into bad hands.
The Silence of the Lambs.
The end.

I'm not sure if that is the case. I read that post and thought it was sarcasm rather than "teaching".

So difficult to see as I am a non native limited speaker.

Every forum has trouble with people who are wolves in sheep clothing. They are good at pretending they are helping while they are just looking to gain merit so they can start signature spamming. While others appear to be annoying but actually make the forum a better place.

I spoke to Xal0lex and I am of the opinion that they work very hard and try their best to do the right thing for the forum. As a moderator on another site I am aware that moderators cannot please everyone all the time - no matter how good they are.

If someone is playing foolish games I am sure they eventually will get caught and get a ban.

Repeat offenders eventually get caught and offenders that stop offending are no longer a menace to society.

[mdayonliner]

~

... now I have stopped give merits for explanation of rules, who sends reports, because as a result I had concerns that this could not be used correctly and such way to receive merit would become too easy, and also it isn't clear for many other users....

IMO since xandry acknowledged and realized that it was not a good idea then we should give him the honor (it's only how I see) to have a 2nd chance. In life we always make mistakes. No one is perfect.  

I will lock the topic in the next 24 hours. You are welcome to share your thoughts.

[mdayonliner]

I will lock the topic in the next 24 hours. You are welcome to share your thoughts.

Time for the topic to be locked. Response from xandry

[mdayonliner]

Unlocked the topic after making this post:

inbizin = bitkoinguru$$$

I wonder what action will be taken against the act inbizin done? Will they get a ban or they will be living free?  
I also wonder why the Russian section is rising so many questions. Do all these have any connection with the mod xandry. Seems like these people are very much loved by the mod.
I also wonder how can xandry not notice a topic that was specifically created for him, I mentioned him 100s (+- a decent number) times with his name everywhere but he noticed it after 29 days later or so!.  

I have read this thread only today, thanks to user ToTheMoon_XOM9IK

A silly excuse, isn't it?
I also wonder why not many member actually did not want to talk against xandry. When you do not get support then obviously you take defensive steps that's what I did, sorry I was tired of making more enemies. I locked that topic.

Honestly speaking - from outside, the Russian section seems a mess. A total mess. It could be a better place than it is now. Seems like mismanagement is killing the section.

By the way chimk, congrats on getting back your account. You have hell lot of bravery in you. Good job.

I'm overwhelmed by the possibility of new attacks on me. Please consider the level of aggression on me.

I am sure you will handle it smoothly.

PS: I think I will unlock the topic again just in-case anyone wants to make any comment after reading the whole topic and the conversations. Here you go: [staff] xandry: may I ask an explanation? Response received!

[xandry]

I don't check threads in this section if i don't have enough free time, and the last personal message which I answered today, was of March thirteenth.

If we have total mess in Russian section, then in English-speaking forum probably at all nobody breaks anything rules?