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Author Topic: Is the price slowly climbing?  (Read 22105 times)
S3052
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November 16, 2011, 07:24:55 PM
 #121

To Slush:

Thanks for shedding light on this. I was probably over simplifying it.

I have experience in a big company (many tens of thousands of employees), but not directly in the IT area.

What I really mean is that bitcoin lacks either a big company that focuses on it or having some kind of association that does
    • Marketing
    • PR
    • ER
    etc..


    This could have avoided a lot of biased press coverage as there is no PR work going on, no dedicated advertising of bitcoin as such.. etc.[/list]

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    slush
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    November 16, 2011, 07:31:18 PM
     #122

    This is becoming slightly OT, but fine, one more response from my side.

    Excuse me, but I was working on defending against attacks on financial institutions even before DDOS become a common word.

    Well, I agree, in 80' and the beginning of 90' DDoS was not a problem :-).

    Quote
    If you have long-lasting (hours or days) TCP/IP connections you can ignore most SYN packets early on the switch.

    Who told you that those attacks were SYN floods?

    Quote
    Long-lasting sessions also allow you to do filtering by origin IP address.

    Seems like some people still don't understand one thing; when you have 1Gbit pipe and 11Gbit traffic trying to pass that pipe, it WON'T WORK. Really. It does not depend on chosen protocol.

    Quote
    Today's DDOS defense business is so focused on the HTTP protocol that it completely forgot the basic lessons in inter-networking. Overuse of HTTP does rot the brain.

    But mining isn't B2B, it's client-server, with unknown parties on client side. Using HTTP have many other advantages.

    I'm not talking that everything is ideal in Bitcoin world, but we aren't group of total idiots.

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    November 16, 2011, 07:34:36 PM
     #123

    What I really mean is that bitcoin lacks either a big company that focuses on it or having some kind of association that does

    Yes, I definitely agree on this. I see that biggest problem of bitcoiners is that they're too much focused on technologies and they're ignoring anything else, like marketing. Unfortunately I'm developer too and I many times failed in attempts of doing non-IT stuff in my projects :-), so I'm trying to do what I can and I hope that somebody else good in marketing will join us soon :-).

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    November 16, 2011, 07:38:35 PM
     #124

    What I really mean is that bitcoin lacks either a big company that focuses on it or having some kind of association that does

    Yes, I definitely agree on this. I see that biggest problem of bitcoiners is that they're too much focused on technologies and they're ignoring anything else, like marketing. Unfortunately I'm developer too and I many times failed in attempts of doing non-IT stuff in my projects :-), so I'm trying to do what I can and I hope that somebody else good in marketing will join us soon :-).

    Great, so we are 100% aligned. This is what I meant.

    I am quite experienced in marketing but currently lack the time to spend more time on it...

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    jimbobway
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    November 16, 2011, 08:00:32 PM
     #125

    Why? Because there is no organizational structure, no clear goals, no clear and united strategies, no clear leadership, no clear decision making.

    With all respect to you, you're probably not a developer and you probably didn't work for for large company with tens of thousands employees and thousands of people in IT department. There is NOT a clear strategy in such companies, because of their internal politics games and changes in structure.

    Quote
    The bitcoin project is the best example of this theory.

    I cannot express how much I diagree with you! Bitcoin is the right oposite of typical opensource project. There is clear leadership, clear structure and responsibility, which is very rare in opensource projects. Of course it isn't ideal, but after 13 years of commercial experience in IT I see it as normal. There is also pretty good agreement between independent parties like pool owners, which are basicaly competitors and have only small reason to cooperate.

    Please don't mix development in bitcoin core/protocol and development of other related projects, like mining pools (getwork interface, LP, alternative clients). It's completely different story, but it's good there IS some progress.

    I would have to agree with slush on this one.  This open source project is pretty organized compared to the many other thousands of open source projects out there.  Organization and structure is slowing coming into fruition with BIPs, leadership (Gavin), release candidates, GIT, etc.  I would say the organization is comparable to Linux and BitTorrent development.

    As for marketing bitcoin has a lot of publicity both good and bad but it has been in the lime light more than most open source projects.  It's been featured on Slashdot numerous times.  If you compare bitcoin and PayPal it is night and day in terms of marketing, so yes I agree with S3052 on this.  I think most everyone wants to help out with their own ideas, but there is not really one central big marketing push.  For example, what if we all chipped in for one super bowl ad?

    In the end market forces will determine if bitcoin will succeed and not advertising.  Bitcoin, in my opinion, has so many unique properties for it not to succeed.  If it really is cheaper and faster to make transactions, if it's possible to make transactions "anonymous", if it's better than other alternatives then it will grow.  I think for me it is a question of how fast it can grow.

    I've pretty much devoted most of my time to marketing bitcoin with my blog and not trying to make money on it.  Sometimes I wonder if I should start being selfish (no offense) and start building a site or trading bitcoins on the side.

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    2112
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    November 16, 2011, 09:33:58 PM
     #126

    But mining isn't B2B, it's client-server, with unknown parties on client side. Using HTTP have many other advantages.

    I'm not talking that everything is ideal in Bitcoin world, but we aren't group of total idiots.
    Your insistence on HTTP with long polling is the perfect example of the bunker mentality and obsession with reinventing the wheels prevailing at the top of the Bitcoin pyramid.

    That and 3 years now with not even a single entity with an audited accounts (even pro-forma) is the reason why the Bitcoin implementation has to change before it can become successful.

    It isn't "weak investor hands" that need to shaken off. It is fly-by-night opportunists that will stifle the progress until shaken off.

    Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
    Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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    November 18, 2011, 05:11:47 PM
     #127

    offtopic
    BadBear
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    November 18, 2011, 06:03:22 PM
     #128

    Well back on topic since we're being oppressed  Wink

    The price is not slowly climbing, but it is stabilizing a bit.  The cycle continues. 

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    Dan The Man
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    November 18, 2011, 06:13:26 PM
     #129

    How do you guys not see the history and the cycle? It happens every single effing month. The price crashes by ~20 to 50%, people panic and say Btcoin is dead, It stays down for about a week then the price rises, and people all say that this is the turning point. Eventually the price falls in line with the same straight (log) line of slow decline that it has been on since the middle of the summer and everyone declares that Bitcoin has stabilized. Then it happens again. It happened first in June, it happened in July, it happened in August, it happened in September, it happened in October, and now it's happening in November yet everyone is surprised every month.

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    November 18, 2011, 06:14:30 PM
     #130

    Excuse me, but I was working on defending against attacks on financial institutions even before DDOS become a common word.  If you have long-lasting (hours or days) TCP/IP connections you can ignore most SYN packets early on the switch. 

    So how exactly does that help you when the DDOS not only overwhelms you allocated bandwidth but the ISP entire pipe and thus the hosting provide just null routes you?  You can't ignore packets that never get to you.

    Can we agree one should at least be informed on the type and scope of the DDOS attacks that large mining pools were facing before they offer completely useless "advice"?
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    Gerald Davis


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    November 18, 2011, 06:15:19 PM
     #131

    How do you guys not see the history and the cycle? It happens every single effing month. The price crashes by ~20 to 50%, people panic and say Btcoin is dead, It stays down for about a week then the price rises, and people all say that this is the turning point. Eventually the price falls in line with the same straight (log) line of slow decline that it has been on since the middle of the summer and everyone declares that Bitcoin has stabilized. Then it happens again. It happened first in June, it happened in July, it happened in August, it happened in September, it happened in October, and now it's happening in November yet everyone is surprised every month.

    That why I am waiting to buy in at -$100.   The chart shows it.  In about 2 years people will pay me $100 to take a Bitcoin off their hands. 
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    November 18, 2011, 06:17:36 PM
     #132

    That why I am waiting to buy in at -$100.   The chart shows it.  In about 2 years people will pay me $100 to take a Bitcoin off their hands. 

    :-D

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    November 18, 2011, 06:18:53 PM
     #133

    where does -100 go on the log chart

    BadBear
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    November 18, 2011, 06:23:05 PM
     #134

    where does -100 go on the log chart
    It goes UP!

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    2112
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    November 18, 2011, 06:26:34 PM
     #135

    So how exactly does that help you when the DDOS not only overwhelms you allocated bandwidth but the ISP entire pipe and thus the hosting provide just null routes you?  You can't ignore packets that never get to you.
    I work with providers who understand the difference between "null-route" and "policy-based null-route".

    Can we agree one should at least be informed on the type and scope of the DDOS attacks that large mining pools were facing before they offer completely useless "advice"?
    Absolutely. I'm not itching for a place in the Bitcoin Bunker. The weather outside is too gorgeous.

    Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
    Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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    November 18, 2011, 06:42:11 PM
     #136

    Absolutely. I'm not itching for a place in the Bitcoin Bunker. The weather outside is too gorgeous.

    If you have any viable proposal how to improve anything (namely pools to be more ddos resilient), feel free to open new thread for it. Or provide your own pool which will resist DDoS attacks; I'm sure you'll find an audience for this. So far your comments aren't constructive.

    Btw you really think that market price is affected by chosen pool protocols? Like changing protocol from json-based to something proprietary will move price in any direction? I really doubt it.

    Quote
    "null-route" and "policy-based null-route"

    You must be blind, otherwise you'll see that price of capable firewalls and network infrastructure to doing such things are many-times over total income from running pools. That's why I was arguing that even paypal with 2.2bilion USD in revenue failed with handling DDoS attacks.

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    November 18, 2011, 07:20:27 PM
     #137

    Absolutely. I'm not itching for a place in the Bitcoin Bunker. The weather outside is too gorgeous.

    If you have any viable proposal how to improve anything (namely pools to be more ddos resilient), feel free to open new thread for it. Or provide your own pool which will resist DDoS attacks; I'm sure you'll find an audience for this. So far your comments aren't constructive.

    I don't think anyone would resist using a more DDoS resistant system. Where is this "bunker mentality" accusation coming from? Do I have to drop everything and implement your proposal? On the other hand I would gladly criticize it, support you while building it, either donate or pay for your services, etc. Shortage of resourceful developers is the only problem that I can identify here. This is off-topic, so it would be better to move the topic if further discussion is needed. Smiley

    Also, no, price isn't slowly climbing, it's just procrastinating.
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    November 18, 2011, 07:45:55 PM
     #138

    Like changing protocol from json-based to something proprietary will move price in any direction? I really doubt it.
    Only inside the bunker FIX protocol and Zero MQ are called "something proprietary". (edited to add 0MQ).
    You must be blind, otherwise you'll see that price of capable firewalls and network infrastructure to doing such things are many-times over total income from running pools. That's why I was arguing that even paypal with 2.2bilion USD in revenue failed with handling DDoS attacks.
    It isn't how much money you spend. It is how you cooperate with the NOC personnel before, during and after a network event.

    Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
    Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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    November 18, 2011, 08:04:01 PM
     #139

    Only inside the bunker FIX protocol is called "something proprietary".

    Firstly, I was not talking about FIX, only you're. Then, please can you be so kind and explain, how FIX solve problems which we have? I'm not satiric, I'm asking for real - because I really don't see how this is solving problem which we have. Feel free to open new thread to not be offtopic here.

    And the last - can you be so kind and stop saying those bullshits about bunker mentality? It's only leading me to the point that you're the trolling and your real motivation isn't to improve anything, only demonstrating that *you* know *we* are doing everything bad.

    Quote
    It isn't how much money you spend. It is how you cooperate with the NOC personnel before, during and after a network event.

    Ok, previous data center kicked me off because of attacks overloading their network. Me cooperating with them better probably don't change the fact that DDoS was over their capacity. I don't know how current data center will handle those attacks, I hope they'll handle it better. However I really doubt that there is any provider offering such filtering services for reasonable price. If you know any, tell me; I tried to find anything and obviously I failed at this point.

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    November 19, 2011, 07:10:05 AM
     #140

    It seems the manipulator wants cheap coins and the price to fall under 2. Look at that bidwalls! It will be very hard to go under 2

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