[ANN][0.8.6] Hirocoin - X11 - NGW - Secured Blockchain - Time Warp Limitation

[tempestb]

Yeah, I've seen that and I know he's working on that.  However, the range of reward to me still seems too high.  If 400 is the high water mark and (I forget what the low is, like 200?)  I don't know how this helps.

You're still flooding the market with too many coins.  I think you can look at API's and take a sampling from every exchange and then conduct an average and build the price into the Blockchain through consensus.  Then the reward is severely reduced when the value of the coin is low.  Or if you can't reduce the reward, tie to difficulty, make it really difficult to find a block if the value of the coin is low.

You might not have a lot of miners there, but that could be adjusted through an increase in fees to make up for the shortfall from the reward.

If your example is the way it will end up being, I suggest making the coin production very small when difficulty is really low.  Give the market time to absorb the inventory of coins that are already out there.   

You can't keep giving away 200 coins every ten minutes (Or whatever metric Hiro uses) when you have people selling half a million coins for 103 Satoshi.  Why even mine?  Just go buy coins, it's cheaper than wasting your electric bill on this.  I get the "Hope for the future" stuff, but you'd help the coin more by purchasing the inventory than wasting time mining it.

You have to reduce the number of coins significantly when the value is low.  When foreign countries have too much free cash, they purchase foreign debt.  That ties the money down for X number of years and provides a small amount of interest to compensate for the lack of investment.  Otherwise there would be tons of cash and inflation would skyrocket. 

Since there is no central economy here, you can't just take the tax dollars and invest the cash into foreign debt.  But you CAN squelch supply.

It'd be better to tie it to the actually value so mining pools can't game the system, but barring that your solution is good but the minimal reward needs to be significantly smaller in my opinion.

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[OmarGsPools]

Yeah, I've seen that and I know he's working on that.  However, the range of reward to me still seems too high.  If 400 is the high water mark and (I forget what the low is, like 200?)  I don't know how this helps.

You're still flooding the market with too many coins.  I think you can look at API's and take a sampling from every exchange and then conduct an average and build the price into the Blockchain through consensus.  Then the reward is severely reduced when the value of the coin is low.  Or if you can't reduce the reward, tie to difficulty, make it really difficult to find a block if the value of the coin is low.

You might not have a lot of miners there, but that could be adjusted through an increase in fees to make up for the shortfall from the reward.

If your example is the way it will end up being, I suggest making the coin production very small when difficulty is really low.  Give the market time to absorb the inventory of coins that are already out there.   

You can't keep giving away 200 coins every ten minutes (Or whatever metric Hiro uses) when you have people selling half a million coins for 103 Satoshi.  Why even mine?  Just go buy coins, it's cheaper than wasting your electric bill on this.  I get the "Hope for the future" stuff, but you'd help the coin more by purchasing the inventory than wasting time mining it.

You have to reduce the number of coins significantly when the value is low.  When foreign countries have too much free cash, they purchase foreign debt.  That ties the money down for X number of years and provides a small amount of interest to compensate for the lack of investment.  Otherwise there would be tons of cash and inflation would skyrocket. 

Since there is no central economy here, you can't just take the tax dollars and invest the cash into foreign debt.  But you CAN squelch supply.

It'd be better to tie it to the actually value so mining pools can't game the system, but barring that your solution is good but the minimal reward needs to be significantly smaller in my opinion.

The high is 400 and the low is 80. So we'd never be in a worse position of over saturating the market than we are in now.

Coin production will be very small when difficulty is very low, to do exactly what you just said and give the market time to absorb the inventory of coins out there. Take another look at the proposal as it's now linked in the ANN post. I feel that it does exactly what you're suggesting.

[lyaffe2]

Omar and Hiro, I truly appreciate your work and your long term thinking. The roadmap looks impressive, even if you are able to implement only part of it, this will still provide benefit to the community.
I know these are tough times for you but hang in there. Your persistence and dedication will pay off !
To show my appreciation I just placed a buy order on Mintpal.

[huige007]

Directions icon English is not good. Do not understand. Who translated under Chinese

[OmarGsPools]

Omar and Hiro, I truly appreciate your work and your long term thinking. The roadmap looks impressive, even if you are able to implement only part of it, this will still provide benefit to the community.
I know these are tough times for you but hang in there. Your persistence and dedication will pay off !
To show my appreciation I just placed a buy order on Mintpal.

Thanks! It's good to hear feedback like this.

Directions icon English is not good. Do not understand. Who translated under Chinese

I will see if there was a Chinese translation done previously and add it to the ANN post.

[popolite11]

good coin!

how is this good as the market value decreased a lot.

[Unkn0vn]

It is good, and the value is low... hmm buy time ?

[huige007]

I'm ready to invest this coin, plans to go mining machine mining year.

[tempestb]

When the coin hits 100 days, based on the block reward being every minute instead of every ten minutes like BTC, we're looking at there being 57.6 million coins in circulation already.

What was the thought process that went into making so many coins available? 

Even with the new 80 coins per block minimal, you're still looking at adding another 11.52 million coins in another 100 days.

Too many coins.  You're adding 115,200 coins to the market a day.  The buyers aren't buying that many coins in a day.  So you're going to quickly destroy the value of the coin (Though you'll do it slower than the current mining reward which is 576,000 coins a day) because you're just picking a number out of thin air to restrict the mining reward to. 

The only reason Hiro Coin is worth 100 Satoshi right now is because I have buy walls on Mintpal, Poloniex, and Bittrex keeping it there.  And yes, I have a sh*t ton of coins.

You need to severely reduce the amount miners are getting so the value can go up.  Miners are not going to mine a worthless coin unless they are just in it for the future potential.

I say cut the reward down to 5 per block at minimal difficulty.  That puts it in-line with Bitcoin when Bitcoin launched.  Which is 50 coins every 10 minutes.  Then you can increase distribution as the difficulty goes up.

80 is too high.  You can't absorb the coin inventory you have now, let alone dropping 115,200 coins a day on it.  At 5, the maximum coin drop is 7,200 which is easy to absorb and will increase the value once we get a handle on what is already there.

[ClutchThese]

When the coin hits 100 days, based on the block reward being every minute instead of every ten minutes like BTC, we're looking at there being 57.6 million coins in circulation already.

What was the thought process that went into making so many coins available? 

Even with the new 80 coins per block minimal, you're still looking at adding another 11.52 million coins in another 100 days.

Too many coins.  You're adding 115,200 coins to the market a day.  The buyers aren't buying that many coins in a day.  So you're going to quickly destroy the value of the coin (Though you'll do it slower than the current mining reward which is 576,000 coins a day) because you're just picking a number out of thin air to restrict the mining reward to. 

The only reason Hiro Coin is worth 100 Satoshi right now is because I have buy walls on Mintpal, Poloniex, and Bittrex keeping it there.  And yes, I have a sh*t ton of coins.

You need to severely reduce the amount miners are getting so the value can go up.  Miners are not going to mine a worthless coin unless they are just in it for the future potential.

I say cut the reward down to 5 per block at minimal difficulty.  That puts it in-line with Bitcoin when Bitcoin launched.  Which is 50 coins every 10 minutes.  Then you can increase distribution as the difficulty goes up.

80 is too high.  You can't absorb the coin inventory you have now, let alone dropping 115,200 coins a day on it.  At 5, the maximum coin drop is 7,200 which is easy to absorb and will increase the value once we get a handle on what is already there.

Or focus on marketing the coin and having it accepted at marketplaces.

[tempestb]

Or focus on marketing the coin and having it accepted at marketplaces.

Honestly, the developers aren't going to do that in any real sense.  It's up to other people with drive to buy up a lot of the coins and then try to sell the use of that coin so they can get profits from its adoption.  It's a currency, so anyone can invest in it and then try to make it useful.  (Though, it goes back to my earlier discussion that the only way you're really going to get people to use this coin is if it does something that people want to use over the other choices that are out there.  But for now, we're focused on tightening the mining supply of coins.  The road map points to some point of sale features to be added later.  Though it is very doubtful that anyone will use these if the coin has no benefits over using Bitcoin, Litecoin or the various other coins that are out there.)

It needs some further innovation to stand out. 

In the short term though, restricting the ridiculous number of coins being produced should be the primary focus, since it is constantly diluting the value.

[OmarGsPools]

When the coin hits 100 days, based on the block reward being every minute instead of every ten minutes like BTC, we're looking at there being 57.6 million coins in circulation already.

What was the thought process that went into making so many coins available? 

Even with the new 80 coins per block minimal, you're still looking at adding another 11.52 million coins in another 100 days.

Too many coins.  You're adding 115,200 coins to the market a day.  The buyers aren't buying that many coins in a day.  So you're going to quickly destroy the value of the coin (Though you'll do it slower than the current mining reward which is 576,000 coins a day) because you're just picking a number out of thin air to restrict the mining reward to. 

The only reason Hiro Coin is worth 100 Satoshi right now is because I have buy walls on Mintpal, Poloniex, and Bittrex keeping it there.  And yes, I have a sh*t ton of coins.

You need to severely reduce the amount miners are getting so the value can go up.  Miners are not going to mine a worthless coin unless they are just in it for the future potential.

I say cut the reward down to 5 per block at minimal difficulty.  That puts it in-line with Bitcoin when Bitcoin launched.  Which is 50 coins every 10 minutes.  Then you can increase distribution as the difficulty goes up.

80 is too high.  You can't absorb the coin inventory you have now, let alone dropping 115,200 coins a day on it.  At 5, the maximum coin drop is 7,200 which is easy to absorb and will increase the value once we get a handle on what is already there.

At 115,200 HIRO produced daily we will require 0.1152 BTC to buy ALL HIRO produced that day. I don't think that is anywhere near too much and will not quickly destroy the value of the coin. At 5 HIRO a day you're suggesting that we'd produce 7,200 HIRO daily which would require 0.0072 BTC daily to buy. That's a bit extreme and definitely skews the distribution to anyone who holds/buys HIRO now.

You stated early that a unique reward model like this would attract investors as they'd know the supply would adjust to demand in order to protect their investment which it will. This is a step in the right direction and will provide us with some uniqueness and an advantage over other coins. Yes services will have to be developed for HIRO so that we can truly be used as a transactional cryptocurrency. The Point of Sales page will finally allow merchants and regular users to accept HIRO as their preferred method of payment. What we can offer now is security in using HIRO as a payment platform and stability in price. We aim to provide more for our users as we continue development.

[tempestb]

At 115,200 HIRO produced daily we will require 0.1152 BTC to buy ALL HIRO produced that day. I don't think that is anywhere near too much and will not quickly destroy the value of the coin. At 5 HIRO a day you're suggesting that we'd produce 7,200 HIRO daily which would require 0.0072 BTC daily to buy. That's a bit extreme and definitely skews the distribution to anyone who holds/buys HIRO now.

You stated early that a unique reward model like this would attract investors as they'd know the supply would adjust to demand in order to protect their investment which it will. This is a step in the right direction and will provide us with some uniqueness and an advantage over other coins. Yes services will have to be developed for HIRO so that we can truly be used as a transactional cryptocurrency. The Point of Sales page will finally allow merchants and regular users to accept HIRO as their preferred method of payment. What we can offer now is security in using HIRO as a payment platform and stability in price. We aim to provide more for our users as we continue development.

I am saying that you produce 7,200 HIRO daily, because then the coin becomes more valuable.  Of course it helps people who own coins now, there are around 50 million coins right now.  You have to absorb this.  If you go on any exchange (not sure you do) the total invested is less than a few Bitcoin and most of those are probably self adjusting arbitrage bots that will pull the walls when it no longer makes financial sense to have them for trades.  There is no HIRO economy.  You have to restrict the supply to grow the value.

You're incorrectly saying that the market can absorb about $60 in Bitcoin per day.  No it can't.  I'm the guy buying your 100 Satoshi Hirocoin right now.  When I'm not buying the value plummets to less than 90 very quickly and it takes one good dump to wipe out the market completely.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I can personally wipe out the value of Hiro Coin.  I have more coins than there are Asks. 

So when it is worth 1 Satoshi, is that when you think, "Hey maybe this isn't a good idea to pour hundreds of thousands of more coins into the market."

You just don't seem to be connecting reality to your observation that 80 coins a minute is fine.  It might have been fine if the coin had just launched, but you have 50 million some coins out there right now.  Anyone carrying a load of those coins can wipe out the market pretty easily.  And then this coin is dead...

[OmarGsPools]

At 115,200 HIRO produced daily we will require 0.1152 BTC to buy ALL HIRO produced that day. I don't think that is anywhere near too much and will not quickly destroy the value of the coin. At 5 HIRO a day you're suggesting that we'd produce 7,200 HIRO daily which would require 0.0072 BTC daily to buy. That's a bit extreme and definitely skews the distribution to anyone who holds/buys HIRO now.

You stated early that a unique reward model like this would attract investors as they'd know the supply would adjust to demand in order to protect their investment which it will. This is a step in the right direction and will provide us with some uniqueness and an advantage over other coins. Yes services will have to be developed for HIRO so that we can truly be used as a transactional cryptocurrency. The Point of Sales page will finally allow merchants and regular users to accept HIRO as their preferred method of payment. What we can offer now is security in using HIRO as a payment platform and stability in price. We aim to provide more for our users as we continue development.

I am saying that you produce 7,200 HIRO daily, because then the coin becomes more valuable.  Of course it helps people who own coins now, there are around 50 million coins right now.  You have to absorb this.  If you go on any exchange (not sure you do) the total invested is less than a few Bitcoin and most of those are probably self adjusting arbitrage bots that will pull the walls when it no longer makes financial sense to have them for trades.  There is no HIRO economy.  You have to restrict the supply to grow the value.

You're incorrectly saying that the market can absorb about $60 in Bitcoin per day.  No it can't.  I'm the guy buying your 100 Satoshi Hirocoin right now.  When I'm not buying the value plummets to less than 90 very quickly and it takes one good dump to wipe out the market completely.  In fact, I'm pretty sure I can personally wipe out the value of Hiro Coin.  I have more coins than there are Asks. 

So when it is worth 1 Satoshi, is that when you think, "Hey maybe this isn't a good idea to pour hundreds of thousands of more coins into the market."

You just don't seem to be connecting reality to your observation that 80 coins a minute is fine.  It might have been fine if the coin had just launched, but you have 50 million some coins out there right now.  Anyone carrying a load of those coins can wipe out the market pretty easily.  And then this coin is dead...

The future development and features that we add to HIRO will create demand and should easily create $60 in buy orders per day. Even if the $60 buyer was just a trader, buying a whole coin's supply daily for only $60 seems to be quite the deal.

80 coins a minute is fine in my opinion and 5 is too extreme,but you can voice your opinion and vote on the poll. The community does have their say in this matter.

[tempestb]

The future development and features that we add to HIRO will create demand and should easily create $60 in buy orders per day. Even if the $60 buyer was just a trader, buying a whole coin's supply daily for only $60 seems to be quite the deal.

80 coins a minute is fine in my opinion and 5 is too extreme,but you can voice your opinion and vote on the poll. The community does have their say in this matter.

As an investor, what is it about the future features that are going to raise the value?  Other Alt currencies have Android apps and Point of Sale tools.  They have block explorers and skinned interfaces.  And then they get delisted because they are worth nothing. 

We disagree.  I'm fine with that.  I'm only going to buy so many millions of Hiro Coin though, and then if all you guys have is just recompiling same old source and no real innovations, I'll just dump it all and move on.  I have hope that Hiro thinks seriously about what it will take to make the coin attractive and offer something unique to the consumer to make them interested in it.  So far, based on what I've seen on the roadmap though it isn't there yet.  Not to say what you guys are planning isn't necessary.  It is.  But it's not going to increase the value.

Maybe I'll drop my buy walls down to 50 Satoshi so you can see where this is going.

[equalizer]

At 115,200 HIRO produced daily we will require 0.1152 BTC to buy ALL HIRO produced that day. I don't think that is anywhere near too much and will not quickly destroy the value of the coin. At 5 HIRO a day you're suggesting that we'd produce 7,200 HIRO daily which would require 0.0072 BTC daily to buy. That's a bit extreme and definitely skews the distribution to anyone who holds/buys HIRO now.

We're at a point where extreme ideas should be considered especially if they address a known issue. To tempestb's point, investors like us (those who hold a whole lot of hirocoins) need a reason to hang onto our coins. In the absence of one, we're talking about millions of these coins being flooded into the market, in addition to the 115,200 HIRO produced per day from mining...what would that end up doing to the coin's value?

I've seen tempestb's buy walls across the exchanges, and it's pretty clear without these, the price of hiro would easily be in the 60-70 sat by now; possibly even lower as there have been days when buy pressure was severely lacking (his walls have actually brought on additional buyers).

How about a reward model that is broken up into phases with milestones attached to each? The first phase introduces a substantial scarcity of hirocoin. During this time, we give the coin a chance to recover, and if it hits a target we set as a community, that's a trigger to go into Phase 2 where the production of hirocoins is allowed to increase. Then phase 3 and so on. The rewards can remain dynamic per phase, but the swings are tighter and far lower at the start.

[OmarGsPools]

At 115,200 HIRO produced daily we will require 0.1152 BTC to buy ALL HIRO produced that day. I don't think that is anywhere near too much and will not quickly destroy the value of the coin. At 5 HIRO a day you're suggesting that we'd produce 7,200 HIRO daily which would require 0.0072 BTC daily to buy. That's a bit extreme and definitely skews the distribution to anyone who holds/buys HIRO now.

We're at a point where extreme ideas should be considered especially if they address a known issue. To tempestb's point, investors like us (those who hold a whole lot of hirocoins) need a reason to hang onto our coins. In the absence of one, we're talking about millions of these coins being flooded into the market, in addition to the 115,200 HIRO produced per day from mining...what would that end up doing to the coin's value?

I've seen tempestb's buy walls across the exchanges, and it's pretty clear without these, the price of hiro would easily be in the 60-70 sat by now; possibly even lower as there have been days when buy pressure was severely lacking (his walls have actually brought on additional buyers).

How about a reward model that is broken up into phases with milestones attached to each? The first phase introduces a substantial scarcity of hirocoin. During this time, we give the coin a chance to recover, and if it hits a target we set as a community, that's a trigger to go into Phase 2 where the production of hirocoins is allowed to increase. Then phase 3 and so on. The rewards can remain dynamic per phase, but the swings are tighter and far lower at the start.

Below 115,200 HIRO would be extreme in my opinion, but I can bring it up to the rest of the team and get their thoughts. If we fail to create a mere $60 in buy orders to buy ALL HIRO produced daily I think we've failed. Even without the buy walls at 100 satoshi, we've had at least 0.5BTC in volume daily which is incredibly low, but enough to absorb 80 HIRO block rewards.

The reward model as of now is similar except it will be in place hopefully for the foreseeable future in order to provide price stabilization. But I get your point that you'd like to see a more scarce reward in order for the market to recover. I'll let Hiro know about these suggestions and see what he thinks.

[tempestb]

Keep in mind, we're talking about the minimal difficulty here for the scarcist reward.  As soon as the coin gains in value, it will be mined more, the difficulty goes up, and you're giving out more coins anyway. 

I think what equalizer is saying is spot on, give the coin a chance to recover on the market.  You've got twice as many coins in circulation right now than Bitcoin will ever have in a hundred years. 

[Hippie Tech]

At 115,200 HIRO produced daily we will require 0.1152 BTC to buy ALL HIRO produced that day. I don't think that is anywhere near too much and will not quickly destroy the value of the coin. At 5 HIRO a day you're suggesting that we'd produce 7,200 HIRO daily which would require 0.0072 BTC daily to buy. That's a bit extreme and definitely skews the distribution to anyone who holds/buys HIRO now.

We're at a point where extreme ideas should be considered especially if they address a known issue. To tempestb's point, investors like us (those who hold a whole lot of hirocoins) need a reason to hang onto our coins. In the absence of one, we're talking about millions of these coins being flooded into the market, in addition to the 115,200 HIRO produced per day from mining...what would that end up doing to the coin's value?

I've seen tempestb's buy walls across the exchanges, and it's pretty clear without these, the price of hiro would easily be in the 60-70 sat by now; possibly even lower as there have been days when buy pressure was severely lacking (his walls have actually brought on additional buyers).

How about a reward model that is broken up into phases with milestones attached to each? The first phase introduces a substantial scarcity of hirocoin. During this time, we give the coin a chance to recover, and if it hits a target we set as a community, that's a trigger to go into Phase 2 where the production of hirocoins is allowed to increase. Then phase 3 and so on. The rewards can remain dynamic per phase, but the swings are tighter and far lower at the start.

Below 115,200 HIRO would be extreme in my opinion, but I can bring it up to the rest of the team and get their thoughts. If we fail to create a mere $60 in buy orders to buy ALL HIRO produced daily I think we've failed. Even without the buy walls at 100 satoshi, we've had at least 0.5BTC in volume daily which is incredibly low, but enough to absorb 80 HIRO block rewards.

The reward model as of now is similar except it will be in place hopefully for the foreseeable future in order to provide price stabilization. But I get your point that you'd like to see a more scarce reward in order for the market to recover. I'll let Hiro know about these suggestions and see what he thinks.

Don't fall for it. They are likely exchange insiders and will dump, regardless of what the team decides.

The folks over at NOBL are currently under similar threat of "do or die" if the switch to PoS is not made.

[louiseth1]

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