[POLL] I'm Done!: Animal House 2

[Rassah]

Again, if you are having sexual relations with men you are sinning.  It's a sad example of cognitive distress that you are unable to come to terms with what I am telling you.  You are free to disagree and take the wrong interpretation if you wish, but you will not change what God is telling you.

Sadder still that you can not tell me in your own words WHY I am sinning. God told you have having sex with someone of the same sex as you was sinning? He told me just the opposite. Perhaps that "sin" only applied to you? Or do you have something more concrete?

It's troubling that you took I reply I made to someone else and applied it to yourself automatically.  It suggests your cognitive dissonance is again in action.  Why did you assume your own situation was comparable to rape or theft?

It's troubling that when you wanted to give other examples of sin besides homosexuality, your fist thoughts were rape and theft. Why did you think that homosexuality belongs in the same category? And if it doesn't, what other types of sin that don't actually cause any harm can you think of to compare to homosexuality? Is wearing cotton-polyester mix a good comparable sin? Is you talking in church? What about you touching anyone while you're on your period?

Frankly, I don't even remember the details of why Saul is so pissed at Jonathan.

I'm sorry if you don't like what the passage says, but it is what it is.  It doesn't matter how you would like to remember it.

What the passage says is EXACTLY what I have proposed it says: Saul is angry at Jonathan because in Saul's eyes whatever Jonathan did was shameful, the result of his perverted mother, and brought shame on his mother's nakedness (whatever that means). Why are you avoiding the actual statement of that passage, trying to explain it with "But it's his MOTHER who was naked" when that was beside the point? Why are you avoiding all of my other questions too?

You avoided the question, and, ironically, you were actually the one who simply repeated what was already being said there. So, let me bold it for you:
Why would Jonathan, upon meeting David for the fist time, give up his most prized possessions in a show of giving himself up to David's power? i.e. Those two never met before, and Jonathan just suddenly goes, "Oh, hi. Here's my stuff, and I'm giving my power over to you." Why? How are we supposed to understand his actions?

It must be very chaotic in your mind, as the truth tries to peak through and your perverted urges shut them down.   As I said, it is a transference of official position in respect of David's great victory over Goliath.  It is the respect of a soldier.  Had you actually read the bible, instead of just googling for quotes to support your perversion at random, you may have been aware of that story and why the people, even aside from Jonathan, had such respect for David's reputation.  

Fine, I'll concede you this one. Even though this passage happens AFTER David and Jonathan are back at Saul's house, and make a covenant with each other, I doubt anyone will budge. And for someone who is so quick to point out one's own piety and bible reading, you really don't strike me as someone who read it to understand it. It seems you just skimmed it for the words, and had someone else tell you what is meant, and which words are important.

Out of curiosity, just how much do you think this "perversion" or mine consumes me? By the way you talk to me, it seems as if you think my life, morning to dawn, is nothing but this homosex perverion.

[1713548879]

1713548879

[Rassah]

Jesus was not on this Earth to make rules, he was here to sacrifice himself for our sins. 

Did he sacrifice himself, or did he let others kill him?

[PinkiePie]

Sadder still that you can not tell me in your own words WHY I am sinning. God told you have having sex with someone of the same sex as you was sinning? He told me just the opposite. Perhaps that "sin" only applied to you? Or do you have something more concrete?

Any crackpot on the street can come up with a grilled cheese with Mary on it, but the word of God in the Bible is eternal.

It's troubling that when you wanted to give other examples of sin besides homosexuality, your fist thoughts were rape and theft.

Please restrain your anger and focus on the topics at hand.  I was listing things that are unquestionably wrong and yet make some people happy, not listing sins.  Why do you feel any mentions of rape and theft are about you?  I think getting this off your chest could be very helpful for you.

I have been a victim of rape, did some man do something like that to you?  If that is why you ended up as disturbed as you are now, I can understand, but it's no excuse.  You have to be responsible for your own actions.

What the passage says is EXACTLY what I have proposed it says: Saul is angry at Jonathan because in Saul's eyes whatever Jonathan did was shameful, the result of his perverted mother, and brought shame on his mother's nakedness (whatever that means). Why are you avoiding the actual statement of that passage, trying to explain it with "But it's his MOTHER who was naked" when that was beside the point? Why are you avoiding all of my other questions too?

I don't think it's difficult to understand, how would you feel if your mother was naked in public?  It's a way to say Saul was ashamed.  There was no sexual content in the passage.  In siding against his King and father he had brought shame to the family, much like anyone who pledged loyalty to someone outside their family.

Fine, I'll concede you this one.

It's like it's been conceded that the sky is blue, I don't know what to tell you, read the actual book in context.  It's about two good friends and political machinations, it's not one of your pornographic animal movies.

[Revalin]

There was  very little for Jesus to say.  Homosexuality was forbidden in both the Old Testament and the New in plain text, historical revisionism is the only reason we even need to have the conversation.  Jesus was not on this Earth to make rules, he was here to sacrifice himself for our sins.

Along the way he did have a few things to say about morality and God's will.

The New Covenant is a fundamental restructuring that negates the Old Testament as literal law.  Indeed, this is the very foundation of Christianity that distinguishes it from Judaism.

We might as well be arguing about the justifications in the bible for murder, there are some situations that look wrong to modern eyes, but we cannot use them to ignore the plain language that forbids it.

The plain language also forbids eating shellfish, and specifies capital punishment for adultery and rebellious children.  Do you obey those mandates?

[PinkiePie]

We might as well be arguing about the justifications in the bible for murder

capital punishment for adultery and rebellious children. 

 

[Revalin]

It's not murder.  It's capital punishment for a specified crime.

Do you support it, or do you agree that something has changed so these literal, unambiguous laws no longer apply?

[Rassah]

Any crackpot on the street can come up with a grilled cheese with Mary on it, but the word of God in the Bible is eternal.

Eternal, maybe, but definitely not infallible, and definitely open to interpretation, as evidenced by the HUGE number of Christian sects. There are also tons of contradictions! (why did God add those in?)

Please restrain your anger and focus on the topics at hand.  I was listing things that are unquestionably wrong and yet make some people happy, not listing sins.  Why do you feel any mentions of rape and theft are about you?  I think getting this off your chest could be very helpful for you.

Apologies then. It's just that there are A LOT of people comparing homosexuality to incest, bestiality, rape, pedophilia, etc. and list the things you listed in the same group of sins as homosexuality.

I have been a victim of rape, did some man do something like that to you?  If that is why you ended up as disturbed as you are now, I can understand, but it's no excuse.  You have to be responsible for your own actions.

No, no one raped me, or molested me, and I don't believe you. I think that, MAYBE, someone loved you, tried to share something with you, which you consented to and enjoyed, but later you were told by someone else that it was horrible, it was rape, that you were actually really hurt and should feel hurt and ashamed, and maybe you fell into a victim mentality because of it. Regardless, being raped is not an excuse for thinking that sex is perverted and sinful. I remember you saying something about "because you think you're so and so, everyone else must be more sinful than you are?"

What the passage says is EXACTLY what I have proposed it says: Saul is angry at Jonathan because in Saul's eyes whatever Jonathan did was shameful, the result of his perverted mother, and brought shame on his mother's nakedness (whatever that means). Why are you avoiding the actual statement of that passage, trying to explain it with "But it's his MOTHER who was naked" when that was beside the point? Why are you avoiding all of my other questions too?

I don't think it's difficult to understand, how would you feel if your mother was naked in public?  It's a way to say Saul was ashamed.  There was no sexual content in the passage.  In siding against his King and father he had brought shame to the family, much like anyone who pledged loyalty to someone outside their family.

There are other ways to say it though. Saul could have simply said that Jonathan has brought shame to the family, and that he is disgusted by him. No reason to bring in perversion, or nakedness thing. Note that there is nothing in there about the mother being naked in public, either. You're the one reading into things and trying to fit them here. I've already pointed out that the shame of someone's nakedness is used often in the old testament to refer to sexual sins. Also, this passage is not proof that Jonathan and David were actually doing anything sexual; just that Saul was also making his own assumptions on the matter. But feel free to reject it though.

Fine, I'll concede you this one.

It's like it's been conceded that the sky is blue, I don't know what to tell you, read the actual book in context.  It's about two good friends and political machinations, it's not one of your pornographic animal movies.

You think it's two good friends, I think it's two people very much in love. Nice to know that your opinion of my opinion of two people being in love is the same as "pornographic animal movies." Do you not see how disgustingly twisted your mind is for turning claims of love into "pornographic" "perversion?" Even if you say you're "ok with platonic love," it's obvious you are not, and if you come across it you'll be making the same baseless perverted assumptions.

Anyway, backing up for a moment, that was one quote from the new testament you mentioned. One that you didn't bother to contest regarding the "men having sex with men" referring to male prostitutes. Is that really all the new testament has to say on a grave sin like homosexuality? And, again, what about lesbianism? ANYTHING in the bible saying that's a sin?

[PinkiePie]

Apologies then. It's just that there are A LOT of people comparing homosexuality to incest, bestiality, rape, pedophilia, etc. and list the things you listed in the same group of sins as homosexuality.

Again, go back and read, I did no such thing.  I specifically listed things nobody would argue with me are wrong, I clearly set them apart from the conversations in this thread to point out pleasure is not the same thing as morality.  Why is it you feel so strongly your own urges are the same as rape and pedophillia?

No, no one raped me, or molested me, and I don't believe you. I think that MAYBE, someone loved you, tried to share something with you, which you consented to and enjoyed, but later you were told by someone else that it was rape, and maybe fell into a victim mentality because of it.

You're disgusting, who tells a girl admitting she was raped, "Maybe you ENJOYED IT!  Maybe you CONSENTED but are too dumb to realize it!"  I'm more convinced than ever you are deeply disturbed, unfortunately I may not be able to reach you.

[Rassah]

Why is it you feel so strongly your own urges are the same as rape and pedophillia?

Cute, but no.

No, no one raped me, or molested me, and I don't believe you. I think that MAYBE, someone loved you, tried to share something with you, which you consented to and enjoyed, but later you were told by someone else that it was rape, and maybe fell into a victim mentality because of it.

You're disgusting, who tells a woman admitting she was raped, "Maybe you ENJOYED IT!  Maybe you CONSENTED!"  I'm more convinced than ever you are deeply disturbed, unfortunately I may not be able to reach you.

I said that your story sounds like a "Woes me! Please feel sorry for me!" lie, having been brought in at a rather strange and "convenient" time, and also that if it did happen to you, I wouldn't be surprised that you were hurt more by the people trying to explain what happened to you after the fact than by the actual "rapist," especially if that "rape" was done by the person because of whom you were sent to that camp.
If the rape was done by someone else, like your dad or priest, then I'm sorry, and you really shouldn't be listening to them about religion anyway.

[PinkiePie]

I said that your story sounds like a "Woes me! Please feel sorry for me!" lie

Yeah, lots of men say that, lots of police too, you misogynistic asshole.

http://www2.rwu.edu/studentlife/studentservices/counselingcenter/sexualassault/rapemyths.htm

1 in 4 college women have either been raped or suffered attempted rape.

Yeah, but I'm sure they are all a bunch of woe is me liars.  Or at least, there is some man or cop who will say so.

[Rassah]

I said that your story sounds like a "Woes me! Please feel sorry for me!" lie

Yeah, lots of men say that, lots of police too, you misogynistic asshole.

Ok, then why did you suddenly tell me you were raped? What was your point?

[PinkiePie]

I said that your story sounds like a "Woes me! Please feel sorry for me!" lie

Yeah, lots of men say that, lots of police too, you misogynistic asshole.

Ok, then why did you suddenly tell me you were raped? What was your point?

I was hoping sharing my pain might help you deal with yours, I didn't realize you were the type to trivialize sexual crime against women, but I should have known from your general pattern of sexual immorality.

[PinkiePie]

I think your damage may be beyond my ability to help.  You have too much anger and hatred for women inside you to turn away from your homosexual sin, it is clear now.  I will continue to pray for you, however, I may not be able to help you, but God still can.

[RandyFolds]

Why is it you feel so strongly your own urges are the same as rape and pedophillia?

Cute, but no.

No, no one raped me, or molested me, and I don't believe you. I think that MAYBE, someone loved you, tried to share something with you, which you consented to and enjoyed, but later you were told by someone else that it was rape, and maybe fell into a victim mentality because of it.

You're disgusting, who tells a woman admitting she was raped, "Maybe you ENJOYED IT!  Maybe you CONSENTED!"  I'm more convinced than ever you are deeply disturbed, unfortunately I may not be able to reach you.

I said that your story sounds like a "Woes me! Please feel sorry for me!" lie, having been brought in at a rather strange and "convenient" time, and also that if it did happen to you, I wouldn't be surprised that you were hurt more by the people trying to explain what happened to you after the fact than by the actual "rapist," especially if that "rape" was done by the person because of whom you were sent to that camp.
If the rape was done by someone else, like your dad or priest, then I'm sorry, and you really shouldn't be listening to them about religion anyway.

Wow man...the proper time to shut up would have been a while ago. Seriously...just...stop. Stop...you can make that choice.

[Rassah]

I feel I should explain before this blows too much out of proportion, so here's a reply I was going to make privately to someone else

Intentional or not, I think you just trolled this one out of the park.

Yes, I very well may have. Was thinking that this would be a rather awful troll hook, but if she WAS raped, she's ALSO not the first person with that claim I've come across. One rather disgusting person I know was raped when she was in her late teens, and is now totally emotionally screwed up about it, living off of SSI, weighing something like 350 pounds, and being an extreme drama queen. Any attempt to help her with her health, job, or anything else, comes back to "I was raped, I feel so sorry for myself, you and everyone else should too." That specific crutch is sad and sick, and in my view is more damaging than the rape itself was. There are also plenty of other people I've come across, who seem to lack any drive and have a "give me because I'm a victim and I deserve it" mentality, who use other crutches (such as injury or back pain) for their purpose. Perhaps I jumped to conclusions a bit too fast, when I saw Pinkie tell me that about herself as seemingly obvious attempt to make me feel sorry for her. Shit happens, and unless you tell me what you did to get over it, it doesn't work on me any more. However, her intention seems to have been "See, I was hurt too, just like you, so I understand what you're going through," so I've likely made an ass of myself with that one.
As for the comment about the "maybe's," that's actually probably as common as police and mysoginists denying that rape happened. Plenty of teens not even understanding the concept of the word, until someone else tells them how horrible whatever happened to them was, simply because it was sexual (who cares if they consented), forcing the feeling of horror and shame on them for the rest of their lives, and making them feel terrible about something that originally wasn't, in much the same way as churches convince gay kids that what they do or think is actually something horrible.
Heck, the idea that she and her friend did something and she thought it was perfectly fine, then after being discovered by her parents she was convinced by them and her church that what she did was sinful and horrible, but that it's ok and it's not her fault because she was simply taken advantage of and raped, is not that far fetched, is it?

[Rassah]

You have too much anger and hatred for women inside you to turn away from your homosexual sin, it is clear now.

I'm sure at this point, the fact that I was one of the few guys in my university's feminist club, that I marched in the women's righs marches a few times, that I see the fight for women's rights as being intrinsically connected to the fight for gay rights, or that I have been a staunch supporter of women's rights in general for most of my life (both financially and personally), won't really make much of a difference. Perhaps I do have too much anger and hatred, but just for religion, and am somewhat crewed up because of it  

[PinkiePie]

You have too much anger and hatred for women inside you to turn away from your homosexual sin, it is clear now.

I'm sure at this point, the fact that I was one of the few guys in my university's feminist club

You wouldn't be anymore, if they saw what you just did here, but I guess next you'll call me a nigger than tell me all about your black friends.

If I had one prayer, I'd pray for people who hate
Maybe I'm out of my mind ...or deep in my faith
A man grows old ...when his souls in pain
Only love can loosen that chain

But if I offer you grace, will it cause any change
And do I appear weak, if I calm my rage
I think of revenge, but will I become
The thing I despise, when a heart goes numb

I'll say a prayer, hoping it finds ...people who hate
I send it now, to heal the hearts ...of people who hate

If only one song ...could silence hate
And end all the war ...before its too late
If a cold mind ...could begin to feel
Then the fear in our world ...has a chance to heal

I'll say a prayer, knowing it finds ...people who hate
I send it now, to heal the hearts ...of people who hate
......pray for people who hate

All of our thoughts ...can set the stage
For the power of love ...is larger than rage
When we take revenge ...we will become
The hate we despise ...as our soul goes numb

I have One Prayer ...for the world to hear
It's a cry for mercy ...the last of our tears
Let hate dissolve ... let the past reveal
That love has shown us what is real

Angels above, quiet the pain ...in people who hate
I'm sending One Prayer, to heal the hearts ...in people who hate

One prayer.....Pray!

(May all be loved, may all be blessed, may all feel peace....pray for people who hate)

I'm sending love to people who hate
I must be out of my mind ...or deep in my faith

[logansryche]

For S&G, I reach over and pull out some popcorn just to prove to you it's safe. (It is safe, ain't it, Matthew?)

It's safe ^.^ although you might get addicted to the butter and salt lol.
I love butter and salt on my popcorn.

Hey, I've heard you moved on from incompetent business practices to outright scamming.  How's that working out for you?

Pretty good, want a gift card? lol

[Rassah]

You have too much anger and hatred for women inside you to turn away from your homosexual sin, it is clear now. 

I'm sure at this point, the fact that I was one of the few guys in my university's feminist club

You wouldn't be anymore, if they saw what you just did here, but I guess next you'll call me a nigger than tell me all about your black friends.

Only black friend I have is a feminist lesbian. Otherwise, no, I don't have black friends. I also think most of my feminist friends would despise you, too. One of the things they fight for is abortion rights, which you I am guessing are very much against. But an even bigger (the biggest?) thing they fight for is gender equality and against gender stereotyping. Religious people do A LOT of gender stereotyping, so they would likely be very cautious around someone as christian and pious as you.

[Rassah]

If I had one prayer, I'd pray for people who hate
...

Thanks for that. That was actually pretty nice. Sorry about getting angry, too.


Here's my favorite poem, one that I like to think I live by:

Curiosity

Alastair Reid

may have killed the cat; more likely
the cat was just unlucky, or else curious
to see what death was like, having no cause
to go on licking paws, or fathering
litter on litter of kittens, predictably.

Nevertheless, to be curious
is dangerous enough. To distrust
what is always said, what seems
to ask odd questions, interfere in dreams,
leave home, smell rats, have hunches
do not endear cats to those doggy circles
where well-smelt baskets, suitable wives, good lunches
are the order of things, and where prevails
much wagging of incurious heads and tails.

Face it. Curiosity
will not cause us to die–
only lack of it will.
Never to want to see
the other side of the hill
or that improbable country
where living is an idyll
(although a probable hell)
would kill us all.

Only the curious have, if they live, a tale
worth telling at all.

Dogs say cats love too much, are irresponsible,
are changeable, marry too many wives,
desert their children, chill all dinner tables
with tales of their nine lives.
Well, they are lucky. Let them be
nine-lived and contradictory,
curious enough to change, prepared to pay
the cat price, which is to die
and die again and again,
each time with no less pain.
A cat minority of one
is all that can be counted on
to tell the truth. And what cats have to tell
on each return from hell
is this: that dying is what the living do,
that dying is what the loving do,
and that dead dogs are those who do not know
that dying is what, to live, each has to do.