Lauda
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September 02, 2018, 08:39:46 AM |
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How long is it reasonable to wait? Another month? Another two months?
The refund has already been finished. ![Lips sealed](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/lipsrsealed.gif) Oh shit lol! Any thread or Telegram documentation on that? Yeah. This was the first post explaining the timeline; this was the second post containing all the batches.
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Quickseller
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September 02, 2018, 08:43:49 AM |
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How long is it reasonable to wait? Another month? Another two months?
The refund has already been finished. ![Lips sealed](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/lipsrsealed.gif) Oh shit lol! Any thread or Telegram documentation on that? Yeah. This was the first post explaining the timeline; this was the second post containing all the batches. Missing from that information is an accounting of funds released to various parties and the conversation from the car alts to bitcoin.
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WaffleMaster
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September 02, 2018, 09:35:38 AM |
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Very interesting. Both points seem reasonable. Refunds have been issued. There are no explanations of any escrow transactions. Here are a couple users talking about the starting price of the coin and the refund price.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. If we are somewhere near .0000933 then from my initial BTC investment only around 1 out of 6 would be returned.
Not sure where you get that? Initial rate was .0002036 BTC / NVST So it is a 46% refund against btc value. Now if you count the bcash fork it is a bit less. If someone invested in ETH, for every 1 ETH they sent they are getting the equivalent of 1.22 back. Not too bad for a consolation prize. Which would mean 45.8% refund as he stated ( .0000933 / .0002036 = .458 aka 45.8%). I was under the impression that 60% would be refunded based on previous statements made here... is that true? Not sure, I'm really not looking too deep into this but offering some speculation and questions. What % went to the escrows? Now despite the low refund percent, Bitcoin has rose to a huge level so the dollar amount of the refund is actually greater than the dollar amount that was used to originally buy the ICO. What would the gain have been if they never deposited money into the ICO? Does the refund mean everybody's reputation is 'cleared' from a scam or does a detailed analysis of the escrow wallet and all its debits and credits still need to be done? (probably a good idea either way) I find some interest in the "41.78678295 BTC will be set aside until a solution to this issue is found". Just some thought provoking questions. I and everybody else are working with incomplete information and no evidence from blockchain tracing has been put forth so the presumption would be innocent until proven guilty.
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Lauda
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September 02, 2018, 09:43:46 AM |
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There are no explanations of any escrow transactions.
This was never in the original agreement, thus there is no requirement for such. Which would mean 45.8% refund as he stated ( .0000933 / .0002036 = .458 aka 45.8%). I was under the impression that 60% would be refunded based on previous statements made here... is that true? Not sure, I'm really not looking too deep into this but offering some speculation and questions. What % went to the escrows?
It is ~60% of the funds, but not 60% of the original rate. I've already explained this several times; the initial ~3050 BTC number was a *balance snapshot*[1] to figure out a distribution rate. Now despite the low refund percent, Bitcoin has rose to a huge level so the dollar amount of the refund is actually greater than the dollar amount that was used to originally buy the ICO.
It's higher than it should be. I find some interest in the "41.78678295 BTC will be set aside until a solution to this issue is found".
There's nothing interesting about it. It was already explained: nemgun & co. stole the domain and database, thus the documentation is missing for the unallocated tokens. I and everybody else are working with incomplete information and no evidence from blockchain tracing has been put forth so the presumption would be innocent until proven guilty.
This doesn't work when the accuser is Quickseller.
[1] Theoretical total BTC balance based on conversation rates at the time of the snapshot.
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"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks" 😼 Bitcoin Core ( onion)
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WaffleMaster
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September 02, 2018, 09:52:58 AM Last edit: September 02, 2018, 10:07:15 AM by WaffleMaster |
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Yeah that's fine if there is no written requirement for the accounting of funds. I'd say that'd be a pretty annoying requirement personally. A big headache. When were the milestones hit and the funds sent to the CEO? 15% was the agreed amount, so I'm just curious if anybody knows when those milestones may have been hit. Sounds like 15%-15%-5% in terms of dev payment of milestones. The CTO declined all payments of his 15-15-5 I tracked back the original wallet, it appears the several thousands of Bitcoin moved multiple times, but I'm seeing this address as the original. https://www.blockchain.com/btc/address/3AiGej11G8jUXvEBPvQKPLiHXC7ruUCp1Z3,405 BTC total received. I'm no blockchain detective so I'm not sure what to make of this. Somebody smarter than me will have to make sense of it. I just clicked back on all the large fund transfers until I hit a huge wallet that appears to be the beginning of the ICO. There's like 11 pages of incoming BTC there. (edit: There's WAYYYYY more than 11 pages lol. 63 total pages.) Double edit: 60% of 3,405 = 2,043. 3,405 - 2,043 = 1,362... Any correlation between that and the "1,393.94415407 - 41.78678295 = 1352.15737112." refund amount? 1,393.94415407 - 41.78678295 = 1352.15737112. This represents a rate of 0.00009292961 BTC/NVST. Example ~ refund amounts:
I thought the CTO wasn't paid? ![Huh](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/huh.gif) ? ![Huh](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/huh.gif) uh.... help? Coincidence? I'm confused lmfao. It looks like the CTO's payment was actually taken out of the final number that was used as a refund...but everybody is saying he wasn't paid.
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Lauda
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September 02, 2018, 10:07:32 AM |
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When were the milestones hit and the funds sent to the CEO?
There is no exact date at which funds were sent (multiple times over smaller amounts). First milestone was unlocked post distribution; 2nd was late 2017. 15% was the agreed amount
No. 30% + 30%. The CTO declined all payments of his 15-15-5
Nemgun is no CTO; and he lied about his payments to the community. 3,405 BTC total received. I'm no blockchain detective so I'm not sure what to make of this. Somebody smarter than me will have to make sense of it.
If you have an address that received 1k coins, and you send it to yourself 4 more times it will show 5k BTC total received. The number of received coins on explorers are not a valid metric. I thought the CTO wasn't paid?
![Roll Eyes](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) ...but everybody is saying he wasn't paid.
If by everyone you mean his band of paid shills from discord, then yes indeed.
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"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks" 😼 Bitcoin Core ( onion)
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WaffleMaster
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September 02, 2018, 10:17:13 AM |
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If you have an address that received 1k coins, and you send it to yourself 4 more times it will show 5k BTC total received. The number of received coins on explorers are not a valid metric.
True, maybe that is definitely how it works. Then why wouldn't it be much larger if these 3 transactions of the address sending 1,200 BTC ( https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/3d664257ca058c13eb6695237a1c8b878490b877381ad04f1084163da999e739), then 1,689.44357589 ( https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/954f4cfcb971ec4501f3e1667440fe0215f852039720f8af5f23a2d624e3b858), then 1,497.22395444 BTC ( https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/4c304d4628a67a45d87c5babf46ada74c778a37826dd0f10f90ec88857e91666) all to itself not show up? Isn't that like 4,386 BTC sent to itself? And yet the blockchain says "Total Received 3,405.40731067 BTC"? I'm genuinely curious about this because if it counted sent bitcoin to itself, with those 3 huge transactions alone sent to itself, it would be over 4,000 Bitcoin easily. Am I getting something wrong lol. I must be reading this transaction shit wrong and causing undue stress. I'll give up and let the pros handle it ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif)
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Lauda
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September 02, 2018, 10:36:23 AM |
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If you have an address that received 1k coins, and you send it to yourself 4 more times it will show 5k BTC total received. The number of received coins on explorers are not a valid metric.
True, maybe that is definitely how it works. Then why wouldn't it be much larger if these 3 transactions of the address sending 1,200 BTC ( https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/3d664257ca058c13eb6695237a1c8b878490b877381ad04f1084163da999e739), then 1,689.44357589 ( https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/954f4cfcb971ec4501f3e1667440fe0215f852039720f8af5f23a2d624e3b858), then 1,497.22395444 BTC ( https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/4c304d4628a67a45d87c5babf46ada74c778a37826dd0f10f90ec88857e91666) all to itself not show up? Isn't that like 4,386 BTC sent to itself? And yet the blockchain says "Total Received 3,405.40731067 BTC"? I'm genuinely curious about this because if it counted sent bitcoin to itself, with those 3 huge transactions alone sent to itself, it would be over 4,000 Bitcoin easily. Am I getting something wrong lol. I must be reading this transaction shit wrong and causing undue stress. I'll give up and let the pros handle it ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) I believe it has something to do with the situation in which all inputs and all outputs are the same address. It shouldn't count that as a metric for 'spent' nor 'received'. Someone else might know the details of this without having to look into it. However, the fact that the 'received' metric on blockchain explorers is useless should be well known.
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"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks" 😼 Bitcoin Core ( onion)
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WaffleMaster
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September 02, 2018, 10:50:26 AM |
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If you have an address that received 1k coins, and you send it to yourself 4 more times it will show 5k BTC total received. The number of received coins on explorers are not a valid metric.
True, maybe that is definitely how it works. Then why wouldn't it be much larger if these 3 transactions of the address sending 1,200 BTC ( https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/3d664257ca058c13eb6695237a1c8b878490b877381ad04f1084163da999e739), then 1,689.44357589 ( https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/954f4cfcb971ec4501f3e1667440fe0215f852039720f8af5f23a2d624e3b858), then 1,497.22395444 BTC ( https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/4c304d4628a67a45d87c5babf46ada74c778a37826dd0f10f90ec88857e91666) all to itself not show up? Isn't that like 4,386 BTC sent to itself? And yet the blockchain says "Total Received 3,405.40731067 BTC"? I'm genuinely curious about this because if it counted sent bitcoin to itself, with those 3 huge transactions alone sent to itself, it would be over 4,000 Bitcoin easily. Am I getting something wrong lol. I must be reading this transaction shit wrong and causing undue stress. I'll give up and let the pros handle it ![Grin](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/grin.gif) I believe it has something to do with the situation in which all inputs and all outputs are the same address. It shouldn't count that as a metric for 'spent' nor 'received'. Someone else might know the details of this without having to look into it. However, the fact that the 'received' metric on blockchain explorers is useless should be well known. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around why a multisig escrow wallet would be sending the funds to multiple different addresses and then back to itself. 3AiGej11G8jUXvEBPvQKPLiHXC7ruUCp1Z ---> 3DkFekKmKXSnL1XmMfQSh2kukKzjr7X44Y https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/21e7f36e1d11fc4283792a9f46f13d1f41d4095dc2507e9335e6cf91fedb9d073DkFekKmKXSnL1XmMfQSh2kukKzjr7X44Y ---> 39iTdYPq899u1CVad9rKKQQPJHRVaP7MSo https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/388346e14b28d7862ef3182e5bdefd795f770c84ed27f4292280abfab1ecd9b939iTdYPq899u1CVad9rKKQQPJHRVaP7MSo ---> 3AiGej11G8jUXvEBPvQKPLiHXC7ruUCp1Z (ORIGINAL ADDRESS)https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/4c304d4628a67a45d87c5babf46ada74c778a37826dd0f10f90ec88857e91666That's just one example out of many, and none of it appears to fluff up the "received Bitcoin" number because it was all traced back to the original wallet. Which we've already seen would have a lot more received if it indeed counted those transactions.
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marlboroza
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September 02, 2018, 11:10:05 AM |
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~ Isn't that like 4,386 BTC sent to itself? And yet the blockchain says "Total Received 3,405.40731067 BTC"?
No, it is 1488 + 1689 + 100 + 100 + 100 = 3486 BTC (total received) while blockchain.info shows total received 3,405 BTC - my calculation is not correct calculation either, probably because not all funds were moved at some point. Or better, if you like, 100 + 100 + 100 - 1689 -100 - 100 + 1488 - 1497 = -1598, so approximately 1598 btc was in that address. Don't break your head too much, if you want correct calculation why it shows 3,405.4 BTC you will have to go trough all 3128 transactions. You can't just pick one which you like and ask questions.
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WaffleMaster
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September 02, 2018, 11:25:33 AM |
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~ Isn't that like 4,386 BTC sent to itself? And yet the blockchain says "Total Received 3,405.40731067 BTC"?
No, it is 1488 + 1689 + 100 + 100 + 100 = 3486 BTC (total received) while blockchain.info shows total received 3,405 BTC - my calculation is not correct calculation either, probably because not all funds were moved at some point. Or better, if you like, 100 + 100 + 100 - 1689 -100 - 100 + 1488 - 1497 = -1598, so approximately 1598 btc was in that address. Don't break your head too much, if you want correct calculation why it shows 3,405.4 BTC you will have to go trough all 3128 transactions. You can't just pick one which you like and ask questions. I see the multiple +100 BTC that you're talking about. Yeah my math and analysis is probably bad. I think this transaction ( https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/954f4cfcb971ec4501f3e1667440fe0215f852039720f8af5f23a2d624e3b858) is what I messed up about. That's probably not 1,689 BTC
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mdayonliner
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September 02, 2018, 11:36:28 AM |
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~
I am not an expert either however this is what I did.... I filtered the address with the Sent transactions https://www.blockchain.com/btc/address/3AiGej11G8jUXvEBPvQKPLiHXC7ruUCp1Z?filter=1Scroll down and... First sent was on 2017-07-01 19:06:18 Tx: https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/b478196f3a535f8a2a8a250ce1ebe97dabc97055bd1f2fd8798d7742185ad199Amount 16.04376017 BTC to 34QigSdFmqDNSdCjZs5sSDQYYewDGh5LLd If you trace the address then you will see Ultimately the fund comes back to the main address. I assume funds were sent to different addresses of the same wallet. So, total received = 3,405.40731067 - 16.04376017 = 3389.3635505 BTC2nd sent was on 2017-07-01 19:20:36 Tx: https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/ba568d7cf8c7ea025ad68b16960ac18cb23fc61abd0986ac7181c9d7a8fd02e8 Amount 0.57566755 BTC to 32DMGN7hiEG2gVYZt9gVVPgJTYhndx7GSv Again after tracing the address the conclusion is sent to different addresses of the same wallet. 3389.3635505 - 0.57566755 = 3388.78788295 BTC3rd sent was on 2017-07-01 19:31:44 Tx: https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/52b71cce22168c76c354ddbc17c9feb36439ef31ae8b0282e5a67a331bbe0c1dAmount 0.00228457 BTC to 3KA7s4Nqw1KvksUY2KtpmzCEdxkfjQ22bH and 149ZiYcFKsjcT1S1Ef4WwAihXQxXQds1YA I can not figure out the end of them so lets say they actually gone out. So, we still have: 3388.78788295 BTC4th sent was on 2017-07-01 20:33:40 Tx: https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/32cbb8f451c6129067fb40ac93628e8f6337c699c466a0336a6e5b9da0b38111Amount 0.42851301 BTC to 36UNCAdXYUditQoyKJKfwszafnkKFCcAwQ Eventually it came back to the same address 3388.78788295 - 0.42851301 = 3388.35936994 BTC5th: 0.18467903 BTC 6th: 0.05086859 BTC 7th: 0.04060566 BTC 8th: 0.05862002 BTC 9th: 0.0086241 BTC 10th: 0.03419528 BTC 11th: 0.00701132 BTC 12th: 0.00927396 BTC 13th: 0.01638622 BTC 14th: 0.01053424 BTC 15th: 0.00536235 BTC 16th: 0.00096287 BTC 17th: 0.00255258 BTC 18th: 0.00036839 BTC 19th: 0.01025788 BTC =================================== Total: 0.44030249 BTC 3388.35936994 - 0.44030249 = 3387.91906745 BTCAfter exploring 20th tx it seems 1,497.22395444 BTC came back to the same address. 3387.91906745 - 1497.22395444 = 1890.69511301 BTC21st tx eventually adds up to this tx. So, nothing to deduct. 22nd does the same. Again nothing to deduct. 23rd assuming it really gone out. 24th gone out as well. If you have an address that received 1k coins, and you send it to yourself 4 more times it will show 5k BTC total received. The number of received coins on explorers are not a valid metric.
So, if my manual checking is correct then the address (3AiGej11G8jUXvEBPvQKPLiHXC7ruUCp1Z) actually received 1890.69511301 (+/- 0.00228457) BTC in-total.
PS: Guys, since this is a manual checking, I could even miss some of the transactions while I was tracing. So, don't consider it as a solid calculation of the received coins.
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Be happy be at peace. Looking forward to BTC at $1M
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WaffleMaster
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September 02, 2018, 02:22:36 PM |
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So, if my manual checking is correct then the address (3AiGej11G8jUXvEBPvQKPLiHXC7ruUCp1Z) actually received 1890.69511301 (+/- 0.00228457) BTC in-total.
PS: Guys, since this is a manual checking, I could even miss some of the transactions while I was tracing. So, don't consider it as a solid calculation of the received coins.
Your method and number seems more accurate. I'll wait until other people smarter than me examine that wallet. Anybody can download a csv or xlxs spreadsheet file of the entire wallet on https://blockchain.info/export-history?active=3AiGej11G8jUXvEBPvQKPLiHXC7ruUCp1Z
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bill gator
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September 02, 2018, 03:20:07 PM |
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So, the refund has been completed and the amount distributed seems to make sense and correlate with what was expected to be distributed, is that right? Where is the issue at this point? The only issue I can see a reason for this remaining, is if there is indeed BTC missing from the pool or individuals that were entitled to a refund.
All I'm hearing though is that people want more accountability, but if all the funds agreed to be distributed are there and have been refunded then I'm failing to see where the issue is or why 3+ DT members are leaving this thread with negative reputation from one another. I know it's not even close to my call, but if I were any one of you I would remove the negative(s) I left due to this thread, because it's seemingly pedantic and does not set a good precedent in terms of how trust is used.
What is the accusation?
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bill gator
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September 02, 2018, 04:37:29 PM |
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That's not an accusation, that's a suggestion at best. I am operating with very limited knowledge of the situation, but from what I understand the transparency being requested and subsequently leveled as an accusation (somehow?) was never in the terms agreed to by the escrow(s) or the investor(s). There are two paths, either terms are being broken or they are not; if so, which terms? Is there any evidence to suggest that funds have been withheld or gone missing? That is the title of the thread, and I have seen nothing that suggests this. Is there reason to believe that the altcoin exchange rates/dates have been manipulated for them to pocket funds? I'm just trying to figure out exactly what the finger is being pointed at, and why. ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia0.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FVXxFEcDnNvxqU%2Fgiphy.gif&t=665&c=lBlpDXjrWJkE7w)
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Quickseller
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September 02, 2018, 05:04:20 PM |
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What is the accusation?
Transparency? The accusation is that a portion of the money being held in escrow was stolen or otherwise misappropriated
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bill gator
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September 02, 2018, 05:35:46 PM |
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The accusation is that a portion of the money being held in escrow was stolen or otherwise misappropriated
Forgive me, but what is the evidence for this accusation? If there is solid evidence to suggest this happened, then I would love to hear it. It would go a long way towards convincing more than just myself. So far though, I have just heard baseless speculation and it leaves me unable to come to any conclusion about the situation. If there was substantial evidence that would suggest money was stolen, then I agree that transparency beyond what was previously agreed to could be desirable; at least to get to the bottom of things, and dish out financial justice for those negatively affected.
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pugman
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September 02, 2018, 05:46:46 PM |
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The accusation is that a portion of the money being held in escrow was stolen or otherwise misappropriated
Forgive me, but what is the evidence for this accusation? If there is solid evidence to suggest this happened, then I would love to hear it. It would go a long way towards convincing more than just myself. So far though, I have just heard baseless speculation and it leaves me unable to come to any conclusion about the situation. If there was substantial evidence that would suggest money was stolen, then I agree that transparency beyond what was previously agreed to could be desirable; at least to get to the bottom of things, and dish out financial justice for those negatively affected. People couldn't understand how 3000 btc became less than 1500,after converting alts to btc and spending money on "development".
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bill gator
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September 02, 2018, 05:55:47 PM |
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I thought that even the 3,000 BTC amount was speculation. I'm clearly not helping solve anything and very likely missing vital chunks of information. I also thought the alts were forked and exchanged when the value was much more insignificant and that 60% was to be spent on development. I may have read through the entire thread, but my reading comprehension must be beyond salvageable.
I'll just bow this one out.
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suchmoon
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September 02, 2018, 06:30:45 PM |
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I thought that even the 3,000 BTC amount was speculation. I'm clearly not helping solve anything and very likely missing vital chunks of information. I also thought the alts were forked and exchanged when the value was much more insignificant and that 60% was to be spent on development. I may have read through the entire thread, but my reading comprehension must be beyond salvageable.
I'll just bow this one out.
3000+ was the valuation at the time of ICO, which the token distribution was based on. Actual exchange value was likely lower - perhaps in the 2700 BTC range but I can't say that I know the exact number. 30% was to be distributed to the development team immediately after the ICO (first milestone) and another 30% after the release of beta wallet (2nd milestone), leaving 40% in escrow. 1400 / 3100 is 45% and 1400 / 2700 is 52%, i.e. it passes a basic smell test: the refund covered more than the escrow was supposed to hold. The extra funds have been presumably gained from forks and the 2nd milestone not being completely distributed due to some internal disputes. At this point it would seem that whoever wants to accuse Lauda et al of wrongdoing should come up with evidence, not the other way round. Otherwise this could go on for years with random people claiming that the refund should have been 10 BTC or 100 BTC or 1000 BTC higher.
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