Biblepay BBP Community Discussion Thread

[inblue]

Don't get me wrong, I support you being the OP, you don't miss a single message, follow everything actively and take care of a lot of things, so of all people in the BiblePay project, I would pick you to be the thread OP. I'm just concerned for the future, because this is exactly how the previous self-moderated thread started, like a salvation or a fix of the chaos erupted, but then that thread turned into an even bigger chaos, lol. But maybe it's just because of the person who is OP and others who participate (and their relationship), no thread reset can stop humans from being humans...

Rob has shown to be slow to update the ANN,
and for months he purposefully left out critical keywords from the title

I agree with this. To me it's unbelievable how can he code for hours and days, but can't update just the OP title, for months. And updating the title is worth more than all those days of coding work, when comparing the impact vs time consumed. Updating the OP contents is much more complicated and time consuming, I know I would procrastinate on that, but just the title...

[inblue]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5067231.msg47868086#msg47868086

Lol.

[inblue]

Togo, amazing work on the first post design! It's very clear and easy to see all info. Could we have OP in this thread updated with it please?

Let's first see if we can hear an apology from you to me for :
Claiming that I was hiding proposals
Claiming that I am dishonest
Recognizing that it was a misunderstanding on your part

And I will apologize back to you and move forward in a positive light.

Um, what are you talking about, the proof is right there - you've hidden the previous proposal from your website and made a new one, misleading users that there are not so many negative votes on that proposals, and rigging the voting system in your favor, so that your proposal could pass. This is the 100% undeniable truth, with proof on the blockchain which will never go away, no matter how hard you want it.

Also, read this:

Why Making People Apologize For Their Mistakes Is A Bad Idea
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markmurphy/2017/07/22/why-making-people-apologize-for-their-mistakes-is-a-bad-idea/

It will be a good start on your way to becoming more mature.

[inblue]

From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5067231.msg47868086#msg47868086

** Warning:  Not official **

Rob, don't spread FUD that it's "risky" to use this thread,

Hi inblue, Please do not post messages here that violate the guidelines.  If you continue to do so you will be banned.

Multiple times I asked you to email me if you have any personal problems but you are afraid to.  Rob@biblepay.org.  Im waiting.

No, the messages violate your brain, not any guidelines.

And how ironic that you call me afraid, yet you are clearly afraid because you always want to hide in private conversations! Why not be a man and speak in front of everyone? Instead, you manipulate everyone individually in private. Also, you are even more rude in private, so I can't see any upside to that.

[inblue]

Same as dash - if you wish to risk 5 dash you can enter multiple dash proposals, and ask users to vote on the latest.

NOPE, NOT SAME. In Dash the old proposal would stay visible!

A losing proposal is a losing proposal. People have to pay more to re-enter another instance. It still needs voted in.

A losing proposal is a losing proposal? Well, that's exactly what I'm advocating, but that's exactly what's NOT the case with the incident you made. You made a losing proposal into a not-losing-proposal-anymore. You practically removed all the negative votes. And then those who voted negative didn't see the new proposal or they simply thought "well I voted already for that proposal" and of course they will not vote again.

You really need to start acting as a man and not a whiny baby InBlue. Im acting professional and giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Um, you started this when you attacked me because I praised Togo's redesigned OP, lol.

[inblue]

Im telling you if you would have emailed me, I would have worked through every one until you had no choice but to reply with an apology (since the truth stands), and we would have saved the drama here.

Why don't you then work through every issue here? What is the difference? What do you need to hide?

And the truth doesn't choose sides, it is the truth. You can't bend truth.

Also, I see you didn't take my advice and read this:
Why Making People Apologize For Their Mistakes Is A Bad Idea
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markmurphy/2017/07/22/why-making-people-apologize-for-their-mistakes-is-a-bad-idea/

[thesnat21]

inblue:

On the proposal front I thought the original was still visible in the wallet?

Regardless, a masternode monitor/proposal history/vote tracker is in the works for my toolbox..  This will help bring transparency

[secoccular]

Even though things have gotten personal with the sleights and insults, one thing appears to me. That we are a community, and some of what has been brought up really needs to come to light, for the community about how things are being handled. They affect us all. Let's have a non-censored discussion.

It's actually in the best interest of everyone. Let everyone hear. If you all want to argue about whether so-and-so is acting Christian enough, then PMs are the way to go. But for community-wide issues, like how proposals work behind the scenes and potential conflicts of interest.  How can we say that only affects one person who needs to work it out in private? I don't want to make any comparisons to political parties who employ that tactic. Let's just say it tends to end badly for all. I'm really hoping that doesn't happen here.

Do I, as the owner of a tiny amount of biblepay, have the right to understand the proposal process?
Is it true anyone can just "reboot" their proposal until it passes (those with the most votes can take full advantage of this?
Can proposals really be hidden, and who has the decision on that?
How many nodes does the lead dev have?

These are examples of questions that arise because information only comes out piecemeal, maybe leaked from private conversations and messages. I don't want to see this sad trend continue, so let's get things out in the light, maybe then it's easier to trust again?   The problem with "let's just start over", is the questions that spawned the controversy are left unadressed. so the release of tension is only temporary. Then the cycle starts again, maybe with something new added to the fire. We can fix this, but we have to make some new patterns.

Edit: spelling.

[thesnat21]

Even though things have gotten personal with the sleights and insults, one thing appears to me. That we are a community, and some of what has been brought up really needs to come to light, for the community about how things are being handled. They affect us all. Let's have a non-censored discussion.

It's actually in the best interest of everyone. Let everyone hear. If you all want to argue about whether so-and-so is acting Christian enough, then PMs are the way to go. But for community-wide issues, like how proposals work behind the scenes and potential conflicts of interest.  How can we say that only affects one person who needs to work it out in private? I don't want to make any comparisons to political parties who employ that tactic. Let's just say it tends to end badly for all. I'm really hoping that doesn't happen here.

Do I, as the owner of a tiny amount of biblepay, have the right to understand the proposal process?
Is it true anyone can just "reboot" their proposal until it passes (those with the most votes can take full advantage of this?
Can proposals really be hidden, and who has the decision on that?
How many nodes does the lead dev have?

These are examples of questions that arise because information only comes out piecemeal, maybe leaked from private conversations and messages. I don't want to see this sad trend continue, so let's get things out in the light, maybe then it's easier to trust again?   The problem with "let's just start over", is the questions that spawned the controversy are left unadressed. so the release of tension is only temporary. Then the cycle starts again, maybe with something new added to the fire. We can fix this, but we have to make some new patterns.

Edit: spelling.

I'm getting a larger understanding of things that have and can go on.  I agree with you that these are valid concerns, and do need to get addressed.

What I'm working on is understanding.   Until we can get to a starting place of respectful communication,  nothing will get answered.

What is clear to me is this:  (from your list)
1.  Rob has several MN's (I read earlier in this thread for my speculation,  he denies the number and has not, and seems like will not answer this).
2.  The Block Chain allows Proposals to be re-submitted..  For Charting/statistics this is managed through the same proposal name, and ideally is used to prevent budget over-runs (something will not be paid if the budget overflows).  There is a legitimate purpose to this.  Can this be used maliciously yes? is it a level playing field (ie
3.  The proposals are never hidden on the blockchain (rpc command "gobject list" will provide the full account).   New ones with the same name hide the old one on the forum (and biblepay-central) only, this is for "reporting" purposes.

I don't mind having a more open discussion, I agree these are questions the "public" seems to want to know.

I will ask for some patience, and give me some time to find the details, and work in the background to work towards better transparency.

If you want answers, and progress, it will take effort. On all our parts.


I also know,  from my discussions Rob has a grand vision for this project..   His goal is not to see it fail.  (think about if you spent a year of your life working on something like this...) 

My history here should be clear,  I have no interest in being a "yes-man"...   I will speak my mind,  but if it is to be received how I speak it is just as important as what I say    This has been a learning journey for me as well.


By clean slate I was referring to not holding grudges, not just complaining, not saying  "well we said this back then"....   Act as if we were never here before and lets discuss issues as adults. (if you can't, at least pretend you are haha).

I also would rather have these more in-depth discussions on the official forums...  These threads  are a wealth of knowledge but it gets buried pages back and most won't go digging for the gold.  (I know I personally cant do it at this point).


Hope all this makes sense,   and we can start working together!

[sunk818]

The sooner you can help us create a DASH Ninja for masternode analytics... the better.

Audits like duplicate MN proposal titles, etc... will make it easier to bring things to light.

I also believe a decentralized discussion of proposals would be ideal. Something that has revision history, so any edits are tracked. Wish there was a decentralized git type of product where anyone can participate with an alias. Gotta research if there are any OpenAlias services that let you do decentralized discussions. This is ideal for proposal discussion, I think.

[thesnat21]

The sooner you can help us create a DASH Ninja for masternode analytics... the better.

Audits like duplicate MN proposal titles, etc... will make it easier to bring things to light.

I also believe a decentralized discussion of proposals would be ideal. Something that has revision history, so any edits are tracked. Wish there was a decentralized git type of product where anyone can participate with an alias. Gotta research if there are any OpenAlias services that let you do decentralized discussions. This is ideal for proposal discussion, I think.

For the forum.biblepay.org I turned off user edit/deletes for the main proposal forum.  This is a start

as for the toolset, working on it..

[thesnat21]

Why the website cant't open! Mycryptocurrency is inside,i think is a fraud project!

Which website? ...  This is not an ANN thread

[secoccular]

Why the website cant't open! Mycryptocurrency is inside,i think is a fraud project!

Which website? ...  This is not an ANN thread

Check his post history. Seems to be a habit for ths person.



And thanks for you reply to my post above. It's a little disappointing the issue of MN control by the lead dev is going to just hang there without an answer. Maybe my expectations are out of line, but some other projects I'm involved with have 100% transparency (and those are secular projects). It's strange to have these pockets of hidden information, but it is what it is.

I learned a new term the other day -- monarch coin. Do you think it applies.

I completely see that Rob is heavily invested in this project, and....surprise... I want it to succeed too, and am trying to point out things that could really derail it. Maybe my focus is wrong.

Why should this discussion happen on the main thread? The ANN thread is where we get reports from the dev and team, as well as some light troubleshooting. It seems appropriate to have a separate thread like this, where we can look into the mirror a bit. It seems cleaner to me to have some separation.

Which brings me to a point about separation. It's really necessary, especially in business. We have to see ourselves as investors, project members, charity givers, Christians, etc. etc. Of course we're all these things, but it's good to have boundaries. When we get overly identified with one aspect, the others suffer.

One more thought. Years ago, I learned a Chinese expression "running a country is like frying a fish". For years I could not figure out the meaning. It wasn't until I actually fried a fish that the meaning became clear. If you fry a fish, you can only turn it once or twice before the fish dis-integrates.

I feel our fishes are, technically, suffering from over-turning. Currently I am completely unable to promote the coin, because I have no idea what the direction is--orphans, widows, file hosting, etc.  In the short while I've been here, the future of the project seems to be spinning more and more into complexity. We use terms like POBH or whatever the Orphan Proof is called. Do we realize those terms mean not a lot outside of our little group? It creates a barrier of entry, where new members are forced to learn a new vocabulary that doesn't apply anywhere outside of the project. I almost looked past this one because it involved a lot more learning on my part to figure out all the terminology, so it took more of an "investment" to even understand BBP.

Has anyone considered making a glossary type document that defines what all these terms are? It would be easier on new folks like me to be able to enter the world of BBP knowing all the definitions, instead of having to hang out on the main thread for a while to pick up the pieces intuitively. Thanks for reading.

[zthomasz]

I learned a new term the other day -- monarch coin. Do you think it applies.

What is the definition of a "monarch coin"?

I would agree that the chinese "cooking a fish" metaphor is appropriate for our situation history.

POOM will be added because PODC was too difficult to setup to BOINC a lot of RAC after POW was secured by POS.

 

[zthomasz]

.

[thesnat21]

And thanks for you reply to my post above. It's a little disappointing the issue of MN control by the lead dev is going to just hang there without an answer. Maybe my expectations are out of line, but some other projects I'm involved with have 100% transparency (and those are secular projects). It's strange to have these pockets of hidden information, but it is what it is.

I understand your frustration, unfortunately when it comes to "personal" information nobody can force you to reveal it...   A choice must be made to support the project without this understanding, or move on?

I learned a new term the other day -- monarch coin. Do you think it applies.

I completely see that Rob is heavily invested in this project, and....surprise... I want it to succeed too, and am trying to point out things that could really derail it. Maybe my focus is wrong.

Why should this discussion happen on the main thread? The ANN thread is where we get reports from the dev and team, as well as some light troubleshooting. It seems appropriate to have a separate thread like this, where we can look into the mirror a bit. It seems cleaner to me to have some separation.

Why not have it in the main thread?   Or ... better yet on forum.biblepay.org, this would add content and some real discussions there that could help bring people into a discussion.

Unless this type of topic is in a dedicated place,  (thread with a single purpose) any of this information will ultimately be buried and lost, and questions will come back to be answered again.

Which brings me to a point about separation. It's really necessary, especially in business. We have to see ourselves as investors, project members, charity givers, Christians, etc. etc. Of course we're all these things, but it's good to have boundaries. When we get overly identified with one aspect, the others suffer.

One more thought. Years ago, I learned a Chinese expression "running a country is like frying a fish". For years I could not figure out the meaning. It wasn't until I actually fried a fish that the meaning became clear. If you fry a fish, you can only turn it once or twice before the fish dis-integrates.

I feel our fishes are, technically, suffering from over-turning. Currently I am completely unable to promote the coin, because I have no idea what the direction is--orphans, widows, file hosting, etc.  In the short while I've been here, the future of the project seems to be spinning more and more into complexity. We use terms like POBH or whatever the Orphan Proof is called. Do we realize those terms mean not a lot outside of our little group? It creates a barrier of entry, where new members are forced to learn a new vocabulary that doesn't apply anywhere outside of the project. I almost looked past this one because it involved a lot more learning on my part to figure out all the terminology, so it took more of an "investment" to even understand BBP.

Has anyone considered making a glossary type document that defines what all these terms are? It would be easier on new folks like me to be able to enter the world of BBP knowing all the definitions, instead of having to hang out on the main thread for a while to pick up the pieces intuitively. Thanks for reading.

I would agree with this point as well..  We are a complex coin, some steps have been taken to help reduce the complexity, but I agree every new feature adds to the complexity.

A glossary would be good, but we could also work to call things what they are,  PoBH = POW .. This is a good point why make things sound more complex than they are?

[secoccular]

Thanks for your response.

Agree with most of what you wrote. Personal information is just that, true. And there is more than one coin out there that has pseudonyms and anonymity. So it's nothing uncommon. I can't imagine going around to churches and giving everyone a pseudonym. Then again, my real name isn't secoccular. ;p


I still think the discussion is better somewhere here on bct, just for more visibility. But I understand what you're saying, and I don't have much more to add to this thread.

I'm looking at/ involved with over a dozen projects right now. and wouldn't want to join a separate outside forum for each of them. Discord is a little easier because it's all in one place. But I'll go check out the BBP forum again and see the activity levels. Maybe it is better to keep the moaning over there. I don't know.

I'm happy to see the community coming together more. Having forum managers creates an important buffer, and makes it easier on Rob and us plebes. In my experience of *cough* years in IT, the most brilliant programmers weren't really hard-wired for some kinds of communication. The ones that did the best had some folks in from of them, so they could focus on the coding.

In total agreement with your comments about complexity. Using more common terms would be a huge help for newcomers. PoW is just PoW, as you say.

As to the monarch coin (asked above), like all slang terms, it arose spontaneously, without a set definition from the "Satoshi Fan Club". But I would say it's a coin where there's basically one person at the head, who codes, makes changes to the structure (like the widow thing), owns a large number of nodes, and really has final decision. Whether that applies to BBP, I don't know.

Again, I'm really happy with the new moderation on the ANN thread. It feels like a positive direction.

[thesnat21]

Thanks for your response.

Agree with most of what you wrote. Personal information is just that, true. And there is more than one coin out there that has pseudonyms and anonymity. So it's nothing uncommon. I can't imagine going around to churches and giving everyone a pseudonym. Then again, my real name isn't secoccular. ;p


I still think the discussion is better somewhere here on bct, just for more visibility. But I understand what you're saying, and I don't have much more to add to this thread.

I'm looking at/ involved with over a dozen projects right now. and wouldn't want to join a separate outside forum for each of them. Discord is a little easier because it's all in one place. But I'll go check out the BBP forum again and see the activity levels. Maybe it is better to keep the moaning over there. I don't know.

I'm happy to see the community coming together more. Having forum managers creates an important buffer, and makes it easier on Rob and us plebes. In my experience of *cough* years in IT, the most brilliant programmers weren't really hard-wired for some kinds of communication. The ones that did the best had some folks in from of them, so they could focus on the coding.

In total agreement with your comments about complexity. Using more common terms would be a huge help for newcomers. PoW is just PoW, as you say.

As to the monarch coin (asked above), like all slang terms, it arose spontaneously, without a set definition from the "Satoshi Fan Club". But I would say it's a coin where there's basically one person at the head, who codes, makes changes to the structure (like the widow thing), owns a large number of nodes, and really has final decision. Whether that applies to BBP, I don't know.

Again, I'm really happy with the new moderation on the ANN thread. It feels like a positive direction.

Fair enough,  I get that people are busy and like a central place to look for things. 

Discord is available but suffers the same "buried in history" issue,  on the flipside it allows for more real-time discussion.  I am on there as "freddymac" I suppose I should change the name to match .. just have not felt like doing it

I'd love to get more activity on the official forums ..  If we could it would help show the activity level of the project.  (I get its "another" site to check, but from an outsider perspective it could indicate an active "core" community)


Appreciate your input, and the ongoing discussion.   I don't think your comments here need to be buried in this thread either though if you insist on using BCT.   

IMHO, you have articulated your points well, and with respect

[secoccular]

I wandered over to the official forum, but the activity level seems pretty low, and I couldn't find a place for a high-level philosophical discussion there. I honestly think more people read the threads over here.

I also wanted to get your input on a couple of questions. Why isn't there more community involvement with this coin? I notice it seems like a small number of people are responsible for the vast majority of the posts, which are very technically detailed, and I'm not sure who the audience most of you are speaking to. It would take me a lot of time to figure out what everyone's talking about, so most of it just sails over my head. Maybe others feel the same way? This is by far the most demanding project to try and understand.

Shouldn't there be more diverse activity for a 500+ page thread? If so, what do you think we can do to improve that? I'm not sure how to contribute on the main ANN thread. It feels like there's no room there.

The second question is my biggest concern, which is the extremely low volume. How can we improve this? It seems like on a lot of projects I follow, people gravitate towards getting lsited on more exchanges as the solution. But does that really bring investors in, as a case of "if you build it, they will come" (which I don't think works). Of course the overall bear market doesn't help. Still, it feels like there's a gap somewhere, but I can't put my finger on it..

Sorry for continuing this thread, but it still feels relevant as a community discussion.

[thesnat21]

I wandered over to the official forum, but the activity level seems pretty low, and I couldn't find a place for a high-level philosophical discussion there. I honestly think more people read the threads over here.

I also wanted to get your input on a couple of questions. Why isn't there more community involvement with this coin? I notice it seems like a small number of people are responsible for the vast majority of the posts, which are very technically detailed, and I'm not sure who the audience most of you are speaking to. It would take me a lot of time to figure out what everyone's talking about, so most of it just sails over my head. Maybe others feel the same way? This is by far the most demanding project to try and understand.

Shouldn't there be more diverse activity for a 500+ page thread? If so, what do you think we can do to improve that? I'm not sure how to contribute on the main ANN thread. It feels like there's no room there.

The second question is my biggest concern, which is the extremely low volume. How can we improve this? It seems like on a lot of project I follow, people gravitate towards getting lsited on more exchanges as the solution. But does that really bring investors in, or is it a case of "if you build it, they will come" (which I don't think works). Of course the overall bear market doesn't help. Still, it feels like there's a gap somewhere, but I can't put my finger on it..

Sorry for continuing this thread, but it still feels relevant as a community disucssion.

For the bbp forum I'm open to suggestions on new threads over there.. so far people seem reluctant to sign up (outside the core team).  If people are unwilling to start discussions because of a lack of discussions, it seems like a circular issue.. If we could "win over" to start posting it may help.


I agree with the volume concern,  adding exchanges has not seemed to help the current situation much unfortunately.  I would be reluctant to attempt another at this moment, due to the fee's associated with most exchanges (and the time required for the exhange fund to re-stock at our current valuation).  On the other side, most exchanges require a certain volume to keep listed.  Rob spoke to another opportunity for next year possibly.

Overall the bear market has been ruthless for the majority of crypto!   I don't know how much longer this is going to continue but I don't feel there is much room for us to grow until it turns around.  However, I do pray I am wrong!

I'm working on some data collection and reporting..  This should give us some more insight into the userbase and i'm hoping show us some ideas to fix things.