[ANN][0.8.6] Hirocoin - X11 - NGW - Secured Blockchain - Time Warp Limitation

[maxsinner]

execoin, that is facing currently similar inflation problems as HiroCoin is reducing the block reward from 50 coins to max 20 / minimum 5 via a hardfork on the 30th of July. Let's watch how the market reacts on that one and take some notes.

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[marach]

execoin, that is facing currently similar inflation problems as HiroCoin is reducing the block reward from 50 coins to max 20 / minimum 5 via a hardfork on the 30th of July. Let's watch how the market reacts on that one and take some notes.

Hirocoin does not face inflation problems..it has demand problems. There is not demand for HIRO because the lack of marketing.

How will market react on Execoin? My guess is there will be some buzz around it when the change happens and price will rise for a while. A lot of holders will dump it. After a while when things settle down it will go down in price and noone will ever trust the coin again since they are changing the fundamentals.

[baloy]

hope Hirocoin will pick-up again... we just wish for the best for this crypto...


 

[tempestb]

Of course it has a demand problem.  The point of restricting the coins being created is to allow the market time to soak up the existing inventory of coins.  Investors like myself are not going to buy coins at 100 Satoshi when the miners are dumping half a million a day into the market.  I didn't invest in the coin to subsidize mining.  The idea behind the restrictive nature of coins during mining for Hiro Coin is that if few people are mining, fewer coins are produced, which allows investors like myself and others to buy coins and not get our investment diluted instantly by dumpers. 

When the hash rate is spread around to more miners, the reward increases (It's based on difficulty) so that there is less chance people dump huge numbers of coins on the fragile market.  There's a reason why Government's don't just produce as many dollars as possible as rapidly as possible.  They restrict the money supply to allow inflation conditions to stabilize.  Here we have a runaway train.  There is far more supply than there is take up, so before we try to absorb that supply, we need to choke off the pipe.

Miners will mine the coin when it's profitable.  It doesn't matter if you think less coins is going to hurt the coin because miners won't adopt it.  The miners will adopt it as the price rises.  The price will rise as supply is lessened.  That's simple math.

Now, of course Hiro needs to come in here with a roadmap and tell folks HOW he's going to get the coin into people's hands.  By putting effort into developing the coin and the apps around the coin.  Making it easier for third parties to develop around the coin.  We also need something that sparks interest and divides us from other coins that are basically doing the exact same stuff.  If you want to be an alternative crypto that matters, you need to have something that people want.

But that takes time for him to develop and nobody really knows what the uptake on new stuff is.  For his credit, he tried the barcode thing, but that hasn't gained much traction.

I'm all for buying millions of coins, but I'm not going to do it with half a million being produced every day.  It's ridiculous!

Nobody in their right mind is going to invest in a coin where the developer is absent, coins are being dumped, and the miners are asking for more coins.  We're on an express train to fail.  Coin restriction is only going to matter if the coin is over supplied like it is now.  Once the supply is taken up, everyone gets their coins.  It's a win win situation.  You can't mine in these conditions right now, the coin isn't worth anything.  You have to stop the oil spill, clean up the mess, and build a proper pipeline.

[marach]

Exactly, changing the supply will not change anything it will only diminish coins integrity. We have a good example in Dogecoin which have unlimited supply and no problems with the price.
HIRO only needs marketing and general adoption and recognition.

Miners will come and go as they see profit. If we want the coin to succeed we must stop to look at the coin from miners perspective but from a users perspective.
I'm sure HiroS will take the coin to the next step it's just not happening as fast as everyone wants.

[tempestb]

The coin's integrity?  What are you talking about?  The exact opposite of what you suggest might happen as well.  Investors who actually buy coins, like me, would see that the coin isn't being heavily diluted because its usage has slackened.  It's finance 101.  You don't just dump more and more cash on a market that is saturated with cash.  Dogecoin is one working example among hundreds of fail-coins.  And there is no reason to USE Hirocoin over Dogecoin, so nobody is going to invest in a coin that just benefits miners.

You have to chock off supply while mining is slow, otherwise you risk a 1 Satoshi coin that we're heading to very quickly.

We're both on the same page.  People have to adopt and use the coin.  But nobody wants to buy a coin that is going to be halved in value every day because miners are dumping it.  You have to chock off the supply of coins so that people who invest in the coin have a stable market.

The changes to get people to adopt the coin are too far away.  At the moment we don't even know if there WILL be changes because Hiro hasn't said anything and we're getting it all from Omar.  There has to be development and effort put out there to make the coin worth investing in. 

Nobody here believes that not producing coins suddenly makes the coin worth more.  What we're saying is that it slows down the rate of decay in the value of the coin and gives Hiro a chance to market the coin effectively and get investors to buy the coin.

If you leave it the way it is, dumping half a million on the market, it's killing the value and you're killing the coin.

[marach]

Investors before buying the coin should know of its supply.

We believe that the coin should be exactly like it was when it started because this is one of the basic fundamental of the crypto world.

What is the perfect coin supply then? Can it be too scarce? Not if you want to dump the coin and move to the next. At that point it doesn't matter if anyone trust the coin any longer.

[tempestb]

You're just not making any sense.  Tradition for the sake of tradition stifles innovation.  Perhaps innovation is what is needed to grow the coin, because the developer puts smart things like this into it, and doesn't just allow the coin to dilute its value because of tradition.

People really liked horse and buggy before they invented cars.  Didn't stop the buggy whip manufacturers from going out of business though.

[sorrros]

Miners will mine the coin when it's profitable.  It doesn't matter if you think less coins is going to hurt the coin because miners won't adopt it.  The miners will adopt it as the price rises.  The price will rise as supply is lessened.  That's simple math.

Mining 10 coins at 10 sat is equivalent to mining 5 coins at 20 sat isn't it? How can this be more profitable for a miner?

I would of course also like to see the price go up but arbitrarily messing up with the supply will only hurt value in the mid/long term...
Hiro is so far one of the only "new" coins that has managed to have some consistency - call it decision stability - this is valuable. 

[tempestb]

I'm not going to break down how economics of supply and demand work. 

If you're going to say that 1+1 = 2 and 2+0 also equals 2, great.  You win.  Your prize is 2.

Try and understand that there is a reason that all coins don't just exist with the entire supply at once.  Why not just give everyone 10 billion coins and say, "Use them!"   That reason is because they would be worthless.  They are given out as reward to miners to help strengthen the bockchain, but mainly they are given out sparingly to make them scarce so they maintain a value.

We're not saying that you should reduce them to nothing.  We're saying you're distributing them too fast to maintain the value.

Hiro is completely not stable.  It's heading very quickly to 1 Satoshi.  You do realize that folks like me were creating buy-walls to maintain the coin's value at the upper end, right?  But because Hiro has decided to vanish, we're not buying any more coins because we don't believe the coin has a future.

At this point, there are far more worthless coins in supply than there is any need to produce more.  There is no benefit to producing more coins.  Why?  It's cheaper to buy them than to mine them.  That's the death of any coin.  If I can buy it for less than what it takes to mine it, the coin is worthless.

Part of the reason is you are adding half a million A DAY to the already saturated market.  Any normal financial organization would stop printing money at that point.  They'd wait for the take-up to happen and the value to rise aka inflation.  Instead, we have a daily deflation which is unchecked and ruining the coin.

If the coin supply is slowed, (Not stopped, but slowed) the value rises because it isn't as quickly diluted.  As the value rises, more miners and people get involved with the coin because the coin is profitable.  At the same time, the coin reward is increased because more people are mining with it.  Before long you're right back to where you were before except now the coin is worth something and more people are using it.

None of it is a magic bullet.  But you guys who are saying, "Hey, don't change anything!  We are enjoying watching the coin die!  Let's wait for two years while Hiro creates a shopping cart plug-in so people will use it."   By then the coin is worth 1 Satoshi. 

At the end of the day, it's Hiro's coin.  If he wants to just leave it as is and watch it die, that's fine.  I'm not sinking any more money in it though.  It takes someone like Nakamoto to look at something like eCash and think, "How can I improve this?" and come up with Bitcoin, vs all the other people who sat around and folded their arms and just said, "This is how it is!  We do it because eCash works this way, and we aren't going to change it."   

Innovation is what is needed.  Someone is going to eventually improve the Cryptocurrency so that it's pushed forward.  Change is good.  It needs to continually get better.  Staying stagnant and copying what other people are doing may feel safe, but you'll never get ahead doing it that way.  Take risks, challenge what is being done, and move forward.  Hiro Coin doesn't need to be like every other coin, it needs to be better.  And IT CAN BE BETTER if Hiro wants it to be.  Any of these coins can be better than Bitcoin, it just takes the right vision and the effort to get it done. 

[marach]

The coin is not going to live (or die) because of its supply.

It is a matter of usage. Right now majority of the coins are only on exchanges and that does not have real value.
And this is the  only thing that matter at least long term. I've invested quite a lot and would love to see it prosper but changing the fundamentals is only hurt it long term. And it's masking the real problem.

I certainly hope that it stays as it is and it gets stronger on marketing side.

[OmarGsPools]

The coin is not going to live (or die) because of its supply.

It is a matter of usage. Right now majority of the coins are only on exchanges and that does not have real value.
And this is the  only thing that matter at least long term. I've invested quite a lot and would love to see it prosper but changing the fundamentals is only hurt it long term. And it's masking the real problem.

I certainly hope that it stays as it is and it gets stronger on marketing side.

Fixing the fundamentals is essential for the marketing side to succeed. Once the supply becomes dynamic it will allow us to grow in a more stable HIRO market. I agree that usage of a coin is the most important aspect and that is the focus for Hirocoin. After the fundamental change, a web wallet and PoS page for merchants are next on the list.

[marach]

The coin is not going to live (or die) because of its supply.

It is a matter of usage. Right now majority of the coins are only on exchanges and that does not have real value.
And this is the  only thing that matter at least long term. I've invested quite a lot and would love to see it prosper but changing the fundamentals is only hurt it long term. And it's masking the real problem.

I certainly hope that it stays as it is and it gets stronger on marketing side.

Fixing the fundamentals is essential for the marketing side to succeed. Once the supply becomes dynamic it will allow us to grow in a more stable HIRO market. I agree that usage of a coin is the most important aspect and that is the focus for Hirocoin. After the fundamental change, a web wallet and PoS page for merchants are next on the list.

Well this change has already been thought through and decided so all i can say now is good luck.
I'm a big supporter of this coin regardles.

[sorrros]

First, sorry if i sound like i'm criticizing.
I'm only trying to help and provide some economic perspective. We are all looking for the same thing and I have a lot of respect for you OmarG and tempestb as you guys are making things happen for Hiro.


Yet I agree with marach, the real issue is the demand.

I've read your paper OmarG and the charts make perfect sense when the demand is steep; decreasing supply should result in an increase in price. However, we observe that despite the huge drop in price the demand has not increased, which suggests a flat demand curve. Try to re-do the graph with a horizontal line for the demand and there is no impact on price of changing supply.

To note these charts are usually used in economics to understand pricing at the total market level, with total demand and total supply and NOT for a particular brand (Hiro) in a competitive market (cryptocurrencies)...

In competitive markets what you need is innovation and differentiation.

• Innovation can be counted upon thanks to HiroS.
  
• I was hoping that Hiro's differentiation would be its stability as this is differentiating vs. most other coins where teams and communities over-react and make poorly-thought-through decisions because of short-time panic (mostly related to price)...
  
  • Anyways, maybe it's not the right angle. Surely this would help in the long term. In 2 years when the shopping cart scanners will be available which coin will investors trust; the one that has changed strategy 10 times with the wind or the one that stood up through the difficult times?
    
  • And at that point Hiro would go from 1 sat to the top of the market caps! Is 2 years too long to wait in the crypto-world? Why not stand for something longer than a fad? It would it still not be so much better as an investment as any other investment outside of cryptos for such a time frame (as opposed to hours or days in the rest of the crypto-world). Hiro could stand for longevity with a much broader view than other cryptos focused on Mintpal and whatever kind of pump plays.
    
  
  The focus/absolute priority should be on building an actual community.
  
  • Your text Omar on the Hirocoin forum was not commented once, sad but true. And THIS is the issue.
  • Hiro has 200 fans on FB when Dark have 2,600 on their main page and they have a few other non-official pages. Ideas and innovation diffuse in the market through people... Adoption goes through people.
  • A first step could be a few words from HiroS on the forum/FB/Twitter; even if it's not a Hironews I'm pretty sure even 3 words about the weather will help at this stage... Dark devs may also provide a few nice quotes about HiroS to their community, couldn't they? Just a thought...
    
  
  
  By the way, with the dynamic reward system if the number of coins earned with mining drops when the hashrate goes down, wouldn't it make the coin vulnerable to a 51% attack? The snowball effect on the upside makes sense, but it may turn to be a snowball effect on the downside (price down, less miners, high risk --- consider the flat demand curve above)... It may be worth thinking of a mechanism to prevent a 51% attack if you roll-out this system anyways.
  
  
  Hope my inputs will help our community.
  
  

[sorrros]

Yes indeed if the decision has been made and the plans are rolled-out I guess we'll live with it...

Focus needs to be on the demand side anyways

[minerjoen]

I hope i am not to late guys?
Never ever heard about this coin, but my miners are on !

Everything looks verry good and interesting, nice

[OmarGsPools]

First, sorry if i sound like i'm criticizing.
I'm only trying to help and provide some economic perspective. We are all looking for the same thing and I have a lot of respect for you OmarG and tempestb as you guys are making things happen for Hiro.


Yet I agree with marach, the real issue is the demand.

I've read your paper OmarG and the charts make perfect sense when the demand is steep; decreasing supply should result in an increase in price. However, we observe that despite the huge drop in price the demand has not increased, which suggests a flat demand curve. Try to re-do the graph with a horizontal line for the demand and there is no impact on price of changing supply.

To note these charts are usually used in economics to understand pricing at the total market level, with total demand and total supply and NOT for a particular brand (Hiro) in a competitive market (cryptocurrencies)...

In competitive markets what you need is innovation and differentiation.

• Innovation can be counted upon thanks to HiroS.
  
• I was hoping that Hiro's differentiation would be its stability as this is differentiating vs. most other coins where teams and communities over-react and make poorly-thought-through decisions because of short-time panic (mostly related to price)...
  
  • Anyways, maybe it's not the right angle. Surely this would help in the long term. In 2 years when the shopping cart scanners will be available which coin will investors trust; the one that has changed strategy 10 times with the wind or the one that stood up through the difficult times?
    
  • And at that point Hiro would go from 1 sat to the top of the market caps! Is 2 years too long to wait in the crypto-world? Why not stand for something longer than a fad? It would it still not be so much better as an investment as any other investment outside of cryptos for such a time frame (as opposed to hours or days in the rest of the crypto-world). Hiro could stand for longevity with a much broader view than other cryptos focused on Mintpal and whatever kind of pump plays.
    
  
  The focus/absolute priority should be on building an actual community.
  
  • Your text Omar on the Hirocoin forum was not commented once, sad but true. And THIS is the issue.
  • Hiro has 200 fans on FB when Dark have 2,600 on their main page and they have a few other non-official pages. Ideas and innovation diffuse in the market through people... Adoption goes through people.
  • A first step could be a few words from HiroS on the forum/FB/Twitter; even if it's not a Hironews I'm pretty sure even 3 words about the weather will help at this stage... Dark devs may also provide a few nice quotes about HiroS to their community, couldn't they? Just a thought...
    
  
  
  By the way, with the dynamic reward system if the number of coins earned with mining drops when the hashrate goes down, wouldn't it make the coin vulnerable to a 51% attack? The snowball effect on the upside makes sense, but it may turn to be a snowball effect on the downside (price down, less miners, high risk --- consider the flat demand curve above)... It may be worth thinking of a mechanism to prevent a 51% attack if you roll-out this system anyways.
  
  
  Hope my inputs will help our community.
  
  
  

Thanks for the input. It was well thought out and covered some good points.

Yes, our demand is not constant and is not steep. It probably is next to flat right now. Changing the supply won't fix this but when until the demand starts to increase the new supply curve will nullify and further drops in demand from having an effect on the price.

Innovation is key and Hiro is aware of it. The dynamic supply is to provide us with an inherit price stabilization method which doesn't require changing the demand using a "stabilization fund". Modifying the supply is just as effective and doesn't require deep pockets to maintain a price artificially.

Our community has disappeared for the most part but we do still have a few of you guys around. I'm hoping that will change when people see the price rise. I know price shouldn't be the focus and it isn't for us, but it happens to be for a lot of the bitcointalk community. They won't pay attention to us until they see some growth and a chance for profit.

The 51% attack issue has been taken into account and the exact formula won't be as clear cut as less demand equals less rewards. There will be some modifications like looking at the last xx blocks to get the average hashrate so that we don't get stuck at difficulties that are considered "low" or "high". If that network hashrate becomes the norm the rewards will adjust accordingly.[/list]

[maxsinner]

Exactly, changing the supply will not change anything it will only diminish coins integrity. We have a good example in Dogecoin which have unlimited supply and no problems with the price.
HIRO only needs marketing and general adoption and recognition.

Miners will come and go as they see profit. If we want the coin to succeed we must stop to look at the coin from miners perspective but from a users perspective.
I'm sure HiroS will take the coin to the next step it's just not happening as fast as everyone wants.

You have no idea what you are talking about...

1."Diminish coins integrity" Really??? The developer is absent for months, the market cap is sitting at $9k and you think changing supply will diminish integrity?
2. "Dogecoin which have unlimited supply and no problems with price". Have you been living under a rock for the last 6 months? Doge's market cap is shrinking by the day. People who invested in DOGE in January have already lost more than 75% of their initial investment.

[poplolnman]

any news?

[huige007]

团队消失，HIRO每天数量都在增加，购买力几乎消失，只有人们在抛售，不久得退出MINTPAL市场。产量减半实在太久了。只有团队才能自救。。。