Trust system abuse / DT2 member Vod is provably dishonestly rating people

[Anduck]

Please red-rate theymos as well, as he agrees with me that self-bidding is not scammy. Also red-rate Vod who said he doesn't see my actions there as untrustworthy. Also red-rate everyone else agreeing with me. Nice example of DT position misuse, SaltySpitoon.

I see your actions as you not honoring an auction, and thats untrustworthy. My feedback is just a warning for anyone who might be interested in participating in an auction that you run, that I'd recommend against it. When Theymos doesn't honor an auction, I'll leave him negative feedback as well.

I honored my auction perfectly. Stop lying. Auction rules were followed 100% and nothing shady, unethical, wrong, scammy, untrustworthy or bad was done. It's just your incompetence regarding auctions that led to your rating.

Please red-tag others too, show your skills to everyone! See this (there the auction rules were changed during auction): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3147489.0 More ridiculous ratings would likely lead to changes, I don't want anything bad to mprep. Also tag BTCC official for changing auction rules during auction. No offence, Bobby... I just want to make a point.

I hope that theymos removes DT list.

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[SaltySpitoon]

I see your actions as you not honoring an auction, and thats untrustworthy. My feedback is just a warning for anyone who might be interested in participating in an auction that you run, that I'd recommend against it. When Theymos doesn't honor an auction, I'll leave him negative feedback as well.

I honored my auction perfectly. Stop lying. Auction rules were followed 100% and nothing shady, unethical, wrong, scammy, untrustworthy or bad was done. It's just your incompetence regarding auctions that led to your rating.

Please red-tag others too, show your skills to everyone! See this (there the auction rules were changed during auction): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3147489.0 More ridiculous ratings would likely lead to changes, I don't want anything bad to mprep. Also tag BTCC official for changing auction rules during auction. No offence, Bobby... I just want to make a point.

I hope that theymos removes DT list.
[/quote]

I do not trust you because you acted shady in my opinion, so I leave you feedback based on my opinion. It just so happens that common sense agrees with me, but thats just my justification. If you don't like it, that sure sucks.

BAC is on my trust list, so don't worry I had 20 PMs about this when it was going on, I've seen it already.

the case came to a conclusion: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3147489.msg45657566#msg45657566

I don't like to give out negative feedback except in absolute cases. In he said she said cases where there are two sides of the story, its disproportionately punishing for me to leave negative feedback for someone. The two sides could reconciliate a day later, and there would be lasting damage from the negative feedback, even when all is said and done.

Mistakes happen, people sell damaged goods, or want to accept bids a second after the auction ends, bad judgements are made. I don't need to punish someone for a mistake they made that they can fix. This isn't a mistake, you are willingly defending your wrong position this much time later. I'm not worried about your case being a mistake, because we've thoroughly discussed that you are certain that you didn't make a mistake. I disagree, and would not trust your auctions, because you could "not unethically" invalidate the auction at any point. I believe that its worthy of warning people not to participate in your auctions.

Just because you can justify to yourself not honoring your auctions, doesn't mean anyone will agree with you.

[Anduck]

the case came to a conclusion

You think that a 3 year old auction event didn't come to a conclusion? Self-bidding on that auction three years ago was a mistake, but in no way untrustworthy action or scamming. Your opinion doesn't change that fact one bit. Again, your incompetence regarding auctions shows here, and apparent unwillingness to educate yourself.

Also "interesting" that you don't find blackmailing/threatening untrustworthy at all. You know, the thing Vod did to me.

I hope theymos deletes DT.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I do not trust you because you acted shady in my opinion, so I leave you feedback based on my opinion. It just so happens that common sense agrees with me, but thats just my justification.

I'm trying to stay out of this, even just writing opinions on the matter, but you are absolutely justified in leaving Anduck a neg, and there's no way in hell I'd trust him in an auction situation.  Frankly I'm very, very tempted to leave him a neg for his behavior--and I'd be comfortable doing that because I don't trust him and he's done something very concrete which has earned him that mistrust, to wit: bidding on his own auction.

But this isn't a battle I want to get in the middle of.  If I recall correctly, I didn't feel comfortable with some of the things Vod said as far as the feedback removal situation went.  I read the whole thing when this began and haven't reviewed it. 

The problem is that Anduck is trying to twist these two issues together such that Vod's feedback for self-bidding is wrong because of the previous argument about mutual feedback removal.  Vod's feedback is on the money, regardless of what the PM exchange was (which I'll take a look at later).  Anduck doesn't see what he did as wrong, and I think it was a huge breach of auction etiquette, if not strictly rule-breaking.

[SaltySpitoon]

the case came to a conclusion

You think that a 3 year old auction event didn't come to a conclusion?

Apparently not, or we wouldn't have had this discussion in the first place.

Self-bidding on that auction three years ago was a mistake, but in no way untrustworthy action or scamming.

Had you left it years ago with the bolded and left out the rest, you probably would have been fine, people would have forgiven you and none of this would be an issue. Why was it a mistake? Because it was an untrustworthy action. I'm curious, why do you think it was a mistake if you don't think you did anything wrong?


I feel I have an obligation to explain my feedback to you. I did that, you don't agree. Thats where my obligation in this ends.

I don't know anything about whats gone on between you and Vod, but as I said, I don't get involved in he said she said cases. All of the information I needed regarding this case was straight from you, the source, so I'm not worried about misinterpreting it, or only hearing half truths from one side.

Ask Theymos to remove me from DT if you feel I'm abusing my position, and I'll be completely fine with that. I wouldn't remove my feedback though, because it is completely accurate.

[Anduck]

Why was it a mistake? Because it was an untrustworthy action. I'm curious, why do you think it was a mistake if you don't think you did anything wrong?

As you're curious, I'll of course explain myself. It was a mistake, because it was against Bitcointalk auction standards that had been defined in practice during the years. I wasn't aware of that self-bidding was not cool, I learned about it later. Self-bidding however is not wrong, untrustworthy or scammy in any way. It's simply not part of the auction standard of Bitcointalk, even though self-bidding is part of various auction standards around the world. Again, your opinion about it doesn't change that fact one bit.
So of course I wouldn't want to go against Bitcointalk auction norms again, so it can be called a mistake done by me.

I feel I have an obligation to explain my feedback to you.

No, you don't have any obligation.

Had you left it years ago with the bolded and left out the rest, you probably would have been fine, people would have forgiven you and none of this would be an issue.

Or in other words the fate of my trust was simply about sentence "but in no way untrustworthy action or scamming". Funny.
I really can't do much here, right? You think that half of the world are scammers, ie. anyone holding an auction where the seller also can bid. So be it, I guess. No stating the facts of the auctions around the world, or red trust follows. Only USA is. Right?

Ask Theymos to remove me from DT if you feel I'm abusing my position, and I'll be completely fine with that. I wouldn't remove my feedback though, because it is completely accurate.

If you feel that you should be removed from DT, why not ask him yourself?

[SaltySpitoon]

Ask Theymos to remove me from DT if you feel I'm abusing my position, and I'll be completely fine with that. I wouldn't remove my feedback though, because it is completely accurate.

If you feel that you should be removed from DT, why not ask him yourself?

I think I'm pretty well justified, I was just putting it out there as an option for you.

[Anduck]

None of the Collectibles section people or people of that auction red-rated me. I have explained myself. What does this tell you.

Also, again, it's interesting that you're completely fine with vod blackmailing/threatening me.

Hoping that theymos removes the DT list completely. It's a bad bad thing.

[SaltySpitoon]

None of the Collectibles section people or people of that auction red-rated me. I have explained myself. What does this tell you.

Also, again, it's interesting that you're completely fine with vod blackmailing/threatening me.

Hoping that theymos removes the DT list completely. It's a bad bad thing.

It seems they did, and you allegedly left retaliatory negative feedback. Misuse of the trust system?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2535142.msg25849975#msg25849975

Also, yeah, everyone in the collectibles section seems to have supported your decision, no one seems unhappy.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1399824.msg14247949#msg14247949
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1399824.msg14250560#msg14250560
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1399824.msg14250863#msg14250863
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2535142.msg25862499#msg25862499
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2535142.msg25907834#msg25907834
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2535142.msg25959659#msg25959659

Also, again, it's interesting that you're completely fine with vod blackmailing/threatening me.

Yup, this is a mystery to us both.

I don't know anything about whats gone on between you and Vod, but as I said, I don't get involved in he said she said cases. All of the information I needed regarding this case was straight from you, the source, so I'm not worried about misinterpreting it, or only hearing half truths from one side.

Anyway, it seems I'm done answering your questions.

Worry not! The best part about how the feedback system works, is that if anyone disagrees with my comment and the link I provided as proof, has the free will to ignore my remark. Anyone who doesn't think you acted unethically has the right to disregard my warning and participate in your auctions. Those that agree might think twice about participating. Its a win win, then no one who enters will complain when you introduce hidden terms or breach your own auction, because they'll know about it ahead of time, and still participate.

[Anduck]

Its a win win, then no one who enters will complain when you introduce hidden terms or breach your own auction, because they'll know about it ahead of time, and still participate.

This is the reason for your negative trust. You seriously, truly think that I might suddenly introduce hidden terms or breach my own auction? I've never changed my auction rules in any way.
This is one auction case, where I bid on my own auction, clearly and transparently, auction event from ~3 years ago, where I learned from the community feedback the auction standard of Bitcointalk doesn't include auctioneers bids. Since that auction, I've always held auctions without any complaints.

He, SaltySpitoon, obviously doesn't know and refuses to educate himself about common auction standards of the world, dismissing expert opinions as "some wordpress page". Facts go against his prejudice. Sees the action of auctioneer bidding as scamming, even though it's a common practice around the world, even in the States. Wrecking accounts trust score based on things like that tells me about severe bird-brained logic, as obviously prejudice and refusal to learn controls the person's choices.

I don't get involved in he said she said cases.

It's not a "he said she said" case. There's no ambiguity. It was a blackmail/threatening attempt of "you either remove your rating or I red-rate and wreck your account". Of course Vod said the words making the threat, making it a "he said she said" case? Bird brains at work again.

If I'm selling a car worth $20,000 and the bid only gets up to $10,000. I can't just yell, I bid 1 billion dollars! To save me from having to sell the car.

It works exactly like that with reserve auctions. One doesn't need to sell the item to the highest bidder unless the auction is without reserve, or the reserve is known and met. It doesn't matter what your opinion or prejudice is. Facts are facts, but apparently prejudice and opinions override facts in your logic. My auction did not state "no reserve" or "with reserve". At least in the U.S. law, auctions are by default "with reserve". It's about the auction standard how it is, too. All in all, your rating to me shows your poor judgement.


Let's hope that theymos removes DT list. It only brings sorrow to people.

[Coinifyx]

From what I see Vod is only doing good activities for this community he has busted a multitude of scammers in the loan marketplace

I don't think he had any bad intentions when doing this he has nothing to gain from it

[LFC_Bitcoin]

From what I see Vod is only doing good activities for this community he has busted a multitude of scammers in the loan marketplace

I don't think he had any bad intentions when doing this he has nothing to gain from it

Mostly, the only people who complain about Vod are scammers who are caught with their pants down. He’s one of the most trusted members on here. You don’t have such a great trust rating as he has is if you’re anything other than a fantastic asset to the community.

[BillionChaze]

The whole point of conducting a sale via public/closed auctions are to bring its highest value possible through transparency.


Auctioneers act as an agent for the transaction and required to uphold its integrity of the sale if not why bother selling in an auction whereby you could just run tenders or many other methods of sale.


In live auctions,  we have this thing called proxy bidding or even retract of sale if a certain price does not meet the seller's price expectation as long as the hammer hasn't gone down but it has to be made clear on the t&c prior all bidding sessions conducted by announcing it before an auction commence,  putting up the t&c on the parameters of the auction hall as well as the contract given to the bidder once the hammer goes down and sale is concluded.


While the legality varies between states and countries, ethically differs from perspective the common ground should be Transparency.  


Based on the importance of having integrity of conducting a fair and transparent sale via public auction,  coming from a licensed auctioneer doing it for the past 16 years take it with a grain of salt as you've mentioned auctions are conducted commonly this way in your home country I personally do feel it is unethical or borderline grey area for an auction to be conducted in your manner.


It would have potentially took a turn if the auctioneer has made it clear prior auctioning that the auctioneer reserves the final right to retract the sale if a certain price is not met before the hammer goes down or in this case before end time.


We conduct a minimum of 4 auctions a month and the majority of our bidders are regulars,  we are legally required to read out the t&c every single time and we treat every bidder like it is their first time bidding and honour every bid once the hammer goes down even when there was a negligible announcement mistake on remarks because thats how important integrity is to an Auctioneer and the auction house.

[Anduck]

If theres anything I've learned from the flat earth guys, or the super religious, its that you can't have a rational discussion when you can't agree on a basis. If I spend a few hours of my time finding cases of where people have been arrested or fined for self bidding on Ebay, you'll say that Ebay is not the same as your case. If I point out that auction houses do self bid, but they are closed soon after, you'll find some excuse for that. If I try to approach by using the definition of a bid as a contract, you'll disagree by another basis that we won't be able to come to an agreement on. I'll just end up frustrated, so there is no point. If you don't see wrong as wrong in the same way that 99.9% of other people do, so be it.

Basis is that there are various auction standards in the world, no matter if you believe it or not, and it looks like you don't believe it.  This is what I argue to you. You disagree, mock me, and argue back (quite poorly). Auction expert that I linked is describing that auctioneer bidding on the item acts solely as a reserve auction. You're arguing that reserve auctions are unethical and scam, and that the source for that information is not to be trusted, but instead we should trust your vague "pages of legal documents", incompetency and prejudice? Also you can't even tell me who is getting scammed and how, what is the unethical/wrong thing etc. when auctioneer bids on the auction. This should tell something. Hint: poor judgement!

Also, as my quote shows, you're strawman-arguing against me, which is simply pathetic itself and also because you brought your DT1 position in to the play as well. You'll maybe understand years later why people don't go against you publicly, or even talk with you publicly. You've now shown to have quite bad judgement skills and logical skills of a bird. This is obvious to many, but I promise you hardly anyone will say it aloud to you. You can wonder why.

Also, the double standards in your behavior -- another view to illogical behavior: you feel that it's perfectly fine for someone to change auction rules and you feel that it's total scam for auctioneer to bid on his auction. I can argue you why changing auction rules mid-auction is untrustworthy and what sort of things can happen when that is done. You on the other hand obviously cannot argue why auctioneer bidding on the auction is untrustworthy. Maybe others understand this even when you don't.

I've made my position clear and you've made yours. I added some feedback of my own just so you don't need to worry about Vod anymore.

You're obviously rating me to wreck my account further, as you admit. Your position and my position are not equal, as you know. You're power tripping here quite heavily, or you have logical skills of a bird.


I hope theymos acts on the problems of DT and removes it completely.

[OgNasty]

First rule when you find yourself in a hole is to stop digging.  Please consider this line of thought.

What hole am I in?

Please stop digging.  I'm literally begging you now for your own good.  Maybe if you apologize to Salty, reduce your Vod feedback to neutral while leaving a reference to this thread, lock this thread, and allow some time to pass for cooler heads to prevail, you might have a chance at getting them to reduce their feedbacks to neutral as well.  I promise you that continuing to scream that everyone else is wrong with your fingers in your ears is not going to do you any good whatsoever. 

[Anduck]

if you apologize to Salty

What should I apologize for? For calling his logical skills bad? SaltySpitoon coming out of nowhere to red-rate me to wreck my account trust score, as he admitted ("now you don't need to worry about Vod"). His rating states that I don't honor my auctions. I've honored all auctions I've ever held. I've never scammed anyone. He is lying and is the one who should apologize to me.

reduce your Vod feedback to neutral

Why should I reduce my feedback to neutral? Vod blackmailed/threatened me, misuses the DT system to "solve" his personal problems with me (which wouldn't be problems at all if he didn't illogically misunderstand me in the first place), lies about me and so on, and is not seeking to clear any of this in any way. He is clearly incapable of using the trust system fairly, and so is SaltySpitoon. I would not trade with Vod due to dishonest behavior, and suggest everyone else to not trade with him either.

you might have a chance at getting them to reduce their feedbacks to neutral as well.

This is exactly why DT list should be removed completely. The view of peoples trust they in practice portray to people is not accurate, as you can see. This would only be solved by removing DT list.

I promise you that continuing to scream that everyone else is wrong with your fingers in your ears is not going to do you any good whatsoever.  

I agree this is a boring and annoying topic. I am not "screaming" that everyone else is wrong. It's sad how people have commented in this thread without even glancing at the sources, e.g. where Vod threatens me. They just apparently automatically side with Vod, because Vod has been "so good" for the forum so far etc. And I don't even disagree with that, Vod has done an alright job as I see it, but it in no way corrects his wrongdoing against me.

But again, this and other problems -- as you know DT has caused tons of problems and drama -- are only fixed by removing DT completely. It's absolutely unfair that some single opinion/person is capable of wrecking someones portrayed default view of trust for good. You, OgNasty, should know about these things too.

lock this thread

Good advice.

I hope that theymos removes DT list and lets trust system evolve and work as a true trust network. Authorities like the DT list members (as they in practice are for majority of the users) are only causing noise and drama, and their opinions very often do not portray a truthful view of persons trustworthiness. There should not be such DT thing at all, it should've been removed a long time ago when it started evolving this bad way. It's time to act on this.