Biblepay BBP Community Discussion Thread

[zthomasz]

We're making progress. Together we stand in Christ.

[1714969606]

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[togoshigekata]

https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/9q95lm/rob_and_togo_situation/

Deleted Comments: https://www.removeddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/9q95lm/rob_and_togo_situation/

[inblue]

https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/9q95lm/rob_and_togo_situation/

Deleted Comments: https://www.removeddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/9q95lm/rob_and_togo_situation/

Thanks for posting this, I was not aware of the recent comments.

[inblue]

Are posts being deleted again? I recall this was not going to happen. Are conditions being met that posts merit deletion?

I don't see posts being deleted.

This is an outright lie. Rob has deleted 2 of my posts from this thread, which expose his lies and deceiving behavior with proposal deletions. Then he covers up the deceits by deleting the posts. Then he covers up the post deletions by further lying that he didn't delete any posts. Rob, you would be an excellent politician, lol, but here, everything dirty you do cannot be hidden, even with all the deletions you want. You just keep digging a deeper hole for yourself.

A good and honest man wouldn't have to delete any questions or criticisms. A good and honest man has nothing to hide.

Time of deletion of the 1st post: Oct 23 2018, 02:36:31
Time of deletion of the 2nd post: Oct 23 2018, 14:43:22

BCT forum mods can confirm this is the truth.

Also I posted the same posts at the same time in this thread ▼ (yes, this post too), so they can stay there for posterity. One of the posts even received merit.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5030298.msg47169688#msg47169688

Click "Watch" in that thread to be notified about uncensored BiblePay news and info.

That will become the main thread soon, unless Rob decides to radically change.

I'm sorry to everyone in the community that we have to put up with this misery. It's temporary and we will come out of it stronger.

Now I understand why Rob was kicked out of GridCoin. If there is no radical change in his behavior, I'm afraid we will have no choice but to also continue without him.

Ha, tricked you! The real button is at the top-right. Click it now.

[username_is_my_name]

Just to be clear, I thought it was stated in the reddit forum by current gridcoin lead that Rob left on good terms? I just don't want to mix up current tensions with past history if it isn't correct.

[sunk818]

Just to be clear, I thought it was stated in the reddit forum by current gridcoin lead that Rob left on good terms? I just don't want to mix up current tensions with past history if it isn't correct.

Rob gave up the private key gridcoin foundation. I wonder what he Really thinks versus what is stated in public. It's not good business to speak your mind sometimes.

[inblue]

Just to be clear, I thought it was stated in the reddit forum by current gridcoin lead that Rob left on good terms? I just don't want to mix up current tensions with past history if it isn't correct.

Rob gave up the private key gridcoin foundation. I wonder what he Really thinks versus what is stated in public. It's not good business to speak your mind sometimes.

Exactly. If I were the GridCoin lead dev, I would never say in public something like "Yeah, he was like this and this and we kicked him out". GRC lead dev actually wrote a diplomatic/euphemistic/evasive/unclear sentence which may as well hide whatever you like - quote from Reddit:

He just had a different vision than what the community voted for and opted to take another path.

Now think for a moment about this sentence. Do you really think it's possible that someone would dedicate months or years of work toward a project with love, and then after a community votes for a different path, he's like "alright guys, see ya!", just like that, without batting an eye? Of course there had to be some drama and emotions, it would be impossible otherwise, especially knowing Rob.

Also, that same quote from Reddit is totally unrelated to the previous comment which said the blockchain stopped after a code commit by Rob, which was obviously referring to some time before July 2017 (before BiblePay was born), yet Den Ravonska says:

[Nobody was] mad at Rob for chain breakage. In fact, he had nothing to do with the forkapocalypse of early 2018.

What the what?! It's like the previous comment asked if it was Rob's fault for the "forkapocalypse" of 2018, which doesn't make any sense. Why would something which happened in GRC in 2018 have anything to do with Rob which was working on BBP at the time? Why would he even mention something so unrelated? Or was it unrelated? In any case, his message is highly confusing and doesn't say anything concrete, except mentioning some random unrelated event.

Also, the parent comment said:

[...] an update he did made the GRC blockchain stop.

And Den's message says:

These are all incorrect.

But the same Den's message also says:

We did not split part on bad terms, nor was anyone mad at Rob for chain breakage.

Lol. So he is outright lying in the post, saying it's incorrect that the chain broke and then saying that it did broke.

So that was an absolute trash of a message from that guy.


By the way, I see there's another deleted message in that Reddit thread which I didn't see before, so here it is for posterity:

I have a massive issue with this. Now that it is public knowledge I can now be more candid. Rob's non-disclosure of GridCoin is a major breach of trust and I will explain why.

A forum post during the month of January on the BitCoinTalk Forum suggested that "heat mining" be tied to cycles for science by a random user. Rob immediately dog-piles on that and presents this "aha!" moment to the community that he has solved the riddle of the heat mining problem. Convenient that he shoe-horns GRC code into BBP to "sidestep" the botnet, but here's where I have a BIG issue. Code that was worked on for GRC ended up in BBP shortly thereafter.

The problem I have is that Rob was paid for both commits. Neither did he disclose this to the public and I am certain that he wouldn't offer it up without being called out for it, either. This kind of shadowy work cannot be done on a project with so many churches blindly getting onboard. There will be more reveals coming by the way. I'm speaking to churches that Rob went to who declined his offer. He's also out there attempting to "consult" churches in getting BBP mining going. Not going to knock a guy for trying to put food on the table but this kind of double & triple dipping seems WAY out of hand. The GRC connection is only the beginning.

Now I'm thinking - isn't it strange that after all this time Rob still hasn't disclosed his previous work, or his identity? One thing he probably doesn't realize is that people would treat him much better if he had a face! It's easy for people to be insensitive when they are talking to a faceless forum user, but if he showed his face, he would have much more respect automatically. It's basic psychology.

[zthomasz]

History gives insight into someone's prior behavior and helps us understand their present behavior. It looks like the former lead dev of a project decided to create a new one that gave him enough control to insure he would never lose it.

The game is about power. The challenge for the dev is the same challenge for all Christians. Do we humble ourselves to the leadership of our true King, or do we cling to our own power?

As for transparency, the CEO of every single public company is required to give up their anonymity and to face ongoing scrutiny. It's only a matter of time until mainstream participation and financial regulation will require the same openness and accountability for CEO-devs in the murky financial world of crypto.

[thesnat21]

History gives insight into someone's prior behavior and helps us understand their present behavior. It looks like the former lead dev of a project decided to create a new one that gave him enough control to insure he would never lose it.

The game is about power. The challenge for the dev is the same challenge for all Christians. Do we humble ourselves to the leadership of our true King, or do we cling to our own power?

As for transparency, the CEO of every single public company is required to give up their anonymity and to face ongoing scrutiny. It's only a matter of time until mainstream participation and financial regulation will require the same openness and accountability for CEO-devs in the murky financial world of crypto.

Fair point,  some changes are coming that may help settle things for a bit...   stick around guys it's going to be an interesting ride.

[jamescowens]

I am a core dev on Gridcoin, and I can categorically say that the lead Gridcoin dev's post is absolutely right. Rob departed on amicable terms and remains on friendly terms. His vision for Gridcoin was simply different than the community's. Rob wanted to take Gridcoin in the direction of DASH masternodes, whereas the rest of the community wanted to keep Gridcoin based on Bitcoin's core code, bringing it up to date with the current bitcoin core, and implementing new features in accordance with the Gridcoin 4.0 roadmap. We are executing on this roadmap.

[thesnat21]

Guys take a look a the recent update for the community.. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2388064.msg47302933#msg47302933

Rob has opened his hands quite a bit with this, and I would appreciate your support in keeping the community going..

For the time being we can leave this thread open,   I would ask that if you have a post deleted and you do not see a public comment on why from tmike or myself to let one/both of us know.

I will ask one thing,   lets keep Gridcoin speculations off the main thread,  until/unless Rob says there is a link publicly.

This could be a turning point for the community if everyone allows it to be.

[zthomasz]

Guys take a look a the recent update for the community.. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2388064.msg47302933#msg47302933

Rob has opened his hands quite a bit with this, and I would appreciate your support in keeping the community going..

For the time being we can leave this thread open,   I would ask that if you have a post deleted and you do not see a public comment on why from tmike or myself to let one/both of us know.

I will ask one thing,   lets keep Gridcoin speculations off the main thread,  until/unless Rob says there is a link publicly.

This could be a turning point for the community if everyone allows it to be.

I wish the best for you and Tmike in your new roles, I hope and trust this change works out for the good of the community.

I'm posting your main forum post below for reader convenience.

ANNOUNCEMENT:  Important update for the BiblePay Community:

Change is important, change can and will change your life!   Welcome to some new changes.

As Rob posted a few days back,  he is looking for someone to "Take Control" of community and offload some of the workload from him.  
This is a win for decentralization, and makes the core team larger while offloading some of workload from the existing folks.

With this in mind, tmike and I are going to be sharing the burden of this position, and will look for others that can aid us in this process.

* Social media accounts are being split up for ownership, and control will be shared among several core users,  this helps to limit the "single man" liability.
* Jaap now has primary primary control over Reddit, and maintains the Telegram
* I now have access the the main biblepay twitter account, and will help manage the team that can post tweets on our behalf.
* Biblepay Official forums will be transitioned from Rob to a new host, and maintained by tmike and myself.  Once this is completed we will have some guidelines for having better discussions over there, and will allow for some more freedom than this ANN thread, as well as some more focused discussions.


For those that have been around,  you have seen the stuff that has gone on and you know what my stance has been, and should have an idea what it would take for Rob to allow these changes to proceed. We have had some good discussions in private and prayed for Rob and the future of Biblepay. Which helped to facilitate this and shows his willingness to work with us to improve things.  

What we are looking for from the community is a clean start.   I am not taking this lightly,   and you should not either.

New community guidelines going forward:
* Be respectful,  think about the children and the lives we are trying to bless through this project.  Speak as if they are reading each and every reply.
* Post deletions will be limited to topics that have personal or confidential information only.   We're working with Rob on the guidelines for this since currently he is the only one with access to delete messages. (Please, don't make this an issue by posting garbage
* Work with each other on understanding.   We all have different backgrounds, pains, motivations.   Let's seek to unify for the sake of our Lord and those we want to keep blessing.
* tmike and I will work on support, and relaying topics back to the devs as needed.   User support is still encouraged, and welcomed!

If everyone plays along, we can transform this community from a hostile environment to something worthy of representing Christ and the original vision of this project.

[thesnat21]

I wish the best for you and Tmike in your new roles, I hope and trust this change works out for the good of the community.

I'm posting your main forum post below for reader convenience.

Thanks!

I want to clarify, we're not looking to become dictators,   but to better relate with the community... If you see something other than this feel free to PM us

[sunk818]

The problem I have is that Rob was paid for both commits. Neither did he disclose this to the public and I am certain that he wouldn't offer it up without being called out for it, either. This kind of shadowy work cannot be done on a project with so many churches blindly getting onboard. There will be more reveals coming by the way. I'm speaking to churches that Rob went to who declined his offer. He's also out there attempting to "consult" churches in getting BBP mining going. Not going to knock a guy for trying to put food on the table but this kind of double & triple dipping seems WAY out of hand. The GRC connection is only the beginning.

I don't see an issue with this. The code is open source so you can freely copy it. There's no attribution to GridCoin in the code which is wrong...  Even if the code was copied verbatim, you still need to adapt, modify, and test for BiblePay. I doubt it is just copy & paste.

[zthomasz]

I am a core dev on Gridcoin, and I can categorically say that the lead Gridcoin dev's post is absolutely right. Rob departed on amicable terms and remains on friendly terms. His vision for Gridcoin was simply different than the community's. Rob wanted to take Gridcoin in the direction of DASH masternodes, whereas the rest of the community wanted to keep Gridcoin based on Bitcoin's core code, bringing it up to date with the current bitcoin core, and implementing new features in accordance with the Gridcoin 4.0 roadmap. We are executing on this roadmap.

Thanks for the info. So Rob/biblepay is the same Rob referenced in Wikipedia's Gridcoin article?

"Gridcoin was officially launched October 16, 2013 by its pseudonym developer Rob Halförd."

[thesnat21]

I am a core dev on Gridcoin, and I can categorically say that the lead Gridcoin dev's post is absolutely right. Rob departed on amicable terms and remains on friendly terms. His vision for Gridcoin was simply different than the community's. Rob wanted to take Gridcoin in the direction of DASH masternodes, whereas the rest of the community wanted to keep Gridcoin based on Bitcoin's core code, bringing it up to date with the current bitcoin core, and implementing new features in accordance with the Gridcoin 4.0 roadmap. We are executing on this roadmap.

Thanks for the info. So Rob/biblepay is the same Rob referenced in Wikipedia's Gridcoin article?

"Gridcoin was officially launched October 16, 2013 by its pseudonym developer Rob Halförd."

Rob has not confirmed,  and unfortunately despite many assumptions I don't know we can say 100%.

[thesnat21]

Additional updates:

• MIP now has full github access as our second dev
• forum.biblepay.org ownership has transferred to Thesnat21, some structure changes have been implemented.

I don't want to understate the importance of these.. 

Having a second dev with access to github is a huge step towards decentralization.

and now "forum.biblepay.org" is no longer run by Rob.
We are looking to build a better community there, and will be having some more in-depth discussions on that forum than we can really do here, please join us!

[togoshigekata]

I created a 3rd ANN thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5067231.0

[inblue]

I created a 3rd ANN thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5067231.0

Again a self-moderated thread? Even though your intentions are now good, nobody can know what could happen in the future, who will disagree with whom, who will be on which side etc.

The only way a thread is valid if it's not a self-moderated one. That way it doesn't matter who started it because they cannot censor the posts. The only posts which do need to be deleted are straight-up profanity, hard insults etc. And for that we already have the moderators of this forum, so there is not a single reason to have a self-moderated thread, unless the OP is scared of somebody sharing thoughts which don't align with their views.

[togoshigekata]

I created a 3rd ANN thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5067231.0

Again a self-moderated thread? Even though your intentions are now good, nobody can know what could happen in the future, who will disagree with whom, who will be on which side etc.

The only way a thread is valid if it's not a self-moderated one. That way it doesn't matter who started it because they cannot censor the posts. The only posts which do need to be deleted are straight-up profanity, hard insults etc. And for that we already have the moderators of this forum, so there is not a single reason to have a self-moderated thread, unless the OP is scared of somebody sharing thoughts which don't align with their views.

The original ANN thread was Unmoderated, but sadly it had to be locked because of the spammers/trolls

There are Bitcointalk forum admins, but they have limited time/interest
and they have their own opinions/biases (their own rules basically say they can do what they want haha)

The Unmoderated thread got kind of crazy, and I believe most of it was not against the forum rules

I think there is a need for a Moderated thread, but who should be the Moderator? I dont know,
it would be great if it could be a community system vs a dictatorship

I offer an alternative to Robs thread since there currently is no alternative,
I also offer an alternative design

I doubt my thread will get used, Im not pushing for it, just opening it as an option

Rob has shown to be slow to update the ANN,
and for months he purposefully left out critical keywords from the title

Rob is a busy man, he has other priorities and work he is doing,
I believe we need more people to step up and do things

But anyways, I would support trying out a non-moderated thread again

If we stay self moderated though, I believe we need to discuss and make clear our forum rules