[ANN] Catcoin - 0.9.1.1 - Old thread. Locked. Please use 0.9.2 thread.

[zerodrama]

The dynamic response of a 6 min coin is significantly different from a 10 minute coin. We don't know how KGW will respond, therefore we have to test, just like any other solution. I never said it wouldn't work, just that its neither simple nor a copy/paste solution.

No it is not, Tell me which difference is greater : the difference between 6 min to 10 or from 30s to 6min?  KGW proven to work for everycase scenario from 30s to 6min. By any law of probability you want to use there is 80-90% chance it will work from the get go with 10min blocktime

There is a huge difference in dynamics.

As an example:
5, 25, 125, 625
10, 100, 1000, 10000

You assume 6 is close to 10, when in fact it is not.

For example when we do the limit, almost everyone assumes we are adding and subtracting (OMG TWO VALUES). We are multiplying. That means flipping the fraction not the sign.

I know it's not directly accessible to most people, but compounded effects, which Kimoto has, are extremely divergent at small changes.

Also regarding the copying and pasting of code:
They copied it because they are lazy.
And it is not sufficient to offer constants simply because they work.
We need to know WHY they work.

This isn't a cute little video game app or a messenger app. This is a massive network consensus based technology.

[kuroman]

50 CAT bounty for the first post that shows that KGW was or is used successfully in a coin with a 10 minute or longer block time.


Disclaimer:  This is my money, not CATs that belong in any way to development or that have been donated by anyone for any reason.

50 CAT bounty for the first post that shows that the Kimoto Gravity Well (KGW) was or is used successfully in a coin with a 10 minute or longer block time.

Anyone?

This was answered before check out my reply above.

1- There is no recent scrypt coin that was released with 10 min block time
2- KGW Works perfectly for coins from 30s to 6 min so by extrapolation and by the application of whatever probability law you want You have around 90% that KGW will work AS IS without even a single tweak for Catcoin, and the probability goes to 99% if you tweak the parameters.

You are just nitpicking right now trying to descridit KGW as a solution by whatever mean because there is no other reason for such a bounty other than that since you already know the answer.

The dynamic response of a 6 min coin is significantly different from a 10 minute coin. We don't know how KGW will respond, therefore we have to test, just like any other solution. I never said it wouldn't work, just that its neither simple nor a copy/paste solution.

No it is not, Tell me which difference is greater : the difference between 6 min to 10 or from 30s to 6min?  KGW proven to work for everycase scenario from 30s to 6min. By any law of probability you want to use there is 80-90% chance it will work from the get go with 10min blocktime

There is a huge difference in dynamics.

As an example:
5, 25, 125, 625
10, 100, 1000, 10000

You assume 6 is close to 10, when in fact it is not.

For example when we do the limit, almost everyone assumes we are adding and subtracting (OMG TWO VALUES). We are multiplying. That means flipping the fraction not the sign.

I know it's not directly accessible to most people, but compounded effects, which Kimoto has, are extremely divergent at small changes.

Also regarding the copying and pasting of code:
They copied it because they are lazy.
And it is not sufficient to offer constants simply because they work.
We need to know WHY they work.

This isn't a cute little video game app or a messenger app. This is a massive network consensus based technology.

You are totally wrong, to judge if 6 is close to 10 you need a scale or référence, the reference is KGW works for everything from 30s to 6min perfectly the difference between 30s and 6min is 12x while from 6 to 10 is x1.666....
So Yes 6 is very close to 10 in our case and in our scale. I'm looking forward to your next pseudo argument (math is absolute).

[SlimePuppy]

50 CAT bounty for the first post that shows that KGW was or is used successfully in a coin with a 10 minute or longer block time.


Disclaimer:  This is my money, not CATs that belong in any way to development or that have been donated by anyone for any reason.

50 CAT bounty for the first post that shows that the Kimoto Gravity Well (KGW) was or is used successfully in a coin with a 10 minute or longer block time.

Anyone?

This was answered before check out my reply above.

Thank you for your input, kuroman.  When it comes to code, precision is important.  I asked for a positive report, not a negative.  These are not the same.

Your gravity well proposal is on the table.  As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that will get it removed from consideration would be an onslaught of KGW cultists trying to push all other options aside.  The battle will be fought later on the testnet, not as a war of words in this forum.

[envy2010]

kuro, I don't think that the community is going to reach a consensus on a copy/paste implementation of KGW, for a couple reasons:

1: it seems hacked together, in that some of its functionality is (looks?) redundant to other code, and overall is styled entirely differently from the rest of the code; this could be fixed by a good integration.

2: the function isn't well understood by the community, and the perception of black-box in an open-source project isn't going to sit well. I don't claim to understand it myself. I know its an exponential smoothing that puts a lot of weight on recent blocktimes, but "EventHorizonDeviation = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(144)), -1.228))" has a lot of hardcoded constants for no clear reason.

3: the effect the function will have on Catcoin isn't obvious... we don't even have any estimations other than "well it works good on other coins". Catcoin has a slow block time and large block reward relative to other coins; is KGW going to kick the diff up fast enough under hash attack? Will it drop fast enough after the attack? Which of those constants need to be modified if tests show that it doesn't work quite right for Catcoin?

I think it has potential, but the next steps to getting it to community acceptance are to break down the guts at a fundamental level, at least to a point where we can get some kind of model for it working, or pseudocode so its easier to understand for those not advanced in C programming.

If you can put together a simple model, even just showing its time-response to a step or impulse change off a baseline constant hashrate (e.g. constant 50 MH/s stepped to constant 400 MH/s), I would love to see that. Or just step through the function and point out what the hardcoded constants and unique variables are doing, so others can replicate it.

[Percy520]

Anyone could explain why the price keep going down?

[envy2010]

Anyone could explain why the price keep going down?

Cryptsy wasn't moving CAT for several days because they were on the old wallet. That might have something to do with it if people were trying to sell for days but couldn't until now.

[Percy520]

Would be stupid to sell now coz the prices is so low.

[SlimePuppy]

Can anyone confirm or deny this?

r3wt    October 1, 2013

actually rum, the “kimoto gravity well” is a rip off of J-coin’s SSDRA, (Symmetrically Scaling Difficulty Readjustment Algorithm) with block roll back if it gets stuck(ie, the block target is lowered to 0 if a block hasn’t been found within a given timeframe.)

I introduced this idea in J-coin, by combining YAC’s retargeting algorithm with Terracoins 3 block retarget, and a switch for emergency retarget every 10 minutes. It’s also a feature present in OSC albeit the difficulty is adjusted per block and there is no 10 minute block rollback. the actual person who wrote the white paper on this idea(and co-author of the algorithm is a 17 year old from Oklahoma named Justin.

http://cryptolife.net/in-depth-altcoin-analysis-megacoin/

[madoka]

Anyone could explain why the price keep going down?

read the latest posts, and not make me want to invest in this currency

[TheTribesman]

[dotnetmin]

50 CAT bounty for the first post that shows that KGW was or is used successfully in a coin with a 10 minute or longer block time.


Disclaimer:  This is my money, not CATs that belong in any way to development or that have been donated by anyone for any reason.

Andy, please read it - there are so many posts

i am not able to read all the things you disscussaed the last pages, i won´t understand 50%
Why not simply reduce bockreward to 5 CAT and reduce blocktargettime to 1 minute and use KGW.
I wrote it a few pages before. Useres won´t care about this and pricestabilsation would accour
with a stabile blocktime. Don´t risk loosing your job with Opraha because of this shitty small problem
with recalculation diff and too long blocktime.
Once this things will be done CAT is ready to go to mars and it will

Nobody will care about the things the coin was made once  with parameters of BTC.
For example TIPS will start with half the reward 50000 blocks earlier than once planned.
They will fork today or tommorrow. Don´t loose time in discuss with too much people who not understand
how coins are working. Surly, they are the community but you won´t can make everydody happy with your decision.

[SlimePuppy]

50 CAT bounty for the first post that shows that KGW was or is used successfully in a coin with a 10 minute or longer block time.


Disclaimer:  This is my money, not CATs that belong in any way to development or that have been donated by anyone for any reason.

Andy, please read it - there are so many posts

I have read every post in this new thread, and every post in the first thread.  I found and started mining CAT on 26th January.  I finally joined this forum because I was confused about progress by the dev team - I could not identify the developers, could not identify who in the forum was working for and who was working against CAT and her community - as you might recall I thought hozer was acting as a long-wolf terrorist, and I yelled at Maverick.  Not the best job interview performance.

i am not able to read all the things you disscussaed the last pages, i won´t understand 50%
Why not simply reduce bockreward to 5 CAT and reduce blocktargettime to 1 minute and use KGW.
I wrote it a few pages before. Useres won´t care about this and pricestabilsation would accour
with a stabile blocktime. Don´t risk loosing your job with Opraha because of this shitty small problem
with recalculation diff and too long blocktime.
Once this things will be done CAT is ready to go to mars and it will

Nobody will care about the things the coin was made once  with parameters of BTC.
For example TIPS will start with half the reward 50000 blocks earlier than once planned.
They will fork today or tommorrow. Don´t loose time in discuss with too much people who not understand
how coins are working. Surly, they are the community but you won´t can make everydody happy with your decision.

There are some problems here.  This community has made clear that they don't want the 'guts' of this coin changed.  That means we stay with the parameters we started with - and those include the block time target, block rewards, and the rest of the internals.  The work we're continuing to do is directed towards steadily improving CAT's performance.  We have achieved an approximate 10 minute block time after just over 1 month since CAT was born, but it's not steady enough.  Changing the block reword won't change the difficulty swings, nor will it balance the block rate.

We are not in danger of losing our place with Oprah's endorsement - we won that endorsement in part because we're actively working with the coin and because we have this community.

I agree completely with you when you say that many people will not understand what is happening.  But we feel very strongly that this community should be informed and should be allowed to understand if they want.  That's why we don't favour debates here to be in a programming language for one example.  Another problem here, frankly, is that some of the arguing takes up too much space.  We had 400+ pages in less than 1 month - and too much of it was a battle of term papers with a bit of trader's psychological warfare.  Unfortunately, while you say that people won't understand here, some of the people arguing tech details seem to prefer filling pages here rather than getting involved in the dev process.  For those (you know who you are!):  If you don't get involved working to make CAT better, you give up your right to nag or judge out here.  There's a place for code - find it.  If you are going to communicate out here, follow the core rules of public speaking/writing and know your audience.

You are very right that not everyone will be satisfied.  But we are not yet at the stage where we have to make the next set of choices.  We have a luxury of time we did not have in the past month.  I hope we'll use it wisely.

Thanks for your thoughts and feedback!

[serje]

50 CAT bounty for the first post that shows that KGW was or is used successfully in a coin with a 10 minute or longer block time.


Disclaimer:  This is my money, not CATs that belong in any way to development or that have been donated by anyone for any reason.

50 CAT bounty for the first post that shows that the Kimoto Gravity Well (KGW) was or is used successfully in a coin with a 10 minute or longer block time.

Anyone?

Is this what you are looking for?

List of various Kimoto Gravity Well configurations used.

Megacoin
Date Added: September 13, 2013 (~3.5 months in)
http://megacoin.co.nz/
EventHorizonDeviation  = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(144)), -1.228));
BlocksTargetSpacing     = 2.5 * 60; // 2.5 minutes
PastSecondsMin            = TimeDaySeconds * 0.25;
PastSecondsMax           = TimeDaySeconds * 7;

Anoncoin
Date Added: October 12, 2013 (~4 months in)
http://anoncoin.net/
EventHorizonDeviation  = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(144)), -1.228));
BlocksTargetSpacing     = 3 * 60; // 3 minutes
PastSecondsMin            = TimeDaySeconds * 0.25;
PastSecondsMax           = TimeDaySeconds * 7;

Memorycoin 2.0
Date Added: December 17, 2013 (~2-3 days in)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=370806.0
EventHorizonDeviation  = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(144)), -1.228));
BlocksTargetSpacing     = 6 * 60; // 6 minutes
PastSecondsMin            = TimeDaySeconds * 0.25;
PastSecondsMax           = TimeDaySeconds * 1;

Pandacoin
Date Added: January 4th, 2014 (on launch)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=399127.0
EventHorizonDeviation  = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(144)), -1.228));
BlocksTargetSpacing     = 2.5 * 60; // 2.5 minutes
PastSecondsMin            = TimeDaySeconds * 0.25;
PastSecondsMax           = TimeDaySeconds * 1;

Franko
Date Added: January 17, 2014 (~7.5 months in)
http://frankos.org/
EventHorizonDeviation  = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(28.2)), -1.228));
BlocksTargetSpacing     = .5 * 60; // 30 seconds
PastSecondsMin            = TimeDaySeconds * 0.01;
PastSecondsMax           = TimeDaySeconds * 0.14;

Foxcoin
Date Added: January 20, 2014 (on launch)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=420727.0
EventHorizonDeviation  = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(144)), -1.228));
BlocksTargetSpacing     = 60; // 1 minutes
PastSecondsMin            = TimeDaySeconds * 0.25;
PastSecondsMax           = TimeDaySeconds * 1;

Klondike Coin
Date Added: January 22, 2014 (~0.5 months in)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=407705.0
EventHorizonDeviation  = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(28.2)), -1.228));
BlocksTargetSpacing     = 1 * 60; // 1 Minute
PastSecondsMin            = TimeDaySeconds * 0.01;
PastSecondsMax           = TimeDaySeconds * 0.14;

Vertcoin
http://vertcoin.org/
Date Added: January 26, 2014 (~0.5 months in)
EventHorizonDeviation  = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(144)), -1.228));
BlocksTargetSpacing     = 2.5 * 60; // 2.5 minutes
PastSecondsMin            = TimeDaySeconds * 0.25;
PastSecondsMax           = TimeDaySeconds * 7;

Popularcoin
https://cryptocointalk.com/topic/3832-popularcoin-pop-information/
Date Added: January 28, 2014 (on launch)
EventHorizonDeviation  = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(28.2)), -1.228));
BlocksTargetSpacing     = 51; // 51 seconds
PastSecondsMin            = TimeDaySeconds * 0.01;
PastSecondsMax           = TimeDaySeconds * 0.14;

LeproCoin
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=400393
Date Added: January 29, 2014 (~1 month in, adding soon)
EventHorizonDeviation  = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(14.4)), -1.228));
BlocksTargetSpacing     = .25 * 60; // 15 seconds
PastSecondsMin            = TimeDaySeconds * 0.0025;
PastSecondsMax           = TimeDaySeconds * 0.03125;

Prospercoin
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=438150.0
Date Added: January 29, 2014 (on launch)
EventHorizonDeviation  = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(28.2)), -1.228));
BlocksTargetSpacing     = 2 * 60; // 2 Minutes
PastSecondsMin            = TimeDaySeconds * 0.01;
PastSecondsMax           = TimeDaySeconds * 0.14;

#coin
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=405381.0
Date Added: February 1, 2014 (launching soon)
EventHorizonDeviation  = unknown
BlocksTargetSpacing     = unknown
PastSecondsMin            = unknown
PastSecondsMax           = unknown

Reddcoin
http://www.reddcoin.com
Date Added: February 2, 2014 (launching soon)
EventHorizonDeviation  = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(28.2)), -1.228));
BlocksTargetSpacing     = 1 * 60; // 1 Minute
PastSecondsMin            = TimeDaySeconds * 0.01;
PastSecondsMax           = TimeDaySeconds * 0.14;

Cryptographic Anomaly
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=437950.0
Date Added: Feb 4th, 2014
EventHorizonDeviation  = unknown
BlocksTargetSpacing     = unknown
PastSecondsMin            = unknown
PastSecondsMax           = unknown

FedoraCoin
http://fedoraco.in/
Date Added: Feb 4th, 2014
EventHorizonDeviation  = 1 + (0.7084 * pow((double(PastBlocksMass)/double(144)), -1.228));
BlocksTargetSpacing     = 60; // 1 minutes
PastSecondsMin            = TimeDaySeconds*0.25;
PastSecondsMax           = TimeDaySeconds*1;

Maxcoin
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=438150.0
Date Added: February 5, 2014 (launching soon)
EventHorizonDeviation  = unknown
BlocksTargetSpacing     = unknown
PastSecondsMin            = unknown
PastSecondsMax           = unknown

Mooncoin
http://mooncoin.info/
Date Added: TBD
EventHorizonDeviation  = unknown
BlocksTargetSpacing     = unknown
PastSecondsMin            = unknown
PastSecondsMax           = unknown

LeafCoin
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=430091
Date Added: TBD
EventHorizonDeviation  = unknown
BlocksTargetSpacing     = unknown
PastSecondsMin            = unknown
PastSecondsMax           = unknown

Cura
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=431095
Date Added: TBD
EventHorizonDeviation  = unknown
BlocksTargetSpacing     = unknown
PastSecondsMin            = unknown
PastSecondsMax           = unknown

AutoCoin
https://cryptocointalk.com/topic/4355-ann-autocoin-atm-release-date-15feb2014/
Date Added: Feb, 14, 2014 (launching soon)
EventHorizonDeviation  = unknown
BlocksTargetSpacing     = unknown
PastSecondsMin            = unknown
PastSecondsMax           = unknown

SynCoin
http://synco.in/
Date Added: Feb, 19, 2014 (launching soon)
EventHorizonDeviation  = unknown
BlocksTargetSpacing     = unknown
PastSecondsMin            = unknown
PastSecondsMax           = unknown

[kalus]

Would be stupid to sell now coz the prices is so low.

not if people believe the price could go lower. 

[SlimePuppy]

50 CAT bounty for the first post that shows that KGW was or is used successfully in a coin with a 10 minute or longer block time.


Disclaimer:  This is my money, not CATs that belong in any way to development or that have been donated by anyone for any reason.

50 CAT bounty for the first post that shows that the Kimoto Gravity Well (KGW) was or is used successfully in a coin with a 10 minute or longer block time.

Anyone?

Is this what you are looking for?

List of various Kimoto Gravity Well configurations used.
<snip>

Sorry, no - unless any of these have 10 minute or longer blocks.

Thank you though as you found more than I did.  Please post a CAT address - I'll pay 20 for the list.

Andy

[SlimePuppy]

Would be stupid to sell now coz the prices is so low.

not if people believe the price could go lower.  

Now that cryptsy has their code fixed and trades are moving again, we're seeing a nice rebound in price.  

And it looks like we can expect a new rush of confirmed transactions as well:

http://www.catstat.info/

[TheTribesman]

I agree that we need PROOF that the KGW works with 10 minute block coin otherwise all that will happen is that the market and hash will probably impact on the coin against all expectations. Anyone with software experience knows that just because V1.2 works next door it doesn't mean that it will work here UNLESS we have exactly the same settings.

KGW 'might' really screw the coin up if our config is 'not supported'.

Can anyone answer what happens next if KGW does not have the desired effect? More arguing? It really is too much in CatCoin. I know there are many geniuses in here but the peacock posturing of intelligence is getting too much, and getting us nowhere, and getting irritating (and actually quite frightening).

At first I used to see the disagreements as a good thing. All the best bands have opposing views which leads to musical innovation. I thought this was CatCoin.

I am not technical (well, I am, but I prefer being lazy). I don't pretend to understand all the algo calcs but to my mind THERE'S ONLY ONE BIG REASON WHY THIS IS HAPPENING (IMHO) AND THAT IS THE PRICE OF CATCOIN. Not difficulty recalc, not block times, not algos.

Before the last fork I was going to cheekily ask what happens when CatCoin doesn't get to $5,000 each exactly 1 hour after the fork. I thought it was a bit harsh. I thought we'd all get along better after the fork but it seems to have gotten WORSE!!!

 

[Acidyo]

What is going on with the difficulty?

[ISAWHIM]

wallet stuck on block 21755 says (2 hours behind)... never updates past that point... Forked...

That is with the connections provided in the config... of which, only two ever connect. Rest come from forked connection. Apparently a dead connection.

[niki25]

some cats for a new 300khash miner?, ty i have 0.04cats, so op!
9UbGJ5GZvYWSWQxvgiMPNNkxDvAiDvFTKb