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Author Topic: Trust system abuse / DT2 member Vod is provably dishonestly rating people  (Read 3387 times)
Anduck
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June 03, 2018, 09:14:21 PM
Merited by digaran (1)
 #1

Trust systems are always hard or impossible to do right. The default trust list system here makes things tough. At the very least, I think it would need some changes to how things are calculated and shown to people by default.

Currently, it's widely known that people are scared to say anything negative to people in the default trust list. It should never be like this. Some DT/DT2 members are redrate/negativetrust -happy, and can be said to abuse the position they have. This also shouldn't be like that. This affects majority of users: almost everyone is using default trust settings, meaning people trust DefaultTrust with the depth of 2.

Getting negative trust (and/or rating) from a DT1/DT2 member easily ruins account, or at the very least damages the general view of it. People generally treat others with red trust as untrustworthy, even though that may only be the result of some petty outburst by someone in the DT list. This happened to me, so I'm now being vocal about it. I used to have +48 green trust, now I have -1 orange trust. My business here has taken a hit due to this, especially when dealing with newer users.

What happened?
Shortly, I pissed off DT2 member called Vod. He was rude against me, called me a scammer and so on, so I red-rated him as I don't trust people who call me a scammer. Later he contacted me about it and told me that he doesn't see me as untrustworthy. But, he threatened to red-rate me unless I changed my rating. I didn't obey, so he red-rated me. So I told him that I don't trust him and I guess he took it very personally leading to this shit storm. Remember, most people are afraid to tell these people negative things about them. In this whole chain of events, which was forced to be public, Vod made illogical and contradictory statements to justify wrecking my account. He also blatantly and provably lies in his reasoning in his rating towards me, and in his public comments about this. But what can I or anyone really do about it? People are afraid to call him out. And people don't want to get into a shit storm.
More info about this in thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3869593.0 and message https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3869593.msg38658847#msg38658847 with a try of a summary of the events.

I know I am of course not the only one being abused like this. There are plenty of examples. I am escalating this further, because this appears to me as clear abuse and I think I could do (or get people to do) something about it. Of course anyone technically can rate anyone how they like, even based on complete bullshit, but community/someone who can should act on it. Even when the abuser has done good deeds most of the times, like Vod.

All in all, I think these sort of things have considerably negative impact on the forum. Community, be it staff or regular users, should act on it. I know it's a messy job.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4415201.msg39447493#msg39447493

Edit (Aug 1):
Changed topic from Trust system abuse to Trust system abuse / DT2 member Vod is provably dishonestly rating people

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June 03, 2018, 09:35:50 PM
 #2

What happened?
Shortly, I pissed off DT2 member called Vod. He was rude against me, called me a scammer and so on, so I red-rated him as I don't trust people who call me a scammer. Later he contacted me about it and told me that he doesn't see me as untrustworthy. But, he threatened to red-rate me unless I changed my rating. I didn't obey, so he red-rated me.
You don't trust people who call you a scammer ? Similarly, maybe he doesn't trust people who don't trust him ? I don't really see any issue trust abuse with his ratings.I mean he just did what he was suppose to ? Like he even gave you a warning and you ignored it ? The problem is not the rating, it's the account that is coming from.I'm sure had it been from someone not on the DT you would ignore it ? Honestly, if I was you, I would think before leaving  a negative feedback to a DT member.

So I told him that I don't trust him and I guess he took it very personally leading to this shit storm.
If someone tells me that they don;t trust me I'm sure as hell I wouldn't trust them either.I still don't get it how do you see this as a trust abuse ?

Remember, most people are afraid to tell these people negative things about them.
That's not the case.For instance, if I call The Pharmacist a Asian Hating turd don't think he will give me a negative feedback and use his DT powers ? That would be a trust abuse lol

(* no offence to you Pharmacist you know I like you)

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June 03, 2018, 09:47:01 PM
 #3

You got red trust because you bid on your own bidding thread? Right...

If that is the only case yes your "red trust” is very unfair. @vod misused his powers clearly.

You did not use an alt account or any thing there is was no bad motives behind your bid. He gave you red trust because he did not like it, this is unfair.

Your own bid means you want to sell above 0.72BTC. And every participant knew it’s you... this does not count as scamming.

I’m with you on this @vod should take back red trust.


Yes I agree that bidding on your own bidding thread (is it right or wrong) can be discussed, but giving someone red trust because of this is unfair.
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June 03, 2018, 09:54:13 PM
 #4

You got red trust because you bid on your own bidding thread? Right...
If that is the only case yes your "red trust” is very unfair. @vod misused his powers clearly.
How bidding on your own auction is a fair behaviour ? Did you even read the thread ? I'm pretty sure you have no idea what powers or misuse mean.Do you even know what does auction mean ?

You did not use an alt account or any thing there is was no bad motives behind your bid. He gave you red trust because he did not like it, this is unfair.
That's the entire point of the trust system.If I don't like the way you did something, I will find you untrustworthy and leave you a feedback.

You own bid means you want to sell above 0.72BTC. And every participant knew it’s you... this does not count as scamming.

I’m with you on this @vod should take back red trust.
Regardless of the bidding issue.You should have the sense of reality that is,Vod would give two shits about what you think considering his long history of giving appropriate feedback.

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June 03, 2018, 09:56:32 PM
 #5

Unfortunately the administration has been very much hands off on trust disputes as of recently. This has been the case for a good several years now.

This has resulted in a very small number of people having an outsized amount of power within the forum economy, and very little discourse as to if any disputed trust rating is appropriate or not. Often conversations about trust ratings start and end with "~he doesn't trust you therefore the rating is legit~".

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June 03, 2018, 10:04:59 PM
 #6

What happened?
Shortly, I pissed off DT2 member called Vod. He was rude against me, called me a scammer and so on, so I red-rated him as I don't trust people who call me a scammer. Later he contacted me about it and told me that he doesn't see me as untrustworthy. But, he threatened to red-rate me unless I changed my rating. I didn't obey, so he red-rated me.
You don't trust people who call you a scammer ? Similarly, maybe he doesn't trust people who don't trust him ? I don't really see any issue trust abuse with his ratings.I mean he just did what he was suppose to ? Like he even gave you a warning and you ignored it ? The problem is not the rating, it's the account that is coming from.I'm sure had it been from someone not on the DT you would ignore it ? Honestly, if I was you, I would think before leaving  a negative feedback to a DT member.

He told me he doesn't think I did anything untrustworthy. And got pissed when I didn't want to change my rating. Resulted in him red-rating me. He gave me a warning? Sure, you mean when he threatened me?

Of course if it was not from DT member, and therefore not affecting my account, I would've not gone to these lengths about this. I've been vocal about abusing that has happened towards others, which has previously *almost* resulted in me getting a wrecked account.

Quote
Honestly, if I was you, I would think before leaving  a negative feedback to a DT member.

This particular DT member acted disrespectfully towards me, in public. He gave me all the reasons to not trust him in any trades I would do with him. I don't fear rating him red. Regardless, I were open to drop my rating as I hadn't been trading with Vod anyway. But when he started threatening me, it was obvious that I shouldn't trust him. In any case it shouldn't end up in this sort of abuse. It turns to be abuse when it affects the general view of an account and is based on outburst, lies and retaliation.

So I told him that I don't trust him and I guess he took it very personally leading to this shit storm.
If someone tells me that they don;t trust me I'm sure as hell I wouldn't trust them either.I still don't get it how do you see this as a trust abuse ?

Remember, most people are afraid to tell these people negative things about them.
That's not the case.For instance, if I call The Pharmacist a Asian Hating turd don't think he will give me a negative feedback and use his DT powers ? That would be a trust abuse lol

(* no offence to you Pharmacist you know I like you)

Read what happened, please. As I mentioned, of course people can rate each other how they like. That doesn't mean abusing couldn't happen or isn't happening.

You got red trust because you bid on your own bidding thread? Right...

If that is the only case yes your "red trust” is very unfair. @vod misused his powers clearly.

You did not use an alt account or any thing there is was no bad motives behind your bid. He gave you red trust because he did not like it, this is unfair.

You own bid means you want to sell above 0.72BTC. And every participant knew it’s you... this does not count as scamming.

I’m with you on this @vod should take back red trust.

I did not get red trust because of bidding in the auction I held. Vod told me he saw nothing untrustworthy in that. (Although later when his outburst happened, he changed his stance on this to suit his reasoning.)

You got red trust because you bid on your own bidding thread? Right...
If that is the only case yes your "red trust” is very unfair. @vod misused his powers clearly.
How bidding on your own auction is a fair behaviour ? Did you even read the thread ? I'm pretty sure you have no idea what powers or misuse mean.Do you even know what does auction mean ?

Think about this for a while. Auction rules are same for all. There are different auction types in the world. It's common for auctioneer to bid on the auctions in my country. It's very uncommon in these forums. Anyway this has been hashed elsewhere, e.g.: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2535142.msg25936463#msg25936463

Anyway that is offtopic for this thread. Vod told me he doesn't see my actions regarding that auction as untrustworthy.

You did not use an alt account or any thing there is was no bad motives behind your bid. He gave you red trust because he did not like it, this is unfair.
That's the entire point of the trust system.If I don't like the way you did something, I will find you untrustworthy and leave you a feedback.

You own bid means you want to sell above 0.72BTC. And every participant knew it’s you... this does not count as scamming.

I’m with you on this @vod should take back red trust.
Regardless of the bidding issue.You should have the sense of reality that is,Vod would give two shits about what you think considering his long history of giving appropriate feedback.

I've been around for 7 years. I know Vod has been here also for a long time, and I acknowledge that he has had a significant positive effect on the forum. I know most of his ratings are good. This thread is not about that.

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June 03, 2018, 10:05:11 PM
 #7

Digaran, where are you? I am waiting for you to talk about abuse.  Roll Eyes

Anduck, so you think it is abuse because you find vod untrustworthy but you don't want vod to see you as untrustworthy? Your account is ruined how exactly? You don't participate in signature campaigns, and if you want to trade with someone, there shouldn't be any issues. People have different opinions and some DT members are DT members because of their opinions. If you want their opinions to be biased, then they shouldn't be on DT.
Also people can leave you a negative rating because they find you untrustworthy, and that is not abuse. An abuse would be when you have something they want and they want you to give it to them, blackmail sort of.

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June 03, 2018, 10:08:47 PM
 #8

Digaran, where are you?
Probably begging for 1 merit

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June 03, 2018, 10:13:40 PM
 #9

Regardless of the bidding issue.You should have the sense of reality that is,Vod would give two shits about what you think considering his long history of giving appropriate feedback.
I’m not here to discuss Vod’s history... what I felt I said it... you don’t like... ignore and move on...

Giving him a red trust because he try to bid on his own bidding is unfair.
 
And if you think trust system is for your personal likes and dislikes you are so wrong my friend. Trust system was added to highlight “scammers” and help community to avoid trades with such accounts.

Tell me if OP tried to scam someone?
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June 03, 2018, 10:15:53 PM
 #10

Anduck, so you think it is abuse because you find vod untrustworthy but you don't want vod to see you as untrustworthy?

His rating affects the general view of my account while mine towards him doesn't. Also, please read the sources. Also, Vod bases his rating towards me on publicly verifiable bullshit, if that matters.

Your account is ruined how exactly?

My account is now seen as untrustworthy. This is effective in trading boards of these forums. It has no real effect when doing business with people I've done business before, or old-timers in general, but it has a significant effect when doing business with newer people in the scene.

You don't participate in signature campaigns, and if you want to trade with someone, there shouldn't be any issues. People have different opinions and some DT members are DT members because of their opinions. If you want their opinions to be biased, then they shouldn't be on DT.
Also people can leave you a negative rating because they find you untrustworthy, and that is not abuse. An abuse would be when you have something they want and they want you to give it to them, blackmail sort of.

I was threatened, and the rating itself lies about me, and is effectively result of me not doing what Vod asked me to do. In addition to all the worse things, he threatened to red-rate me unless I changed my rating. Read the sources linked in the first post for more information.

Regardless of the bidding issue.You should have the sense of reality that is,Vod would give two shits about what you think considering his long history of giving appropriate feedback.
I’m not here to discuss Vod’s history... what I felt I said it... you don’t like... ignore and move on...

Giving him a red trust because he try to bid on his own bidding is unfair.
 
And if you think trust system is for your personal likes and dislikes you are so wrong my friend. Trust system was added to highlight “scammers” and help community to avoid trades with such accounts.

Tell me if OP tried to scam someone?

DT members indeed have additional responsibilities like that.

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June 03, 2018, 10:17:30 PM
 #11

I've seen this issue before, but anyone could say anything online it is a common practice way back cypherpunk days probably it didn't matter what I say in this thread but getting involve in an unnatural behavior for bidding on your auction is quite unpleasant to the eyes of others thus I deem to resolve the issue you need to have a confrontation with Vod that's why you created this thread but somehow I think I've read this sort of issue before and it didn't bring any good agreement.

Lastly yes bidding on your auction is not against the rules however I think you need to start the auction first on your bid so ppl will know that you are participating in the auction not saving the last bell.
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June 03, 2018, 10:17:44 PM
 #12

Tell me if OP tried to scam someone?
Neither did digaran - Check out his trust page and maybe you will get a fair idea of how trust system works https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=806776

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June 03, 2018, 10:22:21 PM
 #13

I just finished reading...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3869593.0 <=== User Vod abusing DT position (petty red-rating with provable lies as a reason)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3869593.msg38658847#msg38658847 <===Re: User Vod abusing default trust list position

I will try to stay as much neutral as I can, I do not want to take any prior knowledge about what vod has done previously or doing currently.

So the root of the case is...

vod gave you a redTrust because you were bidding on your own auction.
Do you think morally it's right to bid on your own action?

You shouldn’t be bidding on your own auction if you don’t disclose this possibility ahead of time.
I've already learned that is the norm in these forums.
-This is an excuse mate.

In your conversation with vod an honest confession might change the whole situation instead you made a choice to claim yourself innocent. You dragged this into you now you are suffering for it.

Is it too hard to confess a mistake especially when you know you are not morally right?


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June 03, 2018, 10:24:16 PM
 #14

Neither did digaran - Check out his trust page and maybe you will get a fair idea of how trust system works https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=806776
He’s a special case Smiley
Btw I think his trust case is unfortunate too  Cool

Man your negative trust is so unfortunate!!!
I’m rather new here but I see you got great sense of humor... your sarcasm skills are too damn high... lower it a bit so people can digest.
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June 03, 2018, 10:45:15 PM
 #15

I just finished reading...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3869593.0 <=== User Vod abusing DT position (petty red-rating with provable lies as a reason)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3869593.msg38658847#msg38658847 <===Re: User Vod abusing default trust list position

I doubt that.

I will try to stay as much neutral as I can, I do not want to take any prior knowledge about what vod has done previously or doing currently.

So the root of the case is...

vod gave you a redTrust because you were bidding on your own auction.
Do you think morally it's right to bid on your own action?

You shouldn’t be bidding on your own auction if you don’t disclose this possibility ahead of time.
I've already learned that is the norm in these forums.
-This is an excuse mate.

In your conversation with vod an honest confession might change the whole situation instead you made a choice to claim yourself innocent. You dragged this into you now you are suffering for it.

Is it too hard to confess a mistake especially when you know you are not morally right?

Vod stated: "I decided what you did wasn't untrustworthy", regarding the auction. This is clear all over the reputation thread you said you read.

The auction in question is not really related as you can see. It's just a tool used by Vod, as there's not real "untrustworthy" stuff he could find about me. Anyway, I'll address it a bit,
If you feel that auctioneer bidding on auction is unfair or wrong in any way, that's just your opinion. Auction rules are same for all, including the auctioneer. Auction styles and rules vary around the world and the Internet. Something uncommon here is common elsewhere. Auctioneers often bid in their auctions in my country. Elsewhere maybe differently. I have already told people what I think about this in here. FWIW, the auction happened over two years ago and I've done bitcointalk-common auctions since.

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June 03, 2018, 11:19:36 PM
 #16

DT members are moderators of trust system. they say that trust is not moderated but DT members are moderating it individually without following any common rule, guideline.

Default trust ratings shouldn't rely on individual opinions, that would be the definition of moderating the trust system directly. administration has given the absolute power to DT members and they wouldn't care if DT members are using their power as a personal tool to dictate their own agendas.

What would happen to a DT2 member if they bully others and if they abuse their power? nothing would happen not unless somebody in a position of power steps in. but somebody in a position of power is not doing anything about it, so DT2 members would think that what they are doing is right.
They will continue to operate like this and nobody would stop them, because nobody actually cares.

About this case: Vod should tag you for bidding on your own auction and not because he doesn't trust you. did you bid on your auction with your main account? who does that anyways?


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June 03, 2018, 11:35:19 PM
 #17

His rating affects the general view of my account while mine towards him doesn't. Also, please read the sources. Also, Vod bases his rating towards me on publicly verifiable bullshit, if that matters.
I read the sources,I think Vod was sort of right on leaving you a negative feedback on the first place because you bid on your auction. He gave you the benefit of the doubt and changed the tag,but when he changed it back again,is something I don't expect that someone like Vod would do. No one should be forced to add or remove their ratings just because the other party changed it,be it for a DT member or a non-DT member. But the trust system is not for saying comments like " I don't trust you",it is for "This person is a scammer or I highly believe that this person is a scammer". Abuse is not the right word here,misuse is. Abuse only works if someone gains something from the other,in form of blackmail. So both the parties here are misusing the system.
My account is now seen as untrustworthy. This is effective in trading boards of these forums. It has no real effect when doing business with people I've done business before, or old-timers in general, but it has a significant effect when doing business with newer people in the scene.
If the newer people don't understand the situation,you can always use escrow. Bidding in an auction != Scamming. If people don't know that,better stay away.
I was threatened, and the rating itself lies about me, and is effectively result of me not doing what Vod asked me to do. In addition to all the worse things, he threatened to red-rate me unless I changed my rating. Read the sources linked in the first post for more information.
DT members shouldn't threaten non-DT members. No one should threaten anyone for a rating. Is this for real?
I can't believe people do so much shit about a damn trust rating. For the love of god,move on. If you don't trust someone,don't. Nobody cares enough to give a fuck,unless you're rich Roll Eyes.

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June 03, 2018, 11:45:49 PM
 #18

DT members shouldn't threaten non-DT members. No one should threaten anyone for a rating. Is this for real?
I can't believe people do so much shit about a damn trust rating. For the love of god,move on. If you don't trust someone,don't. Nobody cares enough to give a fuck,unless you're rich Roll Eyes.

Yes it is for real. It's all in the sources linked. I asked Vod whether we could just drop this shit, as he told me he doesn't see my actions as untrustworthy and I also do not need to have rating showing my distrust against Vod. I don't trust him, but it's up to me if I announce it to the world. My guess is that pissed him off (when I said I don't trust him regardless). You may be right that better term is misuse. It's semantics, though.

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June 03, 2018, 11:50:50 PM
 #19

Yes it is for real. It's all in the sources linked. I asked Vod whether we could just drop this shit, as he told me he doesn't see my actions as untrustworthy and I also do not need to have rating showing my distrust against Vod. I don't trust him, but it's up to me if I announce it to the world. My guess is that pissed him off (when I said I don't trust him regardless). You may be right that better term is misuse. It's semantics, though.
It was a rhetorical question,with intended sarcasm. Nevertheless,what might have pissed off Vod more,is that misunderstandings lead to further misunderstandings and now after you lit the fire(unintentionally maybe),you realize everything has gone. And sometimes people don't let go of their pride,so I guess you have to stay with the rating. Lips sealed

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June 03, 2018, 11:53:11 PM
 #20

I doubt that.
I read the first topic until this post. When I saw you said, "I've already learned that is the norm in these forums." then I did not bother to read further. The 2nd one was only limited to your post (this one).

Regarding self bidding: There are various ways to do auctions. The auctioner can bid on the item he's auctioning and it is not unfair (at least IMO.)
- You noticed that the viewers/bidders were unhappy by your action. If I was there you would see me angry too. I never experienced or even hard that you can bid on your own auction. It just does not make sense. You can set up a reserve price.

Can anyone help me to find the rule where it says bidding in own auction is ok in this forum? I tired finding it but no luck yet. Thanks in advance

If you feel that auctioneer bidding on auction is unfair or wrong in any way, that's just your opinion. Auction rules are same for all, including the auctioneer. Auction styles and rules vary around the world and the Internet. Something uncommon here is common elsewhere. Auctioneers often bid in their auctions in my country. Elsewhere maybe differently. I have already told people what I think about this in here. FWIW, the auction happened over two years ago and I've done bitcointalk-common auctions since.
What I am seeing is cultural difference if it is true that you can bid on your own auction. Like I said you would also find me angry if I was there and my common sense would say that you are doing illegal activities in your own auction. 

Vod stated: "I decided what you did wasn't untrustworthy", regarding the auction. This is clear all over the reputation thread you said you read.

The auction in question is not really related as you can see. It's just a tool used by Vod, as there's not real "untrustworthy" stuff he could find about me.
We would not see anything (that happened later) if you would not place a self bid in your auction.

I personally do not like the practice to leave red trust to someone as because s/he left you a red trust at the first place. The first person left you the red trust because in his/her judgment you DID something wrong but without acknowledging the wrong or a valid explanation, when you are responding with a red trust from you then obviously things will start getting harder and nasty. You are, "Eating the fruit of your lips". I am sorry mate.


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