Do you verify every bet as a gambler? Provably Fair Guide.

[Ailmand]

I my self had played several times online but honestly, I don't know how to verify hashes and how provably fair works since I am not a person who is knowledgeable technically. The guides and information provided by OP is informative and useful to verify the provably fair system of the platform you are frequently using. Thank you for sharing.

[1715433075]

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[1715433075]

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[webtricks]

thanks for the effort of putting this up  but may i know if what site is it that gives incorrect verification  . thats shady then , but do you already reported them  ?  this is bad if its happening on reputable casinos because this can damage thier reputation.

Not any particular site. I was talking to an experienced dev the other day when he told me about the possibility of manipulating seeds based upon whether user changes his client seeds or not. Since the code is written in back-end it is not easy to find out which site is cheating or not. Then I tried writing the code to do so and yes, it is possible to manipulate the seeds. However, my code have some front-end trails which when looked carefully show that something fishy going on. But I am pretty sure that someone more experienced coder than me can mutate front-end code in the way that it might become almost impossible to find out that your front-end seeds are being manipulated from back-end.

Honestly I'm not familiar with SHA algorithms and hashing or unhashing things which makes me unable to verify my betting.
I believe gambling houses must work on simplifying these things so that even non-computer literature people also will be able to verify them with just one click.

Well, you don't have to do everything on your own. Almost every gambling site provides the way to verify your bets. The site will either provide you a form to fill your seeds and display the result or provide you the bare code which you can simply paste in Notepad, edit your seeds in code and save the file with .html extension. Then you just have to open that file in browser to display your result.

Also, I am planing to make a site where I will review the provably fair script of most of the gambling sites and provide the form for users to verify their bets independently for each site. But since it is huge work to do, I cannot promise the date. Maybe will create in 2 months or so.


And lastly, I would like to thank everyone who liked and appreciated the thread. I think I could make few changes in OP to make this thread more productive. Will do that in free time.

[carlfebz2]

I am not sure if I can check or verify the gambling site from the OP guide as I am only playing gambling on a random day, and I don't need to check to details. I don't know much about the provable system, but that is a good guide that will be useful for someone who wants to verify by themselves. However, I think the provable system itself is fair for every member, and I don't think that the reputable gambling site will cheat their members because that will have a bad effect on the website itself.

Checking provably fairness would really be useful when checking out new gambling sites out there because we wont able to know if we dont verify it and
to those reputable or known sites , they do already passed up such test thats why they do able to become big because they've proven out that their games
are fair or not rigged.This is actually helpful for those people who are really serious on checking out a site if its fair or not but most of the time
they dont really care to verify anything if they do saw that lots of people playing on such place.

[Saint-loup]

Client seed: It can be anything. It is up to player to choose anything as his client seed. For example, I can use 'webtricksClientSeed' as my client seed or 'thisIsMyRandomClientSeed'. However, while choosing client seed make sure three things:
(i) Always choose new seed for new bet (never try same client seed with new server seed).
(ii) Don't choose easily identifiable seeds like I mentioned above (close your eyes and type random numbers and alphabets. I do like this and it works ).

Could you elaborate on this statement please? Why it's so important to do that?
Do you think the house program will detect you are always using the same seed and will create a losing server seed for it or it has nothing to do with that? Thank you very much to explain me what you mean (or someone else here).

[2double0]

Client seed: It can be anything. It is up to player to choose anything as his client seed. For example, I can use 'webtricksClientSeed' as my client seed or 'thisIsMyRandomClientSeed'. However, while choosing client seed make sure three things:
(i) Always choose new seed for new bet (never try same client seed with new server seed).
(ii) Don't choose easily identifiable seeds like I mentioned above (close your eyes and type random numbers and alphabets. I do like this and it works ).

Could you elaborate on this statement please? Why it's so important to do that?
Do you think the house program will detect you are always using the same seed and will create a losing server seed for it or it has nothing to do with that? Thank you very much to explain me what you mean (or someone else here).

If your preferred gambling website is rigged already, then you will always lose and there is nothing like a losing server seed. New seed opens up your chances on winning more bets with it during a new session 'if you don't consider changing it at every single bet' , but if you start losing all of a sudden then just drop the site and leave because even a new seed will not help and you will lose continuously as the system catches that you are winning and the server seed also has some areas where its provided hash doesn't meet your expected criteria because of your client seed and you start losing all your bets. Even trying with a new seed will only make you win just 3-5 bets and the same story will start repeating itself ahead.

[leowonderful]

Great guide for those who are inexperienced with provably fair systems! I agree that they can be pretty complex to understand and it's a hassle to check every bet to see if it's legit, but someone's gotta do it in order to catch any inconsistencies in casinos as there's always a chance that they could be rigging just a select number of bets, not just with newer sites but more established ones as well. The cross-platform checking was something I wasn't aware existed, because I actually didn't know some sites shared these scripts. Is there anything major to look for that suggests two sites have the same provably fair scripts?

[Saint-loup]

Client seed: It can be anything. It is up to player to choose anything as his client seed. For example, I can use 'webtricksClientSeed' as my client seed or 'thisIsMyRandomClientSeed'. However, while choosing client seed make sure three things:
(i) Always choose new seed for new bet (never try same client seed with new server seed).
(ii) Don't choose easily identifiable seeds like I mentioned above (close your eyes and type random numbers and alphabets. I do like this and it works ).

Could you elaborate on this statement please? Why it's so important to do that?
Do you think the house program will detect you are always using the same seed and will create a losing server seed for it or it has nothing to do with that? Thank you very much to explain me what you mean (or someone else here).

If your preferred gambling website is rigged already, then you will always lose and there is nothing like a losing server seed. New seed opens up your chances on winning more bets with it during a new session 'if you don't consider changing it at every single bet' , but if you start losing all of a sudden then just drop the site and leave because even a new seed will not help and you will lose continuously as the system catches that you are winning and the server seed also has some areas where its provided hash doesn't meet your expected criteria because of your client seed and you start losing all your bets. Even trying with a new seed will only make you win just 3-5 bets and the same story will start repeating itself ahead.

I don't understand how it could work like that except if the seeds are fake ... but you can spot that by checking them after the roll.
The house doesn't know what client seed you will choose/create when it generates its own, so it can't generate a losing roll...  

[shoreno]

Great guide for those who are inexperienced with provably fair systems! I agree that they can be pretty complex to understand and it's a hassle to check every bet to see if it's legit, but someone's gotta do it in order to catch any inconsistencies in casinos as there's always a chance that they could be rigging just a select number of bets, not just with newer sites but more established ones as well. The cross-platform checking was something I wasn't aware existed, because I actually didn't know some sites shared these scripts. Is there anything major to look for that suggests two sites have the same provably fair scripts?

ineed its a hassel to check often  but it would only be beneficial to some that bet a few big bets and you could be right , what if some of the bets are rigged and they wont notice it because they are busy with our play  but once they catch it and verify that is fake  , that would be a big issue to them  as it can scratch their crediility  especially if they are already established .  and yes also , alot of sites have the same scripts  ,   this can be seen obviously  . there are some that are owned by the same owner  but i dont think its possible to cross verify especially if games are different  

[michellee]

I am not sure if I can check or verify the gambling site from the OP guide as I am only playing gambling on a random day, and I don't need to check to details. I don't know much about the provable system, but that is a good guide that will be useful for someone who wants to verify by themselves. However, I think the provable system itself is fair for every member, and I don't think that the reputable gambling site will cheat their members because that will have a bad effect on the website itself.

Checking provably fairness would really be useful when checking out new gambling sites out there because we wont able to know if we dont verify it and
to those reputable or known sites , they do already passed up such test thats why they do able to become big because they've proven out that their games
are fair or not rigged.This is actually helpful for those people who are really serious on checking out a site if its fair or not but most of the time
they dont really care to verify anything if they do saw that lots of people playing on such place.

But for people who don't know about the system, and they only want to test the gambling site and playing gambling, they will not care about that. They will try to search and find out if that gambling site can be trusted or not so they can deposit more money to play gambling games. I think some people who have skills to verify that gambling site will reveal it to the public to help people know if that site really has a fair system or not.

[webtricks]

Client seed: It can be anything. It is up to player to choose anything as his client seed. For example, I can use 'webtricksClientSeed' as my client seed or 'thisIsMyRandomClientSeed'. However, while choosing client seed make sure three things:
(i) Always choose new seed for new bet (never try same client seed with new server seed).
(ii) Don't choose easily identifiable seeds like I mentioned above (close your eyes and type random numbers and alphabets. I do like this and it works ).

Could you elaborate on this statement please? Why it's so important to do that?
Do you think the house program will detect you are always using the same seed and will create a losing server seed for it or it has nothing to do with that? Thank you very much to explain me what you mean (or someone else here).

Yes, house can detect the client seed. This is how the house can detect your client seed:

Bet 1: I used 'myFavSeed' as my client seed. After the bet, I clicked 'new seed' and site changed server seed plus generated new client seed for me, say 'dgbeigeinwo35353'.

Bet 2: But since I love my client seed, I again changed client seed to 'myFavSeed' and played the bet. After second bet, I once again generated new seeds to verify my second bet.

Everything will go well up till here. Since server seed is generated prior to client seed, house have no way to cheat you. But here comes the catch. Suppose house is maintaining the record of every client seed that you verified like this:

User.verifiedClientSeeds = ['myFavSeed', 'myFavSeed'];

Now house can check if client seed used in first bet is same as the second, if true then house will use 'myFavSeed' as dummy client seed and generate a server seed for a specific result. This server seed's hash will be shown to you for third bet.

If you once again choose 'myFavSeed' as your client seed, the result will be same as what house decided before game. However, in games like dice this may not be very advantageous for house. House may fix that the result will be 92.68 but still have no control over Roll over/Roll under which user may choose arbitrarily. But this thing can be disastrous in case of auto bet or if house even maintains the record of your betting habits. For example, if I picked roll over 50.5 four times whereas picked roll under 49.5 eleven times. Then house can draw a trend that I like to pick roll under 49.5 so it will present me server seed such that result generated with that server seed and myFavSeed as client seed will be above 49.5.

[MWesterweele]

Client seed: It can be anything. It is up to player to choose anything as his client seed. For example, I can use 'webtricksClientSeed' as my client seed or 'thisIsMyRandomClientSeed'. However, while choosing client seed make sure three things:
(i) Always choose new seed for new bet (never try same client seed with new server seed).
(ii) Don't choose easily identifiable seeds like I mentioned above (close your eyes and type random numbers and alphabets. I do like this and it works ).

Could you elaborate on this statement please? Why it's so important to do that?
Do you think the house program will detect you are always using the same seed and will create a losing server seed for it or it has nothing to do with that? Thank you very much to explain me what you mean (or someone else here).

Yes, house can detect the client seed. This is how the house can detect your client seed:

Bet 1: I used 'myFavSeed' as my client seed. After the bet, I clicked 'new seed' and site changed server seed plus generated new client seed for me, say 'dgbeigeinwo35353'.

Bet 2: But since I love my client seed, I again changed client seed to 'myFavSeed' and played the bet. After second bet, I once again generated new seeds to verify my second bet.

Everything will go well up till here. Since server seed is generated prior to client seed, house have no way to cheat you. But here comes the catch. Suppose house is maintaining the record of every client seed that you verified like this:

User.verifiedClientSeeds = ['myFavSeed', 'myFavSeed'];

Now house can check if client seed used in first bet is same as the second, if true then house will use 'myFavSeed' as dummy client seed and generate a server seed for a specific result. This server seed's hash will be shown to you for third bet.

If you once again choose 'myFavSeed' as your client seed, the result will be same as what house decided before game. However, in games like dice this may not be very advantageous for house. House may fix that the result will be 92.68 but still have no control over Roll over/Roll under which user may choose arbitrarily. But this thing can be disastrous in case of auto bet or if house even maintains the record of your betting habits. For example, if I picked roll over 50.5 four times whereas picked roll under 49.5 eleven times. Then house can draw a trend that I like to pick roll under 49.5 so it will present me server seed such that result generated with that server seed and myFavSeed as client seed will be above 49.5.

As player everytime I bet I always verify to less the loses, also its good to know your betting games first before you place your bet to know if it can trusted or worth it because there are still some betting site give you nothing. Some gamblers are to smart in betting in gambling because they knew how to do proper way in doing thing.

[DoublerHunter]

It is a helpful thread of yours and deserves to be on the top of this board, it will definitely help those who did not understand very well how to verify the provably fair system in an online gambling platform. Technically, this is really good at checking a gambling platform that the legit one, most probably those who are a newly launched gambling site. Until now I am trying to understand very well the content of your post because there some lines I did not familiar with.

[naikturun]

so far no, mostly i came to dice casino such as primedice or 999dice or fortunejack dice for autobet, double bet when lose then back to the start when win. or double bet when you win then back to the general bet when u lose.
even though its a classic,somehow its still work.

[fullhdpixel]

-snip

ineed its a hassel to check often  but it would only be beneficial to some that bet a few big bets and you could be right , what if some of the bets are rigged and they wont notice it because they are busy with our play  but once they catch it and verify that is fake  , that would be a big issue to them  as it can scratch their crediility  especially if they are already established .  and yes also , alot of sites have the same scripts  ,   this can be seen obviously  . there are some that are owned by the same owner  but i dont think its possible to cross verify especially if games are different  

A lot of people actually think like you and make bets but let me clarify how casinos can manipulate rolls without even being caught ever.

1- You determine the client seed.
2- Server seed is always in the control of the casino and rightly so.

Now if you are not changing or checking client seed every bet then the casino can provide a server seed that will be against your bet for example you are doing all bets higher than 49.5 and the casino notices it, they see that the client seed hasn't been changed and they can easily give a server seed that would generate result lower than 49.5 always.
I am not a technical person but really understood it much better after the explanation by webtricks so thank you again!

[carlfebz2]

I am not sure if I can check or verify the gambling site from the OP guide as I am only playing gambling on a random day, and I don't need to check to details. I don't know much about the provable system, but that is a good guide that will be useful for someone who wants to verify by themselves. However, I think the provable system itself is fair for every member, and I don't think that the reputable gambling site will cheat their members because that will have a bad effect on the website itself.

Checking provably fairness would really be useful when checking out new gambling sites out there because we wont able to know if we dont verify it and
to those reputable or known sites , they do already passed up such test thats why they do able to become big because they've proven out that their games
are fair or not rigged.This is actually helpful for those people who are really serious on checking out a site if its fair or not but most of the time
they dont really care to verify anything if they do saw that lots of people playing on such place.

But for people who don't know about the system, and they only want to test the gambling site and playing gambling, they will not care about that. They will try to search and find out if that gambling site can be trusted or not so they can deposit more money to play gambling games. I think some people who have skills to verify that gambling site will reveal it to the public to help people know if that site really has a fair system or not.

This is a sure thing because gambling sites reputation wont be known if gambler or players wont test it out and as said there are really people who do really love to test those new platforms.

Im a kind of person that do observe first before making any step or deposits on a site thats why thanks to those people who do test the site and do tell their observation and conclusion.

When it comes on checking provably fair then you can already know and verify if others to confirm it.

[coinfinger]

I my self had played several times online but honestly, I don't know how to verify hashes and how provably fair works since I am not a person who is knowledgeable technically. The guides and information provided by OP is informative and useful to verify the provably fair system of the platform you are frequently using. Thank you for sharing.

I agree that the information provided by OP is indeed quite nice and easy to understand for someone who isn't into encrypting and private keys field.

Personally, I know how to verify bets and I sometimes do when I bet big but most of the times when I am betting I do that at reputed sites and the thought that comes to my mind is "The casino will not turn scam for my 0.02 bitcoins" and hence I never care enough to verify my bets. But I really feel that people should change client seed time to time because if the client seed is random it can be seen by the system, no? So better we put new client seed every bet we make.

[Saint-loup]

Client seed: It can be anything. It is up to player to choose anything as his client seed. For example, I can use 'webtricksClientSeed' as my client seed or 'thisIsMyRandomClientSeed'. However, while choosing client seed make sure three things:
(i) Always choose new seed for new bet (never try same client seed with new server seed).
(ii) Don't choose easily identifiable seeds like I mentioned above (close your eyes and type random numbers and alphabets. I do like this and it works ).

Could you elaborate on this statement please? Why it's so important to do that?
Do you think the house program will detect you are always using the same seed and will create a losing server seed for it or it has nothing to do with that? Thank you very much to explain me what you mean (or someone else here).

Yes, house can detect the client seed. This is how the house can detect your client seed:

Bet 1: I used 'myFavSeed' as my client seed. After the bet, I clicked 'new seed' and site changed server seed plus generated new client seed for me, say 'dgbeigeinwo35353'.

Bet 2: But since I love my client seed, I again changed client seed to 'myFavSeed' and played the bet. After second bet, I once again generated new seeds to verify my second bet.

Everything will go well up till here. Since server seed is generated prior to client seed, house have no way to cheat you. But here comes the catch. Suppose house is maintaining the record of every client seed that you verified like this:

User.verifiedClientSeeds = ['myFavSeed', 'myFavSeed'];

Now house can check if client seed used in first bet is same as the second, if true then house will use 'myFavSeed' as dummy client seed and generate a server seed for a specific result. This server seed's hash will be shown to you for third bet.

If you once again choose 'myFavSeed' as your client seed, the result will be same as what house decided before game. However, in games like dice this may not be very advantageous for house. House may fix that the result will be 92.68 but still have no control over Roll over/Roll under which user may choose arbitrarily. But this thing can be disastrous in case of auto bet or if house even maintains the record of your betting habits. For example, if I picked roll over 50.5 four times whereas picked roll under 49.5 eleven times. Then house can draw a trend that I like to pick roll under 49.5 so it will present me server seed such that result generated with that server seed and myFavSeed as client seed will be above 49.5.

Yes I agree with you. But you shouldn't forget that a hash function is usually used to generate the roll number, for example on freebitco.in a HMAC-SHA512 function is used. So it's not possible to calculate the seed from a roll number.
The only solution is to make several tries until you find the good number or at least a number in the good range.
But when you use an auto-bet, it's very fast, some I'm not sure the house would have enough time to compute several seeds until it founds a good one...

Two strings are created :
STRING1 = "[NONCE]:[SERVER SEED]:[NONCE]"
STRING2 = "[NONCE]:[CLIENT SEED]:[NONCE]"
Then HMAC-SHA512 is used to hash STRING1 with STRING2 as the secret key, giving us a 128 character hex string.
The first 8 characters of the hex string are taken and converted to a decimal.
This decimal is then divided by 429496.7295 and rounded off to the nearest whole number.
This whole number is used as your roll, with the maximum possible value being 10,000.

[wozzek23]

For once please read the excellent post made by OP and I sincerely appreciate the efforts made there.

so far no, mostly i came to dice casino such as primedice or 999dice or fortunejack dice for autobet, double bet when lose then back to the start when win. or double bet when you win then back to the general bet when u lose.
even though its a classic,somehow its still work.

The talk going on is not about betting strategy but it is about whether a gambler is aware of how provably fair works and if they are aware then do they actually verify the bets and randomize the client seeds to make sure the bet result is actually random?

I feel like no one would be verifying each bet and the question raised is genuine because the gambling website can easily manipulate the results if you do not change client seed because they generate the server seed and if you don't change client seed that gives them full control over result.

[webtricks]

~~snip

Yes I agree with you. But you shouldn't forget that a hash function is usually used to generate the roll number, for example on freebitco.in a HMAC-SHA512 function is used. So it's not possible to calculate the seed from a roll number.
The only solution is to make several tries until you find the good number or at least a number in the good range.
But when you use an auto-bet, it's very fast, some I'm not sure the house would have enough time to compute several seeds until it founds a good one...

You are seriously undermining the power of computer here. I think you are confusing the process with Proof of Work system used in Bitcoin mining. Under PoW, we try the combination of block header with various hexadecimal numbers (nonce) to find a hash whose value is less than the network target. But in case of provably fair, we simply converting concatenated seeds into hash using HMAC-SHA512 algo. It will literally take just fraction of milliseconds to do so.

Now if we want to manipulate result, it is very easy. You are right, since the SHA512 is one-way hashing algorithm we cannot do reverse calculation (i.e. deciding client seed from roll number), so we have to use brute forcing. But since we are using brute forcing for two way result (either above 50.5 or below 49.5), you will hit the right hash in probably first attempt, if not then maybe second, third or fourth. I don't think it will take more than 5 attempts ever (unless you are so unlucky ). Now calculate the time of doing so:

(fraction of milliseconds)*5 = still fraction of milliseconds


Or in other words, it will literally take no time to generate manipulated seed.

Two strings are created :
STRING1 = "[NONCE]:[SERVER SEED]:[NONCE]"
STRING2 = "[NONCE]:[CLIENT SEED]:[NONCE]"
Then HMAC-SHA512 is used to hash STRING1 with STRING2 as the secret key, giving us a 128 character hex string.
The first 8 characters of the hex string are taken and converted to a decimal.
This decimal is then divided by 429496.7295 and rounded off to the nearest whole number.
This whole number is used as your roll, with the maximum possible value being 10,000.

I just tried this code on my system and hashes were generated at the rate of 132K per second. So every second I have around 66K server seeds to manipulate the result in my favour.

[khaled0111]

Also, I am planing to make a site where I will review the provably fair script of most of the gambling sites and provide the form for users to verify their bets independently for each site. But since it is huge work to do, I cannot promise the date. Maybe will create in 2 months or so.

great idea. It's better to check games results using a private tool which is not dependent on the casino.
I found this website and thought it would help you:
https://dicesites.com/
You can improve it and add more casinos.
Took it from here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5150219.0