Let's finally remove Locked and Self Mod topics from the Marketplace

[Steamtyme]

I know this has been kicked around a few times, but I couldn't find a solid discussion around it and reasoning behind keeping this feature available to all. I've only seen a handful of threads that don't appear to be scammy by nature using either of these features in the Marketplace. When I say locked topics I'm only referring to being able to toggle the feature for bumping. I'm not even proposing an outright elimination of the feature, this could be a feature some users could be whitelisted for by Admins or Marketplace Mods. A good example of a whitelistable account might be brokers maintaining a large amount of items in 1 thread.

Maybe I'm missing something but it seems the bad far outweighs the good by keeping these features available for everyone, considering it's the go to move for Newbie accounts looking for a quick score. The few users who feel their topic will be spammed or they may be harassed can make use of the "report to moderator" function. The rest of the threads will be open to have reasonable questions asked and discussion to take place on this forum, considering this is where the Ads are placed. It will still depend on members to ask the right questions but I think there are plenty out there that patrol and will do just that.

There have in the past been concerns as well around these features empowering and protecting the potential scams themselves. They can spread false information about escrows gear and anything they really want with little recourse available. There is no way apart from leaving feedback and hoping people believe it or are not convinced it's frivolous through whatever means of contact these people use. I get it that it's still up to people to do their due diligence and they should catch these tricks, but unfortunately a lot of us learn the hard way. It's an unfortunate by product of the protections certain banks and cards have afforded us.

With the recent steps to display a warning based on DT trust to logged out users. I'm hoping we can take further steps to improve the Marketplace through transparency, functionality and safety.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

I don’t like self moderated topics anywhere. They’re open to manipulation & dishonesty.

I know there are situations where it can be seen as a positive to have them but if it was up to me (which it clearly isn’t) I’d do away with them altogether.

Just a personal preference, don’t shoot the messenger

[STT]

I think self mod is a positive but the posts should remain viewable by at least some as an option, so they dont display as part of the discussion but as an option are revealable on request.    Obviously if this is possible the participants on the thread can call out any bad action to deceive but it also gives OP the ability to remove rubbish and OT posts from the flow of conversation

display a warning based on DT trust to logged out users.

I saw that recently and thought it should be displayed as clearly for everyone, on new accounts that start threads at least

[legendster]

I don’t like self moderated topics anywhere. They’re open to manipulation & dishonesty.

I know there are situations where it can be seen as a positive to have them but if it was up to me (which it clearly isn’t) I’d do away with them altogether.

Just a personal preference, don’t shoot the messenger

Self mod topics have been historically effective at curbing shitposts - at least on my threads. So I don't agree with your message messenger. If you were in Sparta, you'd be at the bottom of a well now  

[The Cryptovator]

To be honest, very less people's using self moderated thread to prevent spam. Most of use self moderated thread for manipulation. On the other hand, one of main scammy activity is, "sell on lock thread". Those users try to sell by locked thread that means there is something wrong, and personally I believe that kind of behaviour is one of symptom of scam.

However, I am not fan of self moderated thread but it would change based on user rank. Self moderated thread should be disable below full member rank.

[STT]

^^ Thats a good compromise, someone known to the forum should have far more ability and discretion then somebody who only just appeared and is far more likely to operate in a way outside forum rules as they are not even taking part in discussions for much time.

[Mpamaegbu]

I don’t like self moderated topics anywhere. They’re open to manipulation & dishonesty.

I know there are situations where it can be seen as a positive to have them but if it was up to me (which it clearly isn’t) I’d do away with them altogether.

Just a personal preference, don’t shoot the messenger

What positive are you talking about? That self moderated thread prevent spamming, right? Oh, please come on. If spam were the issue the posts could be deleted. But the evil about such threads is that they stiffen freedom of speech. I think this causes more harm than good.

[JaredKaragen]

I don’t like self moderated topics anywhere. They’re open to manipulation & dishonesty.

I know there are situations where it can be seen as a positive to have them but if it was up to me (which it clearly isn’t) I’d do away with them altogether.

Just a personal preference, don’t shoot the messenger

Self mod topics have been historically effective at curbing shitposts - at least on my threads. So I don't agree with your message messenger. If you were in Sparta, you'd be at the bottom of a well now  

Same;  You get one person with a wrong conception or stick up their butt and end up with 3 pages of useless posts that are far off topic.... usually if I delete posts on my few self-moderated threads, I will leave a quote reference chain where it ended and delete the rest.... see my xmr-stak thread for a prime example.


However;


I do agree that self moderated threads do not belong in the marketplace section.


Anyone complaining of "freedom of speech"  look into the TOS agreement you said yes to when you signed up.   Second;  this is a privately owned website;  not a public one..... don't act as if it is such.

[Steamtyme]

I agree self-moderated topics can serve a purpose outside of the Marketplace. There was an initiative a while back where some members created all topics this way. The idea was they were going to reduce the workload on the Mods by deleting Spam and off-topic themselves. Whether you agree with them or not in discussion threads is up to you, and you can choose to post there accordingly.

The purpose of this thread is only in relation to Marketplace sections.

However, I am not fan of self moderated thread but it would change based on user rank. Self moderated thread should be disable below full member rank.

I disagree anyone has the capacity to use it properly or abuse it, irregardless of rank. That's why I like the idea of needing to be whitelisted. The requirement might be your account needs to have enough substance a Mod can make a determination on whether you need it or not; or if it's a net benefit to allow someone to use it.

[Oyarebu]

<..snip..>

However, I am not fan of self moderated thread but it would change based on user rank. Self moderated thread should be disable below full member rank.

I disagree anyone has the capacity to use it properly or abuse it, irregardless of rank. That's why I like the idea of needing to be whitelisted. The requirement might be your account needs to have enough substance a Mod can make a determination on whether you need it or not; or if it's a net benefit to allow someone to use it.

^^ agree with your take because, i took time to read through reputation and scam section of the forum, and discovered that, many questionable accounts on reputation and scams accusation are more of high rank member accounts than lower accounts, so, it will be unfair to the lower class. In the light of the requirement, that wouldn't be fair either as there are likely to be favoritism from MODS, which could possibly result to another struggle between forum members and MOD in question. Let it be disable irrespective of ranks, thanks.

[CryptopreneurBrainboss]

I don't see any harm a self moderated thread does I feel it should be encouraged across all baords including even meta. Lets observe the board in question (Marketplace boards and subboard) a self moderated thread helps to prevent off topic replies and sig spam reducing the workload on moderators. If you feel a self moderated thread will encourage scams then don't patronize goods or services started with a self moderated thread from a member you don't trust.

In as much as you want freedom of speech you still have to respect OP decisions. I do observe off topic replys on service thread that if a self moderated option was active it would had done the trick in deleting such irrelevant discussions. Self moderated thread helps prevent irrelevant discussions so it shouldn't be discouraged.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

Self mod topics have been historically effective at curbing shitposts - at least on my threads. So I don't agree with your message messenger. If you were in Sparta, you'd be at the bottom of a well now  

We’re not in Sparta though are we. We’re adult males living in the present day, not some fantasy film shit.

[hilariousetc]

The few users who feel their topic will be spammed or they may be harassed can make use of the "report to moderator" function. The rest of the threads will be open to have reasonable questions asked and discussion to take place on this forum, considering this is where the Ads are placed. It will still depend on members to ask the right questions but I think there are plenty out there that patrol and will do just that.

Whilst they can be abused they're also great for keeping trolls and spammers out of your own thread. If people don't like the moderation here (or lack thereof then they can moderate their own threads how they see fit). Mods rarely get involved with trolling or users just being annoying (and that is obviously completely subjective) so users should moderate their own threads and make up their own rules if they want. It others don't like it then they can either not post in those threads or create their own for censor free discussion. You can even self-moderate that one if you want and mod it how you like. Sure, there are lots of scammers taking advantage of it also but to me a self-modded and locked thread is a huge alarm bell and now we even have warnings for outside users if they're marked so I think people should just use their own initiative and protect themselves rather than relying on the forum to protect against scammers.

There have in the past been concerns as well around these features empowering and protecting the potential scams themselves. They can spread false information about escrows gear and anything they really want with little recourse available.

Staff don't moderate scams so that's what the feedback system is for.

[Steamtyme]

I'm in no way denying the benefits that people may find in using these threads, I just think it's a small number within the marketplace. I also am not expecting Mods to begin identifying and fighting scams. I decided to look at it this way, Are they a net positive in the Marketplace?

Yes the feedback system has the potential to deal with warnings being placed, that only happens if someone in that users trust list gets there first and tags that thread as they see fit. This is all sideways from my main point though. I  just don't see the overall benefit to these being an option in the Marketplace.

Is there really any reason that the Marketplace can't evolve to provide a better (imo)  overall user experience without imposing rules. It could be seen with the same argument as not being able to edit posts in Auctions.

[legendster]

To be honest, very less people's using self moderated thread to prevent spam. Most of use self moderated thread for manipulation. On the other hand, one of main scammy activity is, "sell on lock thread". Those users try to sell by locked thread that means there is something wrong, and personally I believe that kind of behaviour is one of symptom of scam.

However, I am not fan of self moderated thread but it would change based on user rank. Self moderated thread should be disable below full member rank.

So anyone below a certain rank is automatically a scammer.

Got it.

Self mod topics have been historically effective at curbing shitposts - at least on my threads. So I don't agree with your message messenger. If you were in Sparta, you'd be at the bottom of a well now  

We’re not in Sparta though are we. We’re adult males living in the present day, not some fantasy film shit.

Sparta was real.

Not all of us here are males.

That film was no shit.

Not all of us are adults.

[The Cryptovator]

I disagree anyone has the capacity to use it properly or abuse it, irregardless of rank. That's why I like the idea of needing to be whitelisted. The requirement might be your account needs to have enough substance a Mod can make a determination on whether you need it or not; or if it's a net benefit to allow someone to use it.

Sound is like moderate thread by forum moderator. Who will be responsible if in case happen any scams from self moderated thread? if its whitelisted by forum moderators? Usually forum user will raise question why moderators approved this self moderated threads? But id its auto whitelisted based on rank then I don't think there will remain any space to raise question if anyone get scam. Because that time it will be a normal procedure.

[Pmalek]

I see no problem in having self-moderated threads anywhere on the forum but I agree with OP that locked threads should be removed from the marketplace. If a thread is locked immediately after the thread is started those threads should be removed since it is a big red flag.

A question to those who report a lot: What happens when you report a closed thread in the marketplace? How is your report treated?

[erikalui]

Already discussed "n" number of times and as I already stated my reason here, I don't see a reason why self-moderated option should be disabled. The problem of having newbies or scammers on this forum is not a new one and it has also been discussed a billion times how to stop/prevent it but none has been implemented or even "considered".

A good example of a whitelistable account might be brokers maintaining a large amount of items in 1 thread.

So another way of giving SOME users an advantage over the others like DT and most merited members? Why? Other members have no right to use the marketplace of bitcointalk and prevent spam?

Maybe I'm missing something but it seems the bad far outweighs the good by keeping these features available for everyone, considering it's the go to move for Newbie accounts looking for a quick score. The few users who feel their topic will be spammed or they may be harassed can make use of the "report to moderator" function. The rest of the threads will be open to have reasonable questions asked and discussion to take place on this forum, considering this is where the Ads are placed. It will still depend on members to ask the right questions but I think there are plenty out there that patrol and will do just that.

Moderators don't remove posts that appear "harassing", "trolling", "personal attacks" and so on. Even doxxing is allow and only SPAM posts are deleted so no point of the @bold.

There have in the past been concerns as well around these features empowering and protecting the potential scams themselves. They can spread false information about escrows gear and anything they really want with little recourse available. There is no way apart from leaving feedback and hoping people believe it or are not convinced it's frivolous through whatever means of contact these people use. I get it that it's still up to people to do their due diligence and they should catch these tricks, but unfortunately a lot of us learn the hard way. It's an unfortunate by product of the protections certain banks and cards have afforded us.

The scamming problem is a problem the DT members deal with. If you find anything fishy, report to them.


Nothing new has been said here at all.

[STT]

Here is an example below, I think also not allowing a brand new account these privileges would help.    The very basic scam which I presume works enough times, is he asks for payment first and delivers zero.

 _please do avoid taking part in this scam_ - Link  

To me the main danger comes from the brand new account with no history, similar things happen on twitter with crypto addresses as part of it.   When I first signed upto the forum we posted in the newbies section and otherwise read only in the other parts of the forum, then after a while you learnt a bit and could post.  Now day 1 there is a burden of dealing with the immediate risk of accounts with no history to them.
A newbie should at least require an advocate to co sign a new thread ?

[PrimeNumber7]

To be honest, very less people's using self moderated thread to prevent spam. Most of use self moderated thread for manipulation. On the other hand, one of main scammy activity is, "sell on lock thread". Those users try to sell by locked thread that means there is something wrong, and personally I believe that kind of behaviour is one of symptom of scam.
 

I proposed not very long ago that a good solution would be to not allow someone to actively try to sell or buy publicly when their thread is locked.

Do not create locked topics requesting PM's or communication via other platforms.

I cannot think of a legitimate reason why someone would do this.

If you will not be active on the forum to check your thread very often, you can provide alternative contact methods and a note on your OP that you may not quickly see any replies.

I have seen many people who are transparently scamming do exactly this, sometimes with fake reviews. The warning shown on OPs who have negative trust shown to guests is a step in the right direction, but I think it should be a rule that active sales threads that are locked are not allowed. This should not prevent locking a thread while a sale is "paused",  "on hold", or "temporarily out of inventory".

Maybe a good solution would be in order to lock a thread, the OP must select a choice of if his transaction is "finished" or if he "intends to resume the transaction at a later time". An "automod" message (similar to what is used on Reddit) could be prominently displayed.

Someone could obviously still sell via PM, but they would be advertising that their trades are finished or on hold.