Dark Enlightenment

[r0ach]

And HFCS is cheaper than sugar because of the government farm bill corn subsidies. Products with HFCS are sweeter and cheaper than products made with cane sugar.

I've tried some of those "retro" drinks that contain real sugar instead of corn syrup and they tasted worse.  Not sure if they did a shitty job on them or if the corn syrup ones actually do taste better ...

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[vokain]

And HFCS is cheaper than sugar because of the government farm bill corn subsidies. Products with HFCS are sweeter and cheaper than products made with cane sugar.

I've tried some of those "retro" drinks that contain real sugar instead of corn syrup and they tasted worse.  Not sure if they did a shitty job on them or if the corn syrup ones actually do taste better ...

Retro Mountain Dew is awful. Mexican (cane sugar) Coke I like.

[arielbit]

And HFCS is cheaper than sugar because of the government farm bill corn subsidies. Products with HFCS are sweeter and cheaper than products made with cane sugar.

I've tried some of those "retro" drinks that contain real sugar instead of corn syrup and they tasted worse.  Not sure if they did a shitty job on them or if the corn syrup ones actually do taste better ...

it is not HFCS i'm worried about..it is the Sodium cyclamate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_cyclamate
http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/304081/lifestyle/food/ban-on-artificial-sweetener-known-as-magic-sugar-lifted-by-fda
http://panlasangpinoy.com/2010/03/17/the-real-magic-behind-magic-sugar/

[iamnotback]

It has always been my working thesis that none (let's say very few) of us can know the future.  It is too complex...

For one thing, there is A REASON the majority of large human settlements through history have been bordering the ocean.  If the crops go bad or if there's some type of scarcity issue, people just ratchet up the fishing.  There will be no global "TEOTWAWKI".

Sorry guys but you are incorrect. Stage #5 is not just one of many possible outcomes, it is the ONLY possible outcome. And the totalitarianism will be global w.r.t. to all things tangible and physical (including precious metals!), thus the only release valve frontier will be decentralization network technology. See the problem with your idyllic and naive fishing plan, is that some power will be preventing you from fishing as TSHTF, because the masses are going to be demanding that the resources are shared equally (which will morph into rationing+eugenics) and the chaos is going to dictate that there is fighting over control of all strategic resources. Remember the masses are not armed (especially outside of the USA) and for example the coasts in the USA are leftists controlled States, e.g. California, Washington and the north-east seaboard. China has ample military to occupy the West coast of the USA and prop up the leftists. The fish food supply would be critical if the conservative interior of the country has shut off supply of food to the coasts. Shutting down trade with the world and access to electronics and other technology can cripple the interior of the USA. An essential ingredient is have an interior that is steadfast on resisting international cooperation and the rise of China, which is Trump is the leading edge of right now. China will see itself as leading the "free" world to international harmony by defeating the renegade white supremacists in the USA. It is very obvious why Rothschild used his influence over Wikileaks and media in the USA to install Trump (also so the conservatives will eat the blame for the global collapse caused by socialism).

The socialism doesn't just die overnight. It dies a painful death of self-destructive totalitarianism. Haven't you guys learned anything from the studying the history of the collapse of Germany or Rome.

If you want to understand why the entropy of the top-down ordered outcome is so low and thus so predictable, refer to the Petri dish analogy from my seminal essay:

Understand Everything Fundamentally <--- published in 2011, also here.

Also you have to factor in that China and Russia don't have the socialism and pension debts problem that the West has (their debts can be written off as their demographics and unfunded social liabilities are not yet a huge inertia so their downturn can bottom in 2020 whereas the West will continue to disintegrate even after 2032); thus as China is rebalancing their economy from the Industrial Age exports to the Knowledge Age service industry and consumption (see upthread links to Michael Pettis' blogs), they will displace the West, become the new financial center of the world, and be very strong. Thus the totalitarianism isn't going to abate, because on the heels of the disintegration of the West, China's and Russia's Technocracy form of oligarchy control is rising to a NWO. After Rothschilds' succeeds in dividing-and-conquering Europe and the USA, then he will send Chinese troops into the USA and Russian troops into Europe to complete the NWO enslavement. You aren't going to have any respite. The only release valve is going to be decentralization network technology. The Barbarians are the gates and in another couple to few of decades they will be in your living room. Your silly tangible assets are going to be pet rocks.

What Rothschilds is doing right now is building a short dollar vortex of epic pain, so the world will hate the concept of a reserve currency controlled by any one nation. So the world will acceded to an international cooperative SDR reserve unit (which of course Rothshilds will control with the international central bank).

there are too many variables out there, too many "Swans", for me to find it useful in a practical way.

Then all planning is useless.

Of course it is nonsense that we are entirely incapable of understanding human transformation and doing some planning.

Just throwing your hands in the air and saying everything is random is not at all in touch with reality. This is what pushes you back to gold, because you only trust the past. If everything was entirely random, then we couldn't even be sure if we can breathe if we open the door. The reason we have great confidence that there is oxygen in the next room is because it is a very low entropy result to maintain a vacuum.

By understanding entropy, we can indeed understand the progression of society. CoinCube's model is all about transitions to higher levels of entropy (not energy unless perhaps he is thinking of potential energy and its relationship to degrees-of-freedom) and the contention between top-down order and bottom-up disorder that facilitates it.

Unlike Anonymint, I do not believe we live in a deterministic universe.

Readers please note that r0ach continues to write lies both about my and Armstrong's stances.

I even explained to him upthread how the universe remains unbounded in entropy (and thus not deterministic), yet cycles can be still be valid. A cycle doesn't tell you every damn little detail.

The sun rises every day, but that doesn't mean the bugs wake up or visit the same flower every sunrise.

It is really annoying the various crap that writers do on these forums by insinuating or attributing positions to others which are not their positions. It is not professional behavior.

[iamnotback]

So many ripe for mind control with ideological delusion:

https://www.quora.com/How-would-you-summarize-the-purpose-of-life-in-one-sentence

[iamnotback]

Socialism offers the masses something

And what is that exactly, other than a miserable stagnant existence in the self administered chains of dependence? Or are you simply referring to the illusions that socialists have fallen for? I hope I'm not the only one who realizes that the systemically poor deserve exactly what they get, and get exactly what they demand. By demanding the redistribution of wealth they ask that compassion and empathy be made mandatory, which in reality means they are asking for a world in which all forms of genuine compassion and empathy be eliminated. The only possible victory scenario of socialism is successfully bringing the rest of mankind down with it, but in it's defeat we would see the greatest possible good for the greatest number of people (Karl Marx eat your heart out).

The Coasian barrier of the need for concentration of fixed investment capital in the Industrial Age was the cause. Click the quoted thread below for more in depth analysis:

The only source of Marxism is the Jews, it does not originate from anywhere else.

The actual source is the power vacuum created by the natural requirement to concentrate fixed capital in the Industrial Age. The banksters just stepped into that natural power vacuum.

As a species we finally got rid of it (at least officially) in 1981 when Mauritania became the last nation to outlaw slavery.

Slavery has not been eliminated. And will never be eliminated. Because it is natural. Laws outlawing what is natural, never work. Anti-usury laws didn't work either.

Man thinks he is more powerful than he really is.

There are damned facts that we perhaps wish were not true, but I don't see how it will help me by lying to myself, just because those realities are uncomfortable.

BTW I was reading back through this thread and I found I seriously disagree with this statement. I think men merely mistake the oppression of nature and of their direct ancestors poor decision making for oppression by the hand of their fellow living man. Slavery between men can be eliminated or at the very least virtually eliminated. You can look at it from a point of view of diminishing returns in nonlinear dynamic systems, in that a society that is 99% free of coercion is basically just as good as a theoretically 100% coercion-free society while also being exponentially easier to attain the further you get away from that 100% theoretical goal.

Maybe you can expand on your reasoning because I just don't see it.

100% independence would be infinite entropy, thus the past and future would not be differentiated and we would not exist. There was a longer discussion which you can jump into the middle of here.

[iamnotback]

Im sure you realise how outlandish it sounds to say Chinese troops will be stateside sometime soon!! That is going out on a limb, but there are many more examples of these things happening. (My take is that the US will side with Russia against China.)

Yea, there's Anonymint going off into bullshit fantasy land.  The more the paper tiger known as Jewish bankers that only consists of two branches (lying media and financially manipulating banks) tries to come down on the western white man, the faster they will all get holocausted.  What a nonsensical plan Anonymint postulates, that they could somehow take over every town in America militarily.  Even using foreign troops it would be a disaster for them.  Send 100 to try and lock down a small town I'm in and all 100 will be leaving in body bags after they figure out what one person with a rifle and scope can do.

I've noticed that r0ach has very poor reading comprehension. He apparently didn't pay close attention to the fact that I emphasized the prospect of foreign troops occupying ONLY the liberal dominated coasts (and the critically strategic Gulf of Mexico where the all important continental-bisecting Mississippi River meets the world trade), so they could starve the interior of the country of imports, exports, rare earth metals, electronics, cheap oil (sorry fracking extraction isn't economic), international Internet connectivity, etc... The interior of the country would be embargoed (and bombed) back to the Iron Age and cottage industry blacksmiths.

Yeah r0ach's white supremacists are going to get their wish to end complexity and go back to very low productivity of the Amish with horse drawn plows. A gun under every blade of grass will be entirely useless. Checkmate. (those guns will ultimately likely be turned on each other as the economic failure results in every white supremacist warlord for himself with Rothschild ROFLMAO)

The fundamental error of Trump, James Donaldson, r0ach, and other white supremacists retards is that he who controls world trade, controls the top-down outcome. That controlling entity is Rothschild. But the top-down economy is ultimately controlled by the bottom-up Knowledge Age, so that is why the new frontier is decentralized networking technology.

Btw, Russia and China are playing the USA as a fool. While the USA thinks it is dividing-and-conquering the two, they are just biding their time pretending to be aligned to different factions within the USA and they are dividing-and-conquering the USA.

With now more than 50% of the population of the USA conquered by Marxism, it is impossible for the conservative half to split off and retain the military power that the USA has which is actually controlled by the DEEP STATE within the government which is controlled by Rothschild. The conservatives can only split off as a revolutionary militias in the interior of the country, but they can't massacre or starve to death the other 50% without the international community intervening with the USA military rendered divided-and-conquered by refusal of the officers and soldiers to obey orders to shoot their own brethren (whether they be liberals or conservatives).

[iamnotback]

Spoetnik you are describing the fact that the lack of top-down order is a power vacuum due to Coasian costs. I agree, but I want you to read the thread from the following quote forward to the third quote, because Coasian costs become compatible with higher levels of entropy as mankind progresses (credit @CoinCube with that conceptual discovery) and we are leaving the Stage #4 Industrial Age:

How many times have I told you both publicly and in private messages that top-down control doesn't mean there is only one top authority. A diversification of cults each with their own top-down control, is consistent. Never do we have in the universe a falsifiable example of a single top-down authority for any phenomenon. Even you noted that religions are not all the same.

The Coasian barrier of the need for concentration of fixed investment capital in the Industrial Age was the cause. Click the quoted thread below for more in depth analysis:

The only source of Marxism is the Jews, it does not originate from anywhere else.

The actual source is the power vacuum created by the natural requirement to concentrate fixed capital in the Industrial Age. The banksters just stepped into that natural power vacuum.

Yeah r0ach's white supremacists are going to get their wish to end complexity and go back to very low productivity of the Amish with horse drawn plows. A gun under every blade of grass will be entirely useless. Checkmate. (those guns will ultimately likely be turned on each other as the economic failure results in every white supremacist warlord for himself with Rothschild ROFLMAO)

[iamnotback]

Anonymint, seriously, you're just randomly making shit up here.

My track record has been phenomenal.

http://unheresy.com/Essence%20of%20Genius.html

Btw, you attacked the messenger, not the message. Try again to refute the discussed Cycles of Contentionism and the other generative essence that high IQ has discerned. For example, you were completely pwned by @CoinCube on the concept of Exter's pyramid.

That Nature journal is a controlled propaganda sourcegatekeeper. Dig more and you will find out it will be worse than that. We are headed into another LIA, but also factor in that the magnetic poles are moving at a very rapid rate in an opposite direction since 2000 coincident with the change from global warming to cooling which could exacerbate climate upheaval:

Funny how all your links without any kind of sources are heavily trustable but any source we give that doesn't go like you is a controlled propaganda source xD

Okay Pocahontas.

Most people wouldn't be capable of discerning facts if they were a tree that hit them in the face.

For example, you were completely pwned by @CoinCube on the concept of Exter's pyramid.

You have to be joking.  If anything he made himself look foolish claiming bitcoin actually has the capability of defeating the gold market cap.  You've made how many threads yourself saying bitcoin has no future?  Now you're just randomly taking the exact opposite stance even though you know it's wrong.

We are not joking and we know we won that point emphatically and you looked so silly.

There are many details which you fail to assimilate. For example, you are conflating Bitcoin with crypto-currency and decentralized networking technology in general. Napster wasn't the end of file sharing.

File sharing is orders-of-magnitude more used now than it was no long ago during the peak of Napster. That is what will happen to gold's market cap, which btw is 3-4 orders-of-magnitude overstated if we are talking about the physical gold traded by the goldbugs. Nearly all of the gold is controlled by the elite.

I re-wrote the second part of my reply.  I do not believe there will ever be a case of imaginary digital numbers having more value than something that actually exists.  It will always just be a deception involving asymmetric deployment of information:

I guess you could claim the bankers might try to hoist a digital currency scam system upon the serfs, then they would artificially inflate the market cap of the digital numbers that don't exist as more than imagination, and that will somehow surpass the market cap of gold; but at the same time, the central bankers would just buy up and hoard all the gold for themselves.  So the gold in reality is more valuable since they value it more than non-existent digital numbers.  The whole thing in that case would just be a trick and the gold really would still be more valuable...

r0ach your myopia is that you don't understand the scientific fact that the entropic force (The Second Law of Thermodynamics) is cardinal to everything else.

We've even now seen that gravity is an emergent phenomenon of the entropic force (the trend towards ever increasing entropy and the irreversibility of thermodynamic processes).

What this means is that it is irrelevant what the banksters value most, if they are not in alignment with the entropic trend. What nature values is increasing entropy and thus increasing decentralization is more valuable if the Coasian barriers are congruent.

You will learn this lesson the hard way.

Gravity is tangible but it emerges purely from an intangible force of the trend towards increasing (Shannon) information.

https://steemit.com/science/@anonymint/the-golden-knowledge-age-is-rising
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355212.msg17408195#msg17408195
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355212.msg17395839#msg17395839
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1624708.msg16396856#msg16396856
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=495527.msg16593330#msg16593330

Your conceptualization of reality needs to be updated.

He is not buying for a rational reason of buying low and selling high. For him, it is a religion against paper gold.

You are asking him to admit his entire thesis for his life is an error.

No offense, but your thesis on a so called knowledge age is completely irrational.  When complex systems collapse, they devolve into simpler ones.  They never jump into a higher tier of complexity.  Complex systems also tend to require exponential resource (energy) curves.  Peak conventional crude oil already happened in 2004.  Peak working age demographic already occurred in every nation that matters.

Wealth comes from people doing work in the real world, not shuffling around papers.  That work is either done from things like burning fuel to do the work for you, or humans physically doing it themselves.

Your thesis is entirely incorrect.

You had better wake up else you will entirely miss the boat.

Profit margins from mass production are dying. The future profit will increasingly come from creativity.

...8<... [content elided]

The only constant is the Second Law of Thermodynamics which informs us that entropy is trending to maximum. The Knowledge Age is all about increasing entropy. You had better make sure you understand this and stop clinging to incorrect bullshit.

[iamnotback]

Note to those that were following this discussion, it has also had a antecedent discussion in the Economic Devastation thread:

My point is that nothing is a permanent fix and there is no absolute truth. There are competing strategies.

There isn't one order, ever.

Isn't the objective of competition to determine the optimal route?

Agreed. If we could know the absolute truth, there would be no point in life. Everything would already be predetermined and static. There couldn't exist any uncertainty.



When I speak against the State "caring" for children, it is because only parents can really give kids what they need which is love and a family identity. And moreover, because by empowering the State with jurisdiction over the parents, we enable bad outcomes such as the one that happened to me (which pretty much still has me in shock until now when I think about it), which now CoinCube is aware of as I explained it to him in a private message. But I don't want to share that misfortune in public.

Just please when you have bleeding hearts for "the innocent" please consider that you destroy many innocents and cause worse problems by empowering the State to be God and the parents both. Please don't. IMO, if we really care then we try to be hands-on active in our community, try to help those who can be helped up to our available time and/or resources. If we are very busy, we can donate to others who have more time and we are know are doing good community outreach.

Giving too much power to an entity which has no feelings is very dangerous. We can't run a society as a spreadsheet (there is far too much complexity that needs free market annealing).

[iamnotback]

It is very crucial that readers you understand what Stage #5 entails and the timing.

The French election in April/May will set fire to the EU and Euro, that will accelerate the short dollar vortex...

Which Martin Armstrong claims to have predicted 30 years ago:

QUESTION: Hi Martin It’s been 30 years since I first saw you speak ... How time flies. That said why have you not talked about the 86 year Sovereign Debt cycle that is forecasting a Great Depression for 2017. Have the monetary powers delayed this?

ANSWER: No. 2017 is the start of this whole mess. We have bank runs in Greece because the prevailing view is that Merkel will not relent and Greece cannot pay. This is why we are holding two conferences this year because it is very important and it is why I highlighted Greece in the report we issued for 2017.

BTW, thank you for this old hand drawn chart I did so long ago. I didn’t have a copy of it. People do not realize that these forecasts were made decades ago.

This year 2017 will be just the beginning.

Btw, as of 2012, I was aware of Armstrong's predictions made back in 1998 for everything that has occurred hence.

I was aware of Armstrong's 78-year real-estate cycle (≈π⁸ × 3) as of 2013 and was trying to relate it to my concept of a global technology cycle and Second Computer Revolution which I had written about in an essay I had written around the same time.

Edit: note 86 years ≈π⁹ + (π⁷ ÷ 2)

[iamnotback]

Spoetnik you are describing the fact that the lack of top-down order is a power vacuum due to Coasian costs. I agree, but I want you to read the thread from the following quote forward to the third quote, because Coasian costs become compatible with higher levels of entropy as mankind progresses (credit @CoinCube with that conceptual discovery) and we are leaving the Stage #4 Industrial Age:

Actually the conceptual discovery was mentioned by myself in 2010.

You will probably need a week or two of studying the thread slowly.

I will be the first to admit I needed a week or two to fully absorb the following works of AnonyMint.

The Rise of Knowledge
Understand Everything Fundamentally

Together these are quite simply the most insightful piece of economic theory I have ever read.

If the author is right and I think he is we are all in the midst of a tragedy of epic proportions.  It is sad unstoppable and will devastate the lives of much of humanity.

The seeds of those essays were written in 2010. Also here.

Elaboration continued into 2012.

[iamnotback]

http://blog.jim.com/culture/the-false-life-plan/#comment-721849
(read the entire blog post, not just the linked comment)

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4934
(the false life plan is a dead end)

More damned facts:
...
https://blog.jim.com/culture/the-false-life-plan/

Real life example:

https://youtu.be/9TcMP7n9bhw?t=54

Generative Essence:

Asia has the youth. The West has infanticide, feminism, multiculturalism, bankrupt pensions, Marxism, and $trillions in unfunded liabilities to its useless population of spoiled brats. The West will continue collapsing through at least 2032.95. Then it may get a deadcat bounce, then collapsing anew until it is third world economy. Spain's fall from a world empire to a third world country is exemplary. It remains to be seen if and how soon the productive cultures that remain in the West can effectively break away from the useless dead weight. Spain was mired for a century in the infighting as it collapsed from within.

In my unpublished whitepaper, I have cited the research which has explained that economic control over fungible resources invariably become power-law or exponentially distributed. Try to find an exception in nature.

Of course for non-fungible (i.e. high entropy) resources, such economic control over for example female vaginas is not centralized. (But to the extent control over humans is fungible, e.g. via debt, religion/ideology, and mass media, then control is centralized)

...

Sorry you can't defeat thermodynamics. You need top understand why some things remain decentralized and others don't. The key word is obviously fungibility (or more abstractly and generatively the key fundamental is entropy).

[iamnotback]

Wear a well fitted mask over your mouth and nose while traveling and being exposed to people, especially if you traveling even in South Korea, Asia in general, Russia, Eastern Europe and pretty much any where other than very white affluent areas of the world:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1739268.msg17927248#msg17927248
https://drtbnetwork.org/17-using-xpert-mtbrif-diagnose-mdr-tb

[iamnotback]

You seem to have a doomsday attitude, so I don't think you are likely to be in touch with the reality of what will transpire:

I don't think we will reach stage #6.  The Singularity will hit us first.  We are just the breading ground for the machines to take over.  They will take over the totalitarian mechanisms set in place in stage #5.

Btw, I have refuted the Singularity in the past. It will never happen.

I don't want to debate it again right now, which is why I didn't respond to the above comment in that thread.

Just put it this way, total orders have never existed in our universe. So the probability of total doomsday is 0.

For machines to become more important than humans from an evolutionary standpoint (which is all that matters actually in terms of species extinction), then they must become alive and that means they must have a bell curve of attributes and have failure. Because without failure, there isn't existence of life (the past and future will collapse into undifferentiated without friction and imperfection).

Infinite entropy can't exist. Kurzweil is a smart idiot.

As I told you, it is not about *stopping* you.  I used to think that, but they won't try to stop you.  At all.  Unless you piss them off, and then they will simply OBSERVE you, and come after you.  I'm only talking about market manipulation, giving favours (inside knowledge) to their allies, and pumping value out of you (make you buy high, and sell low).

Let's don't get into an ego battle here where to admit being wrong is to lose one's manhood.

Market manipulation doesn't stop Bitcoin from being used as the onramp that I described is its critical function in this revolution.

I think that the singularity is unavoidable.  Simply because the random algorithm of evolution is less efficient in improving systems than intelligent design.

Re-read my post. I added the text necessary to make you see your stance in implausible. That is if you understand what I have been writing else where about why the speed-of-light must be quantifiable. I am not going to re-explain all that in this thread. We are going off-topic.

For machines to become more important than humans from an evolutionary standpoint (which is all that matters actually in terms of species extinction), then they must become alive and that means they must have a bell curve of attributes and have failure. Because without failure, there isn't existence of life (the past and future will collapse into undifferentiated without friction and imperfection).

Of course, and there's nothing inherently impossible to that.  On the contrary.  What makes you think that machines won't "come alive", have bell curve distributed attributes and have failure (I'd say that if there's one thing they already have, is exactly that !) ?

So then you can't predict the future of human interaction with machines. Absolutism doomsday predictions requires a total ordering perspective, which can't exist.

For example, humans may incorporate the machines into themselves. We become partially Cyborgs.

We're just an intermediate species.  Machines are better.

Better must be quantified with the unknown future. Resiliency is better. It can't be predicted. Learn about Taleb's antifragility.

Since when did you become the omniscient God who has a total order perspective on the universe?

For example, humans may incorporate the machines into themselves. We become partially Cyborgs.

I would call that "the machines took over".  If the thing that you incorporate is smarter than your human brain is, then that thing is "the boss" and you are just its biological support.  If you incorporate an exo-skeleton, then that exo-skeleton augments your abilities as a human.  If you incorporate an electronic brain that tells your body how to act, then YOU are the bio-skeleton of that electronic brain, no ?

Replace 'better' with 'smarter' in my prior post, and also refer to my essay, Information is Alive! on why every human brain is unique and that is where creativity and adaptability is actually derived. When TSHTF, creativity bails out the species. Creativity and adaptability doesn't derive from faster deterministic processing. It derives from entropy. Replication is low entropy.

My point is that this exact ability will be, one day, done better by a machine.  The day that machines become more creative than humans is the day I'm talking about.

Why would machines have more entropy? Replication and acquiring knowledge faster is not an increase in entropy.

A human brain is nothing else but a piece of physics, a data processor.  There's no reason that a silicon version of it cannot be better at everything that a human brain can do, including creativity.

You didn't even comprehend my point about entropy then. Try again to read the Information is Alive! essay and think more carefully about it.

It is our interaction biologically with our environment over long periods of evolution that has given us the extremely high entropy that we can't transfer to machines (because it would require the machines be each one of us because none of us can totally comprehend the entire network of all of us). That entropy is buried not only in our genes but in our living biology (which includes the billions of variants of living personalities, cultures, etc). The robots could process information faster, but that gives them no inherent evolutionary advantage in terms of resilient creativity and adaptation due to the historical accumulation of entropy in the species.

This is why it is much more likely that the advantages of machines become incorporated into our species.

Machines can easily have bigger entropy sources than biological entities.   Biological entities derive their evolutionary source of entropy from random mutations.  I don't know what the entropy flux is, but it is monstrously low.  Maybe a few bits per year for a whole species.  The other entropy source is the random recombination of DNA during sexual reproduction.  If it is a megabyte per procreation, it is a lot.

The genes are not the largest store of entropy in our species. The encoding our entropy is in the living network of the species. Our network is alive also, analogous to the brain of ants is the collective brain of the colony. Our entropy is on the magnitude of some exponential or perhaps factorial of a billion (will need to think this out a bit when I have more time).

True random number generators, based upon physical noise, can provide machines with entropy sources of tens of megabytes per second using a few transistors only.  Machines outsmart us already concerning entropy sources.

When we speak about entropy in this context we differentiate noise from Shannon information. So your noise generator is not applicable.

And all processing that a brain can do is deterministic, or stochastic (which is nothing else but deterministic with a true random generator as input, Monte Carlo style).  So there's nothing that a human brain can think off, that a machine cannot think off.

You are thinking about the system of the species by looking at one brain in isolation. That is very myopic. The value is in the diversity of the network.

It is our interaction biologically with our environment over long periods of evolution that has given us the extremely high entropy that we can't transfer to machines. That entropy is buried not only in our genes but in our living biology (which includes the billions of variants of living personalities, cultures, etc). The robots could process information faster, but that gives them no inherent evolutionary advantage in terms of resilient creativity and adaptation due to the historical accumulation of entropy in the species.

Our genetic record (which is essentially most of what remains from all that entropy) is a few GB.  If you take into account on top of that, all epigenetic stuff and I'm being extremely large, lets say a factor of 1000 we end up with at most a few TB.  It is much, much less than that, but I don't need to argue here.

I refuted that already. If you refuse to read and understand what has been written, then I have nothing more to say.

A few TB is ridiculously stupid. We won't even be able to store the monetary blockchain of the world in a few TB. The NSA needs huge datacenters just try to store all the information that humans spit out onto the Internet.

And you think we can put human entropy on a single harddisk. Dude what are you smoking.

Edit: your error is your are thinking the entropy of the human species distills down to some encoding at the physical level of the individual humans, but the network of the humans (the connections and interrelations) is also alive and the entropy of the entire system is incalculable. We don't have the omniscience to perform that computation because it can only be determined with a total order (including on the future). Your doomsday perspective is analogous to "omniscient" leftists who think they can understand and control nature better than nature itself. It is a form of evil.

Btw, this is why the Internet was such a powerful innovation, because it unleashed the power of this species entropy as we are able to network much more efficiently and in wider scope. And this is going to change the world radically with decentralization technology. We are accelerating into the Knowledge Age and the Second Computer Revolution.

You are thinking about the system of the species by looking at one brain in isolation. That is very myopic. The value is in the diversity of the network.

You are comparing all of humanity to one machine.  That is not fair.  You should compare one human to one machine.  Because then you should compare a network of billions of machines to humanity.  If a single machine can outsmart a single human, then a network of a billion of those machines will outsmart a network of a billion of humans (also called humanity).  Guess what ?  That network of humans even needs the machine network to exist ; the machine network doesn't need the humans to interact.

I didn't want to start this debate, because I knew you would drag me into a long noisy debate and now as expected you are ignoring the points I have made. I have already refuted this line of argument.

Please revisit what I have already written and put your thinking cap on. You are not dumb. You have the IQ to understand, if you take off your blinders.

Comparing one human to one machine is not informational at all. That is your first fundamental logic error on this subject matter. Then work forward from there really thinking carefully about my other points.

Why would machines have more entropy? Replication and acquiring knowledge faster is not an increase in entropy.

...

It is our interaction biologically with our environment over long periods of evolution that has given us the extremely high entropy that we can't transfer to machines (because it would require the machines be each one of us because none of us can totally comprehend the entire network of all of us).

...

The genes are not the largest store of entropy in our species. The encoding our entropy is in the living network of the species. Our network is alive also, analogous to the brain of ants is the collective brain of the colony. Our entropy is on the magnitude of some exponential or perhaps factorial of a billion (will need to think this out a bit when I have more time).

...

You are thinking about the system of the species by looking at one brain in isolation. That is very myopic. The value is in the diversity of the network.

And you think we can put human entropy on a single harddisk. Dude what are you smoking.

Edit: your error is your are thinking the entropy of the human species distills down to some encoding at the physical level of the individual humans, but the network of the humans (the connections and interrelations) is also alive and the entropy of the entire system is incalculable. We don't have the omniscience to perform that computation...

Even if you wanted to compare an individual human's entropy to that of your best machine, the machine would still lose:

A 'reference man' (one who is 70 kilograms, 20–30 years old and 1.7 metres tall) contains on average about 30 trillion human cells and 39 trillion bacteria, say Ron Milo and Ron Sender at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Rehovot, Israel, and Shai Fuchs at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto, Canada.

And so now don't just consider the entropy of the DNA in those cells but attempt to calculate the entropy of the living network of interactions and interrelationships between those cells, which will be unique in every human body.

I hope you are starting to fathom why Kurzweil is either not a very sophisticated thinker and/or is a paid propagandist of JAD's Cathedral (i.e. the establishment elite), who employing fearmonging to mind control you (which they have done quite effectively). The Cathedral wants men to feel hopeless, useless, and abandon their manhood.

Please regurgitate the blue pill. I am handing you a red pill.

[iamnotback]

To take up the thread again on this.  I will try to list my "axioms":

1) a human brain is just a physical device that computes.  So it is essentially a deterministic computation function, with information input (sensory neural input) and entropy input (noise in all of its kinds: quantum noise in chemical processes, thermal noise, external noise in different parameters like temperature, cosmic rays, whatever).

The entropy of the human brain is not independent of the entropy of the human body. Our body influences our personality, the way we think and react, etc.. Which shows up as entropy in the millions of petabytes of data that the NSA is storing. Your TeraBytes claim was so incredibly ridiculous (and off by many orders-of-magnitude) and I am really surprised that you can't give up on this failed conceptualization of yours. I expected your intellect is higher than this.

2) the human body construction extracted a lot of information from the 3.8 billions of evolution, but this information is summarized in the genetic and epi-genetic record: all the information needed to make a human body.

Dude human bodies don't just appear fully matured instantly after fertilization. There is an environment contributing to that entropy all along the way of life of the human. Even the infant gradually take on trillions of microflora which wasn't present at birth, which is why they need the natural immunity in the mother's milk (70% of our immune system is in our gut and highly involved with the microflora).

And the network is alive and continuous. That entropy is transferred and mixed with the new humans added to it.

The genetic information is about 4 GB (in fact much less).  The epigenetic information is harder to estimate, but probably of the same order of magnitude.  In order not to delve into this, I admit a factor of 1000.

You are farting hand waving nonsense out of your arse.

And you are wasting my time. That gets you in trouble with me, because I don't have time to waste. You are wasting my time because apparently you don't have the intellect to comprehend or your stubborn and foolish pride won't allow you to look at the situation more objectively.

3) The human brain being a sophisticated computing device of given (large) computing capacity, and evolving only very slowly (the brains of the ancient Greeks are comparable to ours), and given Moore's law, sooner or later, silicon devices will reach comparable computing power.

Processing power has nothing to do with the entropy issue.

You are raising irrelevant concerns. And that you don't understand why it is irrelevant exemplifies that you haven't yet comprehended what I've been trying to teach you.

4) Silicon computing devices enjoy higher sensory data streams and higher entropy (noise) streams than humans.  The highest level of human sensory input is the visual input, which is less than the visual input of an iphone camera.  Silicon devices can be equipped with tens of MB / s of genuine noise entropy with very little electronics (and they can generate much higher fluxes of pseudo-random noise).

You continue to emphasize the capabilities of individual machines (which the human can add and leverage to itself), which is entirely irrelevant to the point of there the incalculable scale of human entropy derives. Until you get this point, you are going to continue to be oblivious to your error in conceptualization of the issue.

5) the data storage capacity of a human brain is estimated to be of the order of 2.5 Petabytes.  That's still 6 orders of magnitude higher than your average PC ram.  Moore's law tells us that we will reach that in an ordinary PC in about 30 years (20 steps of 2, and 18 months per step of 2).

Google is my external storage. I have much more storage than that. You seem to forget that humans leverage machines and tools.

From these axioms, it follows trivially that in some point in the future, all computing that a human brain can do, can be done also in silicon.

By this logic, we could dice up a human into individual cells and say that given that a cell is very limited in capabilities, then humans will be very limited.

By only focusing on one aspect of human (his brain) and only humans in isolation from their network and environment which is integrated into the entropy of the human species, you are basing your conclusion on irrelevant conceptualization.

I'm giving myself a century for the singularity

Then you are a smart idiot, and can join Kurzweil and other doomsday Mathusians who have always been incorrect.

This is just to illustrate that a single silicon entity has enough *hardware* to be more powerful in its computing than a human brain is, in all its respects.
But then there is the "software".

A gallon of gasoline has more energy than a human can produce by himself in a month, yet gasoline has accomplished very little by itself.

Your conceptualization is now giving me the idea that your IQ isn't as high as I thought it might be.

Concerning now the "human network": the entropy flow in the human network flow is NOT huge at all.  In fact, most of it is only a very small fraction of the sensory data flow (the spoken word is at most a few KB per second ; visual human contact is smaller than the visual data flow, less than a few MB/s).  All these "raw data" fluxes are way way redundant, and the actual data flow between humans to make up "humanity" is ridiculously smaller than this.  I would estimate it to be lower than a few KB/s per human.

Oh I see you haven't learnt Chaos Theory, the Butterfly Effect, and the pendulum example from Chaos theory. How much entropy is there in a relationship that can be used to generate the unbounded number of digits of Pi? Yet how many KB does it take to transfer that initial condition (similar to the pendulum initial state).

When someone reads something on the Internet, then they do something which leads to a Butterfly effect which boomerangs as side-effects in the network in unbounded way. You should really understand even the simple case of unbounded nondeterminism in Hewitt's Actor model.

Come on man, you are out of your league debating with me on this topic. Have a little respect and maybe go spend some time learning why you are incorrect.

All of humanity's "knowledge" is available also as network resource, so this information is just as well available to machines as it is to humans.  Wikipedia gives most of human's general knowledge ; arxiv gives a lot of scientific knowledge.  These databases are in fact relatively small.  They can fit into one single RAM of a single machine when those machines will have PB of RAM.

You still don't seem to understand that the network (i.e. the free market) is alive and dynamic and no one can capture that information ever.

If you tried to extract that information then due to Chaos theory, you'd add to it in the process and then when you tried to extract what you added it to it, you add to it some more. You'd never get to the edge of the universe, because this would require that we don't exist in the first place.

You entirely don't comprehend why total orders don't exist and you don't even comprehend what information is.

That's the essence of my argument.

It is pitiful and insulting that you are wasting my time. Please go get an education first.

I tried to be nice, but you are determined to fill up this thread with off topic posts. You could have messaged me in private or started a new thread in Meta forum or some where else.

[iamnotback]

Just wanted to remind you all again i don't think law / regulation = death of crypto.
There is laws for the New York Stock Exchange right ? Well they still trade "penny stocks"

And they are all scams too. I created miningstocks.com in 2007 and so I know something about this.

They trample innovation because only the scammers have the connections, resources, and time to waste getting listed. And they place onerous restrictions on the way a coin could be structured, distributed, etc.. It would absolutely kill the Steem concept, which I think is going to be critical (with significant tweaks, e.g. no voting) to attaining mass adoption.

I hope you also understand that the required underwriting for IPOs is a scam that enables the investment bankers such as Goldman Sachs to take all the early stage gains of an IPO.

Regulation is scam, because the regulated are in bed with the regulators. The regulations end up being a way to keep all the non-scammers out of the profits.

I grow tired of pointing out the hypocrisy.

Yeah we grow tired of your hypocrisy.

Why don't you just admit human nature instead of lying to yourself?

[iamnotback]

...because you're confusing physical entropy, and actual relevant information.  Actual information is limited by physical entropy, but there's a lot of useless noise in physical entropy.  A hot stove sends out tons of physical entropy, but doesn't contribute much to the intelligence (the financial, scientific, political and economical intelligence) of the receiver.  But by having to argue, you obliged me to put upper limits to numbers, which helped me in my thinking, and I thank you for that.

I am just frustrated because I don't have time to whirl away arguing in forums about things that don't really concern the immediate goals I (we) need to be focused on. But I also can't allow the community to get the impression that I am incorrect on any major topic (unless I am genuinely incorrect, in which case I will concede at the earliest possible realization of it).

Also Malthusian doomsday religion FUD supports a lot of scammy shitcoins in our ecosystem, so I'd really like to squash that and encourage more objective rationality amongst speculators (if possible but I am not going to appoint myself as the altcoin police again).

Your error is you don't seem to deeply understand Chaos theory (although I presume you at least understand it superficially or definitionally). You don't seem to understand that a total perspective on information is always contingent on the future outcomes (i.e. to distinguish information from noise requires understanding the future outcomes to which the current body of entropy will be applied) and due to the Butterfly effect then you will egregiously underestimate the possible permutations of outcomes. That is why it is incalculable. And this is also the reason that the network is the vastly greater portion of the entropy and why it is itself also alive. If we had more time and inclination, we could elucidate this more formally.

cha·os the·o·ry
noun
the branch of mathematics that deals with complex systems whose behavior is highly sensitive to slight changes in conditions, so that small alterations can give rise to strikingly great consequences.

Let's use the equation for Pi as an example. We can communicate all of the digits of Pi by simply sending the equation for it. So it seems the entropy is very low in isolation. Now let's introduce a network of actors which respond to input by computing from Nth digit as a function of the input and their prior state, plus the unbounded nondeterminism of the communication latency across the network. Now you have unbounded entropy. That is Chaos theory. The entropy is incalculable and unbounded because it is alive. This is why top-down control always fails. This is the why the free market anneals better because the decisions are made by actors closer to their local gradients.

P.S. another problem is it is very likely that the Singularity has become an ideological cause or religion for you. You've likely invested a lot into it being true. So it not being true is going to be a big blow.

[iamnotback]

The problem that crypto is facing, as compared to penny stock, is that it has no economic function AT ALL.

It has been much more easy for me to take investment from angel investors anonymously via Bitcoin (some was sent with XMR.to and ShapeShift) than I could have achieved with fiat to my bank account in the USA.

We agree.  But that's because this is not totally complying to all legal requirements.

Afaik, I haven't broken any law. Well I've read it conjectured that in the USA that everyone commits 3 felonies a day and doesn't know it, but I mean reasonable and auspicious laws that everyone tends to adhere to.

The point is that blockchains and crypto do LEGAL features that the legacy systems can't do! And the WWW of blockchains is going to do LEGAL things that the legacy WWW can't do.

I am preparing to work on this seriously as soon as my disseminated, extra-pulmonary Tuberculosis is cured.

This is a real use case.  I'm launching this argument in the face of the people wanting total legality of crypto.  THEN it can be done with fiat, or it is (somewhat) illegal.

Myopic, too binary, and fatalistic.

There are entirely legal things that crypto can do that fiat can't do. Decentralization is a feature that isn't always illegal. I think you don't understand why top-down control destroys degrees-of-freedom, which thus inhibits maximum productivity (this ties in with your myopia on why you don't understand that the Singularity is nonsense). You have a very top-down structured, fatalistic perspective on nature. But nature is very decentralized and chaotic (by chaotic we mean UNBOUNDED ENTROPY). The UNBOUNDED ENTROPY is your huge blindspot.

I'm NOT talking (only) about buying guns and drugs on dark markets.  But exactly about your kind of economic relation, which would be dangerous and/or illegal if these guys have it their way.

You presume that TPTB can obtain a total order on the control of the Earth. I understand that due to Chaos theory, they can't. They won't get their way. They are not an omniscient God.

The following shows how it is impossible to maintain total order control, and look at the Gallup poll which shows that the public has lost confidence in top-down institutions:

The corruption of the death of the Industrial Age in Stage #5 will give way to the rising Knowledge Age in Stage #6.

As you say in the rest of your post, you use crypto to hide from the sticky fat fingers of state and law.

Not making my cash easily accessible to someone's abuse of the State and another agency's abuse of the law is just degrees-of-freedom and chaos in action. It doesn't mean I did anything illegal or I am hiding from the law. It means it was more efficient (cheaper and more expedient) than going to court or otherwise fight abuse by others in the society. It is not an absolute matter of it being illegal, because for the moment it is afaik not illegal. Someone sent me BTC and I didn't move it to my bank account. No government agency requires me to report that action to anyone at this time. And by the time the USA gets around to requiring that, I will have renounced my citizenship (this is on my TODO list asap). These top-down Western clusterfucks will collapse back to third world cesspools. The world will move on.

That's the true reason for crypto to exist.  When it becomes entirely "legal" it will not serve that purpose any more.

There are things we really need on the Internet which can't be done currently, but which can be done with decentralized micropayments and decentralized consensus on data (i.e. a blockchain).

Soon (if my health cooperates) you will become more informed about my plans...

[BADecker]

The problem that crypto is facing, as compared to penny stock, is that it has no economic function AT ALL.

It has been much more easy for me to take investment from angel investors anonymously via Bitcoin (some was sent with XMR.to and ShapeShift) than I could have achieved with fiat to my bank account in the USA.

We agree.  But that's because this is not totally complying to all legal requirements.

Afaik, I haven't broken any law. Well I've read it conjectured that in the USA that everyone commits 3 felonies a day and doesn't know it, but I mean reasonable and auspicious laws that everyone tends to adhere to.

The point is that blockchains and crypto do LEGAL features that the legacy systems can't do! And the WWW of blockchains is going to do LEGAL things that the legacy WWW can't do.

In America, the people who make the laws are, well, people. Where did they get their right to have such authority? From some documents that were set in place hundreds of years ago?

Their authority isn't any greater than yours if you want to state the opposite. The only place they get their authority to bind you to their legality is if you decide to be bound and accept it.

The 9th Amendment says that we have all the rights that we had before Government was around. Even Government states that the things that it says and does are not binding on us.