The difference between science and religion

[BADecker]

Are you equally torn up about the millions of animals killed in terror every day to feed humanity or the plants ripped from the ground and consumed to feed those animals?

You completely dodged the point. It would also have been equally trivial for an omnipotent god to create a human that did not require to eat any living thing for sustenance.

But God did it the way He did because of the enjoyment to be found in doing things, with a wide variety of things available to do. God made some living things to be eaten, and to be filled with joy and ecstasy when they are eaten... and joy for the eaters, as well.

Consider. A plant is a much lower life form than a human. A plant will never become anywhere as great or as capable as a human. But the plant will become great like a human if a human eats the plant.



Consider Matthew 13:30:

Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.

Read the whole chapter to get the setting of the parable this passage is taken from - https://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/13.htm.

The point is "then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." What happens to wheat that is gathered into a barn? People grind it into flower, bake bread, and eat it. Those of us who are saved are going to be absorbed into God... into greatness that we can barely understand anything about at all... even though the pain of grinding in this life isn't always fun. Those who are weeds will be collected, tied and burned.

Take your pick. You still have time to become one with God. Change your way, and believe in Jesus-salvation.

[BADecker]

But you of all people know that God created things perfect, and that it was mankind voluntarily and knowingly eating the fruit in the Garden that started the chain of destruction among people.

So because Adam ate a fruit, God created an insect that burrows in to the eyes of millions of children and makes them go blind.

Your God is a lunatic.

Simply because you don't want to accept the greatness God is giving you in the universe, you would turn the idea of God into lunacy.

God made perfection. He placed His power into perfection. Mankind used the power of God to turn the perfection into evil. Such ability of mankind was the greatness which God gave them. The inertia of the power of God is what mankind used to bring evil.

God turned it around. God made a choice for people. Believe in Jesus and be saved into a new universe in the resurrection. Freedom to use God's power is still here for people. They can still freely aim for destruction, like you are doing. But, now, we also have freedom to accept Jesus-salvation.

How long does anybody live? How long does that painfully sick person live? The strongest of us - those who live in their pains and weaknesses longer than 100 years - still die. Life is short compared with eternity that will follow in the resurrection.

Your choice is to accept Jesus-salvation, and live in eternal joy in the new heavens and the new earth God is creating, or to be burned forever in the destruction of this one. Turn to accept Jesus salvation while you still have a chance.

[akosipepot]

Clear, obvious difference. Science = fact + evidence. Religion = fantasy + stupidity, gullibility, desperation.

Now we just need to wait on BADecker showing up to tell you why you didn't mean what you said, and that you actually meant what he wants you to mean, because an online dictionary says so.

Frankly on this thread I have not seen much understanding either of the nature of science or religion. Although as you point out, the noise to signal ratio may be so high as to make it impossible.

I don't understand why we even question this, or better said why would anyone try to put science and religion in one pot; they just don't go together.
Religion is for the stupid, there is no such thing, it's all in your heads. However, science is real and provable; it cures people.

[BADecker]

Did your God create the flesh eating bacteria?  Yes or No please.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrotizing_fasciitis

God does everything. He does it at the request of people. He does it according to the results He wants to set in place.

The point is this. Originally there was no destruction. The devil and the first people brought destruction into play. God didn't really want any destruction, but His love pushed Him to obey their requests. However, God knows how to manipulate destruction far better than anyone else. The thing He is doing is destroying destruction.

All people die. They are essentially destroyed out of this life. When the destruction of people is done, God will destroy this universe, and resurrect His believers into a new universe that doesn't have destruction.

The unbelievers will be resurrected to be destroyed with this universe, which will take forever. If you don't turn and believe, you will have caused your own destruction.

[Moloch]

[BADecker]

Did your God create the flesh eating bacteria?  Yes or No please.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necrotizing_fasciitis

God does everything. ...

So he is responsible for inflicting pain and suffering?  Is he mental?

Remember the gist of what I said. God does what we ask Him, even though He does it His own way. That is why we have bad things and problem things. We asked for the wrong things.

What are you asking for when you reject Jesus-salvation - since Jesus-salvation is the only salvation that exists. When you reject, you are asking for destruction in the dissolution of this corrupt universe. So, when God gives you what you ask for, He is just being a Nice Guy and giving you something you couldn't get for yourself if you didn't ask for it.

[ojanamon]

If you took all the religions in the world and destroyed them, in 1000 years there would be entirely new religions, completely different from the old religions...

If you took all the science in the world and destroyed it... in 1000 years there would be EXACTLY THE SAME SCIENCE

Mathematics is not something invented by humans, it is discovered by humans... mathematics is the same in any language, on any planet... 1 + 1 = 2 is a provable concept and does not change based on societal norms or which deities they currently worship

Newton and Leibniz are credited with the co-discovery of calculus... they did not invent it, they both discovered it at the same time... math/science is universal, religion is not

Science and religion are two very important aspects of every human’s life. Science and religion are subjects which can be discussed extensively and still would be unfinished in the end. However, we can try to understand their differences in a very general and simplified way.

Religion:
Religion, by many people, is considered as an absolute faith, an absolute knowledge about the universe, nature, humans, and their belief in their own gods. This is a very limiting expression of what religion is. Religion is actually a collection of beliefs and systems. It includes different belief systems, cultural systems, and worldviews.
Religion developed in separate parts of the world as different beliefs, different morals, different ethics, and different lifestyles evolved. People surrendered themselves to their gods; they used religion to explain the meaning of life, the origin of life, and basic human nature and laws binding them together through religion. There are many religions in the world. It has been observed that some religions emphasize more on faith while others on what they practice. Some emphasize on spirituality and personal experiences while others emphasize on rituals observed by a particular community.

Science:
Science is a study which collects, organizes, and proves or disproves the knowledge that has been collected through analysis. It studies about nature, its evolution, its forces, and different phenomenon taking place in nature with respect to each other.
For a very long time, “Science” and “Philosophy” were considered interchangeable. But after the 17th century, “philosophy” and “natural philosophy” or “natural science,” as it is called today, started being considered as different concepts. Science is, in modern times, considered “physical science” and “natural science,” or a study of chemistry, physics, biology, and geology. Natural science deals with studying the natural phenomena.

[Kertmu]

For every evil act, there is a possible benevolent act that can undo its harm (if only the technology or wisdom was available).

So what you are saying, is for every evil thing your God chose to create*, there is some technological advancement that we are yet to make that will undo its harm. So basically, science will fix the evil mess your God left behind? Got it.


*Evil your God created for no good reason, by the way. He could quite easily have created a universe that doesn't include (as a tiny example):
1 - Cancer in children, causing pain, suffering and often death
2 - A parasitic worm that burrows out through children's eyeballs and makes them go blind
3 - Children being transmitted HIV from their mothers during birth

If you assume a god did create this universe, he/she/it is clearly monstrous, and deserves no respect or worship whatsoever.

Mothers consciously go to the birth of a child with HIV, knowingly condemning him to such a life.

It's the fault of mothers!

[CoinCube]

So he is also deaf.  I have asked you to ask him to post on this forum with no avail.

How about all you religious freaks ask him to eliminate the flesh eating bacteria?

He will not answer because he does not exist. lol.

Humm in a single post you managed to:

1) Demand others personally ask God to manifest before you.
2) Insist God eliminate a living species from the planet at your request.
3) Proclaim that God not does not exist.
4) Call believers of God freaks.
5) Break into laughter presumably at your own wit.

I don't see much point in further discussion. You clearly have made up your mind and show no interest in reflection or exploring the topic in a non superficial manner.

I will bow out of this thread and leave it to those with an interest in this flavor of discourse.

[Lostchickens102]

If you took all the religions in the world and destroyed them, in 1000 years there would be entirely new religions, completely different from the old religions...

If you took all the science in the world and destroyed it... in 1000 years there would be EXACTLY THE SAME SCIENCE

Mathematics is not something invented by humans, it is discovered by humans... mathematics is the same in any language, on any planet... 1 + 1 = 2 is a provable concept and does not change based on societal norms or which deities they currently worship

Newton and Leibniz are credited with the co-discovery of calculus... they did not invent it, they both discovered it at the same time... math/science is universal, religion is not

Science and religion are two different things that can be used to prove each other. The universe being so wide is so hard to understand. All of what we have known might change in an instant. We will never know what is next until we experienced it. Religion may seem to be a bit straightforward without much to consider about it factually.  While science may just be used to study about religion.

[BADecker]

So he is also deaf.  I have asked you to ask him to post on this forum with no avail.

How about all you religious freaks ask him to eliminate the flesh eating bacteria?

He will not answer because he does not exist. lol.

Humm in a single post you managed to:

1) Demand others personally ask God to manifest before you.
2) Insist God eliminate a living species from the planet at your request.
3) Proclaim that God not does not exist.
4) Call believers of God freaks.
5) Break into laughter presumably at your own wit.

I don't see much point in further discussion. You clearly have made up your mind and show no interest in reflection or exploring the topic in a non superficial manner.

I will bow out of this thread and leave it to those with an interest in this flavor of discourse.

You are still here?

Did God create the flesh eating bacteria? Yes or no?

I bet you will dodge to answer this question.

God is so loving that He does what people request. People requested that God convert an aspect of nature into flesh eating bacteria. So, He did it for them.

God didn't create flesh eating bacteria. He converted something else into flesh eating bacteria as people asked.

God is 100% almighty.

[o_e_l_e_o]

God is so loving that He does what people request. People requested that God convert an aspect of nature into flesh eating bacteria. So, He did it for them.

So your god created flesh eating bacteria because someone asked for it, but ignores the millions of people who ask to be cured?

Your god is a lunatic.

[CoinCube]

Humm in a single post you managed to:

1) Demand others personally ask God to manifest before you.
2) Insist God eliminate a living species from the planet at your request.
3) Proclaim that God not does not exist.
4) Call believers of God freaks.
5) Break into laughter presumably at your own wit.

I don't see much point in further discussion. You clearly have made up your mind and show no interest in reflection or exploring the topic in a non superficial manner.

I will bow out of this thread and leave it to those with an interest in this flavor of discourse.

You are still here?

Did God create the flesh eating bacteria? Yes or no?

I bet you will dodge to answer this question.

God created everything including bacteria. He also created something far more evil then bacteria.

God created mankind the only creation on Earth that purposefully and freely chooses evil with full knowledge of his actions.

God created a mankind so morally warped that many individuals choose deny evil actually exists or ignore it in favor of expediency.

Why does God tolerate the most fallen of his creations to exist? Why does he not snuff us all out like you want to do to your bacteria? Perhaps it's because we can grow and with time and effort rectify ourselves.

Here is a song for you. It's about a cruel God that lets three innocent people die in a horrible car wreck. Or something like that.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cP8lCapcqwM

[CoinCube]

Are you sure?  I thought he loves people.  Why is he purposely killing us?
...

He does. That is why he is saving us inspite of ourselves.

Everybody dies. That is inevitable. The only variable is exactly how that death occurs.

The only offer of life after death on the table is through God and it requires an act of faith.

[CoinCube]

The whole system is just overly complicated if the primary purpose of the creation was a specific member of the Ape family to worship and believe in the creator. You would have to be an idiot to design something like this if you just wanted obedient primates who would believe in you.

If I was God, I would just...

Who said anything about obedient primates being the primary purpose of creation?

Why would he create life in the first place? What would be the purpose?

This is a very deep question and it goes far beyond the scope of this thread.

If you have a genuine interest in this topic the best answer I have come across is the following book.

Way of God: Derech Hashem by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/087306769X/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1/159-3751462-6767111?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=NM9R7T16A9G2147WGMJX&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687722&pf_rd_i=1598264672

It is an older classic 18th century religious book. It is very logical and is set out in parts that are divided into a few chapters. The parts are:
1. Fundamentals, covering The Creator, Man, Human Responsibility.
2. How Providence Works.
3. The Soul, Inspiration and Prophecy,.
4. Serving God, Love and Fear of God, Prayer.

There is a class in Seattle that went through this book chapter by chapter taught by Mark Spiro. Audio recordings of that class are available for free here.

http://www.livingjudaism.com/the-way-of-god.html

Both Moshe Chaim Luzzatto and Mark Spiro approach the issue from the Jewish tradition but I think anyone interested in God or religion will find it worthwhile. I did and I am not Jewish.

[af_newbie]

The whole system is just overly complicated if the primary purpose of the creation was a specific member of the Ape family to worship and believe in the creator. You would have to be an idiot to design something like this if you just wanted obedient primates who would believe in you.

If I was God, I would just...

Who said anything about obedient primates being the primary purpose of creation?

Genesis.

All scriptures are preoccupied with obedience and a special purpose of man.
 

Why would he create life in the first place? What would be the purpose?

This is a very deep question and it goes far beyond the scope of this thread.

Not really.  Life was not created. Our universe, our chemistry and physics are pure lottery.  Nature tries things via processes called evolution and emergence.

How our solar system, Earth, and life on it came about is by pure lottery, trial and error.  
Things that work, continue to work, things that have some impediment, get destroyed and/or die.

Both of us might be breathing the oxygen atoms that Julius Cesar or Hitler breathed.  That coffee or tea you had this morning might have water molecules that went through Napoleon's kidney and urine.  The atoms in your body were created in some supernova somewhere, they will be returned to Sun and then end up in the universe somewhere once Sun explodes.

The fact that we are here is also pure chance.  We could have been wiped out by asteroid or nuclear war, and cockroaches could have become the dominant species.

Homo Sapiens are not special.  Do not fool yourself into thinking that.  Earth is not our planet.  It belongs to the universe, like countless other planets.

The way we are evolving, AI will replace us in few hundred years.  Universe will continue for another 20 billion years or so, then it will probably suffer a crunch and another big bang will result, with different physics and chemistry, maybe even different space time equivalent.

If you have a genuine interest in this topic the best answer I have come across is the following book.

Way of God: Derech Hashem by Moshe Chaim Luzzatto.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/087306769X/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1/159-3751462-6767111?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_r=NM9R7T16A9G2147WGMJX&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=1944687722&pf_rd_i=1598264672

It is an older classic 18th century religious book. It is very logical and is set out in parts that are divided into a few chapters. The parts are:
1. Fundamentals, covering The Creator, Man, Human Responsibility.
2. How Providence Works.
3. The Soul, Inspiration and Prophecy,.
4. Serving God, Love and Fear of God, Prayer.

There is a class in Seattle that went through this book chapter by chapter taught by Mark Spiro. Audio recordings of that class are available for free here.

http://www.livingjudaism.com/the-way-of-god.html

Both Moshe Chaim Luzzatto and Mark Spiro approach the issue from the Jewish tradition but I think anyone interested in God or religion will find it worthwhile. I did and I am not Jewish.

LOL.  It is like offering a pack of cigarettes to someone who quit smoking 30 years ago.  No thanks.

[Bitrio]

If you took all the religions in the world and destroyed them, in 1000 years there would be entirely new religions, completely different from the old religions...

If you took all the science in the world and destroyed it... in 1000 years there would be EXACTLY THE SAME SCIENCE

Mathematics is not something invented by humans, it is discovered by humans... mathematics is the same in any language, on any planet... 1 + 1 = 2 is a provable concept and does not change based on societal norms or which deities they currently worship

Newton and Leibniz are credited with the co-discovery of calculus... they did not invent it, they both discovered it at the same time... math/science is universal, religion is not

Science is based on discovering and proving, religion is based on believing - there're no proofs there and it doesn't need them.

[Cannerald]

If you took all the religions in the world and destroyed them, in 1000 years there would be entirely new religions, completely different from the old religions...

If you took all the science in the world and destroyed it... in 1000 years there would be EXACTLY THE SAME SCIENCE

Mathematics is not something invented by humans, it is discovered by humans... mathematics is the same in any language, on any planet... 1 + 1 = 2 is a provable concept and does not change based on societal norms or which deities they currently worship

Newton and Leibniz are credited with the co-discovery of calculus... they did not invent it, they both discovered it at the same time... math/science is universal, religion is not

Science is based on discovering and proving, religion is based on believing - there're no proofs there and it doesn't need them.

There is a saying that we as humans should just judge things we saw, felt, heard, smelled or so.
So who has ever saw god, who has ever heard god nobody right? The same things can be said about our big bang, nobody saw it...

In the end no one can ever proof things to 100% we either have faith in something we call god or we believe in the big bang and the whole precess behind it.

[CoinCube]

LOL.  It is like offering a pack of cigarettes to someone who quit smoking 30 years ago.  No thanks.

Actually you have it backwards what I am doing it's much more akin to trying to talk a 30 year smoker into quitting.
I would point to the 20+ studies I have highlighted over the last few years in the Health and Religion thread to back that up.

We agree on a lot of your points but not the assumptions at the heart of your "faith".

I agree that nature tries things via processes called evolution and emergence.
I agree that Earth is one planet in a universe of countless other planets and their are likely many others very similar to it.
I agree that the the prospects of a long term future for homo sapien biological life appear quite grim.

But I am not a believer in your nihilistic faith so we part ways when you go into those core doctrines.

You cannot prove our the existence of our universe is a pure lottery this is doctrine.
You cannot prove the fact that we are here is pure chance. This is faith.
You cannot prove that we are not valuable or special this is a part of your nihilistic religion.
 
All differences aside, however, we do agree on one final point.

We agree that:
Things that work, continue to work, and things that have some impediment, get destroyed and die.

Unfortunately I appear to lack the necessary eloquence to show you that faith in God is the most important of the "Things that work".

[af_newbie]

LOL.  It is like offering a pack of cigarettes to someone who quit smoking 30 years ago.  No thanks.

...
You cannot prove our the existence of our universe is a pure lottery this is doctrine.

We cannot collect the evidence outside of our universe.  However, quantum fluctuations could have jump started our initial inflation.

You cannot prove the fact that we are here is pure chance. This is faith.

There is more evidence that it is than that it is not.

You cannot prove that we are not valuable or special this is a part of your nihilistic religion.

We are as special as other mammals, fish or any other living organism.
All life is special.  We are different in one respect.  We are good at story telling (myths, religious dogmas etc).
Myths is what united us early on in our human history and allowed for greater cooperation between large hordes of
hunters and gatherers. That is the only reason why we are at the top of the food chain.  Cooperation and socialization.

Unfortunately I appear to lack the necessary eloquence to show you that faith in God is the most important of the "Things that work".

Give me your best example of when God intervened to make "things that work".  I fail to see any "hand of God" in this universe.