Do you verify every bet as a gambler? Provably Fair Guide.

[Genemind]

Honestly, I am not a techy kind of person and I don't know how to verify hashes and how provably fair works. And I bet the majority of gamblers don't care much about the specifics of the system as long as the site is reputable and they are winning. This is really informative and it can help gamblers test the platform's fairness and verify bets, especially for new gambling sites.

[Mauser]

I've known to checking each of our manual bets that we place on a dice site, but still not aware of checking the fairness of autobet rolls. Let's take an example of duckdice, if I play through their autobet feature and use flash in it, I won't be able to check each and every dice bet that it places. And I mostly lose on those flash bets, does it mean that the site is rigged? But what about the fact that I win sometimes when I manually play there?

I think it's really hard to check the auto bet systems because if the vast number of individual bets in a short period of time. Personally I back to just use manual betting. It might be slower but it gives me a better feeling of what's going on. It also makes checking much easier. Being honest, I haven't checked bets for a long time.
I prefer gambling on casinos that have been around from some time and have many positive reviews on this forum. A good track record is an easy way to choose my favourite casinos.

[Bitinity]

To be frank, I'm very rare to verify my bets especially if I'm playing in a trusted casino. I do verify my bets some time especially when I feel  something is unusual such as long loss streak and long win streak. Although I'm not that good in this kind of system but I can verify bets by using 3rd party verifier to make it easier. I also think that most gamblers especially newbies and/or recreational gamblers do not really care about this thing. As well as those who comes from fiat based casinos, I believe they do not care about it because most fiat based casinos has no provably fair system so once they move to crypto based casino then they wont care about what is this system about.

[Danydee]

OP,

What do you say on that?

https://tower.bet/fairness


Fairness
Tower.bet uses cryptographically provably fair RNG algorithms which guarantee that the result of each round/bet can’t be manipulated by the house.



Fairness Hi-Lo
Hi-Lo Game
Hi-Lo is a round-based card game where players ....


Randomization
In order to allow players to verify round results, we generate a chain of seeds for each game type. Each seed in a chain is SHA256 hash of a previous one which allows maintaining chain integrity over time. The game utilizes seeds from the chain in reverse order, that means knowing the seed of Nth round you can generate seeds for any number of previous rounds. The chain may consist of various amounts of seeds. We encode and publish the SHA256 hash of the last seed in the chain to Ethereum transaction’s data and use block hash as SALT. We can’t predict block hash, so by doing so results are uniformly distributed which means we can’t generate a chain of seeds with some specific distribution.

#   Seeds number   Salt   
1   10000  ....
..


Tower.bet Hi Lo randomization #1 SHA-256 of last seen chain can be checked in ETH transaction under an Input Data section. Make sure to view Input Data in UTF-8.


Result Generation
To generate a number in the range [0, 24] we combine round seed with salt. Then calculate SHA256 hash of that combination. That gives us a string of 64 hexadecimal numbers.

Then we take the first 4 characters of that hash and convert it into a decimal number ranging from 0 to 65535 (16 ^ 4 - 1). If it is less than 65525, we use the remainder from division by 25 and use it as an outcome. Otherwise, we repeat using the next 4 characters. We are able to repeat the process up to 16 times. The outcome of this algorithm is a sequential number (position) of the result card in the deck.


Sample Code
const saltedSeed = CryptoJS.SHA2. ....

Verification
We're publishing the game's hash immediately after the game round ends. You can use round’s seed and salt to verify that the bet result was not modified as well as verify that the seed was present in the original chain during randomization. There is a public verification script you can use to verify results, source code available and open.

 There is some more projects that are using registering / registering on blockchain systems to garanty the non compromision ..

[webtricks]

OP,
What do you say on that?

https://tower.bet/fairness
~snip~

 There is some more projects that are using registering / registering on blockchain systems to garanty the non compromision ..

Thanks for bringing this up Danydee. I have checked the Fairness script for Hi-Lo game and it is perfectly fine. I will now explain how the provably script on Tower Bet works for Hi-Lo:

Step 1: Generating Server Seeds

First of all, they had generated a bunch of server seeds. To do so, they started with an initial 32-bytes number and produces SHA-256 hash of the same successively many times. Let me give an example along with the explanation so things become more clear. Suppose initial 32-bytes number they chose is:

d8534cceef185bfa3b6dbc65e851417ab9d46212b4e8b15bedf3f4e2d5254214 (i)

Now we will generate sha256 hash of the above number, which will be:

0b2dbe3d322cff35b6645f9af323acae8526aaacbbf235b17e789d0f527ce318 (ii)

Now generating sha256 hash of (ii) will be:

e1966dcd64ea1f76edaeb07ebf217d9c8ec48d04c4a8af0d0e87d08d61cb1d21 (iii)

and so on...

Tower Bet did this process 100K times and the 100,000 hashes that were generated served as first 99,999 server seeds for Hi-Lo game. In our case, let say we generated 6 hashes then these five will serve as first five server seeds:

Fifth Server Seed: d8534cceef185bfa3b6dbc65e851417ab9d46212b4e8b15bedf3f4e2d5254214 - our chosen initial number
Fourth Server Seed: 0b2dbe3d322cff35b6645f9af323acae8526aaacbbf235b17e789d0f527ce318
Third Server Seed: e1966dcd64ea1f76edaeb07ebf217d9c8ec48d04c4a8af0d0e87d08d61cb1d21
Second Server Seed: 29224e31e42f72669d493d4081d4644e46ac2193292a8df7170187e62ba5affd
First Server Seed: 07fcd88c11bc970237e6e50d8c8259083dc94a3c2498596c6923b94a366ddb69
Hash that will serve as proof: e53cbb67f801cc4bc1a0f6c2674472f13fe04d6705ef56c450640a6cb0eec8d3

Now you may be thinking why we are not using 6th hash as a server seed? The reason being, sixth server seed will act as a proof that server seeds are not manipulated by house later on. Let me explain how. After generating 100K hashes, Tower Bet added the 100,000th hash in the Ethereum Blockchain as an input data in one of their transaction. This is the transaction in which hash is included:

https://etherscan.io/tx/0x1b5bf677610024e8f29cfec39400df2d55322f506da3128832247d535bba481f (t)

Go to the above link and view input data as 'UTF-8'.

In our case, we will put e53cbb67f801cc4bc1a0f6c2674472f13fe04d6705ef56c450640a6cb0eec8d3 as an input data in Ethereum blockchain by including this hash as input data in ETH transaction. This will make sure that it is the hash of first server seed i.e. 07fcd88c11bc970237e6e50d8c8259083dc94a3c2498596c6923b94a366ddb69 and house cannot change that later.

Step 2: Client Seed

In single player games like dice where player is individually playing against house, client seed is decided on the sole discretion of the player. He can change the client seed before placing the bet (which I have explained in detail in the opening post). But in social games, where more than one player is playing the same game, it is not viable for every player to choose his own client seed. As an easy way out, house chooses same client seed for all the players based on some future-event which isn't in control of house. In the case of Tower Bet's Hi-Lo game, the client seed is the hash of the block in which the above transaction (t) is recorded. Since block is not mined by Tower Bet, they have no control on what would be the hash of block which makes client seed fair for every player. The block in which the above transaction was recorded is:
https://etherscan.io/block/10057525

The hash of this block is 0xbc81865617ce0e8aca17b09c8df81c549cc3d677f1da95ad6ae7622d1c2c357f and this is currently used by Tower Bet as client seed for every round of Hi-Lo game.

So this is flow which make sure results are not pre-decided:

Step 3: Result Generation

Result is generated very simply. First they combine server seed and client seed like this:

CombinedSeed = serverSeed + ClientSeed

Then they generate sha256 hash of the CombinedSeed. Then first four hexadecimal characters are taken to generate the result.

Here is the result of one of the round:

You can see that:
Client Seed or Salt = 0xb52b2c17b28c83c6e452c76b9650915e24f09091af9a1f643ee61fc6ee60ea5d  (which is same as the hash of the block we saw in Step 2)
Server Seed = 26d42b14348ed56482511c5557c538766e7b97dc968e30a7cf9cd75cdd414c83

So CombinedSeed will be 26d42b14348ed56482511c5557c538766e7b97dc968e30a7cf9cd75cdd414c830xb52b2c17b28c8 3c6e452c76b9650915e24f09091af9a1f643ee61fc6ee60ea5d

The sha256 hash of CombinedSeed will be 3ebbde85c5231686eb8dfcd49d2df382ba22d99f042473db6aebf016f0e40ae0

The first four hexadecimal character will be 3ebb.

The decimal form of 3ebb is 16059 which when divided by 25 leaves 9 as the remainder. Since array starts with index 0, the result shall be 10th item in the array:

[Joker, 2 red, 2 black, 3 red, 3 black, 4 red, 4 black, 5 red, 5 black, 6 red, 6 black, 7 red, 7 black, 8 red, 8 black, 9 red, 9 black, J red, J black, Q red, Q black, K red, K black, A red, A black]

Since, 10th item is '6 red', the card shall be 6 of reds. In image, we can verify that the card is correct! Hence, Tower Bet is provably fair.

My Observation

Storing pre-calculated data on blockchain as server seed and choosing future data as client seed to determine result is an impressive way to maintain fairness of social game where more than one player play at the same time. I really liked the idea. However, player must make sure that such data is recorded on reputable blockchain (only Bitcoin and Ethereum blockchains). If the data is recorded on the blockchain of some small cap cryptocurrency, it is possible that house itself mined the block and in such condition block hash maybe generated as per the will of house. Note that, block hash is not random. It is the hash generated by combining the block details like transaction, timestamp, pervious block's hash, etc etc. So for small cap coin, it is possible for miner to mine block at specific time to generate block as per his own will. But for Bitcoin and Ethereum chain, we can assume that hash of block mined is fair.

[Danydee]

Thank you for the great explanation ! 

My Observation

Storing pre-calculated data on blockchain as server seed and choosing future data as client seed to determine result is an impressive way to maintain fairness of social game where more than one player play at the same time. I really liked the idea. However, player must make sure that such data is recorded on reputable blockchain (only Bitcoin and Ethereum blockchains). If the data is recorded on the blockchain of some small cap cryptocurrency, it is possible that house itself mined the block and in such condition block hash maybe generated as per the will of house. Note that, block hash is not random. It is the hash generated by combining the block details like transaction, timestamp, pervious block's hash, etc etc. So for small cap coin, it is possible for miner to mine block at specific time to generate block as per his own will. But for Bitcoin and Ethereum chain, we can assume that hash of block mined is fair.

So at the point it is easy to ad some pepper and enforce the system just by also including every new block mined 

[Fredomago]

To be frank, I'm very rare to verify my bets especially if I'm playing in a trusted casino. I do verify my bets some time especially when I feel  something is unusual such as long loss streak and long win streak.

If you feel that something is not right with end results of your bets probably you'll be seeking
for some great reference on how things had been done.

Although I'm not that good in this kind of system but I can verify bets by using 3rd party verifier to make it easier.

Good thing that you are aware of those available system to check what's really happened
from your previous games, it helps a lot to verified the results.

I also think that most gamblers especially newbies and/or recreational gamblers do not really care about this thing.

Yes, thinking that everything relied with luck.

As well as those who comes from fiat based casinos, I believe they do not care about it because most fiat based casinos has no provably fair system so once they move to crypto based casino then they wont care about what is this system about.

I'm not exposed with fiat based gambling house, if that's the case those who divert their attention to crypto based gambling site
are just there to play, win or lose they won't mind to deal with anything.

[Mumbeeptind1963]

Honestly, I am not a techy kind of person and I don't know how to verify hashes and how provably fair works. And I bet the majority of gamblers don't care much about the specifics of the system as long as the site is reputable and they are winning. This is really informative and it can help gamblers test the platform's fairness and verify bets, especially for new gambling sites.

Me too, I am only play but I do not know this thing, it seems that I need to know more about this, and not only I will rely on where does many people go, or play in gambling site, because before I only play to those site that are recommended by some people or where does many people go. I should consider to check this before I put a large amount of money in my chosen gambling site.

[Eternad]

Honestly, I am not a techy kind of person and I don't know how to verify hashes and how provably fair works. And I bet the majority of gamblers don't care much about the specifics of the system as long as the site is reputable and they are winning. This is really informative and it can help gamblers test the platform's fairness and verify bets, especially for new gambling sites.

Me too, I am only play but I do not know this thing, it seems that I need to know more about this, and not only I will rely on where does many people go, or play in gambling site, because before I only play to those site that are recommended by some people or where does many people go. I should consider to check this before I put a large amount of money in my chosen gambling site.

Whenever we risk a large money we must know where it will go, I also not very particular in fairness of the game as long as I enjoyed it I'm fine, but this time that Pandemic and it's hard to find a job and sidelines we must know where are money goes or if we will use it in gambling atleast we find way to win. Being able to calculate the provably fair of a game might help us in winning.

[webtricks]

Thank you for the great explanation ! 

My Observation

~snip~

So at the point it is easy to ad some pepper and enforce the system just by also including every new block mined 

Not really! Like I said, block hashes are not random and can bring the house in vulnerable situation if results are wholly based on the hash of new blocks mined. Moreover, no house wants to give away the control over the result generated by following data which is entirely out of its control. Server seeds make sure that house resides considerable control over the results.

While from the player's point of view, custom client seed is still a better option than block hash as a client seed.

So in short, there can't be a working system where new blocks could be either used as client seed or server seed. What Tower Bet did, they took a single hash and reusing it as client seed. Dynamic hashes won't work.

[Inkdatar]

Whenever I’m playing a game online I do not check every bet I’ve made if the site really offers a provably fair system. This is very informative though I’m not that big player so the next time I'll check everything. This gives me an understanding of the process in an online game and also to many users or gamblers so this is very helpful especially to those who do not know how provably fair works.

[Bezobraznike]

Whenever I’m playing a game online I do not check every bet I’ve made if the site really offers a provably fair system. This is very informative though I’m not that big player so the next time I'll check everything. This gives me an understanding of the process in an online game and also to many users or gamblers so this is very helpful especially to those who do not know how provably fair works.

   I don't check it as well, and I don't change seeds, but I see some people in chat suggest that all the time. I saw some discussions
that it can mean something, but there're people who claim different. I am not sure in what to believe here, and I decided to not
overthink that, I just gamble with small amounts and I think I don't need to do all that, I just enjoy the gambling at some site
as it is, if I have luck I will win, if not I will lose.

[travwill]

I have not checked any of my bets. Now I became insanely curious about how it works and how it will look. Plus, I don’t understand why we don’t use this feature given that it’s completely free.
It makes no sense to trust any third parties, such as the casinos where we play. If they say check us - we must check!

[AmoreJaz]

Honestly, I am not a techy kind of person and I don't know how to verify hashes and how provably fair works. And I bet the majority of gamblers don't care much about the specifics of the system as long as the site is reputable and they are winning. This is really informative and it can help gamblers test the platform's fairness and verify bets, especially for new gambling sites.

most casino sites have their brief discussion how their provably fair system works. so even if youre not a techie one, just follow their procedure and you will learn how to verify your hash
 but anyway, i rarely do it for myself also. if im playing in a known casino here, i dont usually verify my bet. maybe if its a new one, i just check it once to see if they are saying the truth bout their provable fairness..

[alisonwonder]

I have not checked any of my bets. Now I became insanely curious about how it works and how it will look. Plus, I don’t understand why we don’t use this feature given that it’s completely free.
It makes no sense to trust any third parties, such as the casinos where we play. If they say check us - we must check!

I think the possibility of being fair is just a figure of speech or a statement because we as users or players do not know the original script made by the gambling website creator, they may provide information about the possibility of a fair but in it there is a script where some time there are players who lose a lot.

[dimonstration]

To be frank, I'm very rare to verify my bets especially if I'm playing in a trusted casino. I do verify my bets some time especially when I feel  something is unusual such as long loss streak and long win streak. Although I'm not that good in this kind of system but I can verify bets by using 3rd party verifier to make it easier. I also think that most gamblers especially newbies and/or recreational gamblers do not really care about this thing. As well as those who comes from fiat based casinos, I believe they do not care about it because most fiat based casinos has no provably fair system so once they move to crypto based casino then they wont care about what is this system about.

Once the casino is trusted and we were able to win sometimes as well to cash out fast in that casino there is no sense of checking the fairness especially if we were already comfortable in it. Maybe those high rollers or users who deposits way to much money is maticulous in knowing how fair the casino is. There are some calculation to determined and might also take time and effort,but I see in some post here that there are casino maybe new casinos who provide calculators to prove their casino fairness to not be doubt by new upcoming players.

[goaldigger]

I have not checked any of my bets. Now I became insanely curious about how it works and how it will look. Plus, I don’t understand why we don’t use this feature given that it’s completely free.
It makes no sense to trust any third parties, such as the casinos where we play. If they say check us - we must check!

I think the possibility of being fair is just a figure of speech or a statement because we as users or players do not know the original script made by the gambling website creator, they may provide information about the possibility of a fair but in it there is a script where some time there are players who lose a lot.

That’s a lot of numbers to crack for you to know if its fair, and if you are just playing to have fun then you don’t have time to know if its a real fair or not. Someone will work on that, those who gamble seriously should make sure that the site is fair to you and fair on giving details of your games. Probably fair really exist, top gambling site is making sure to be fair to remain a reputable gambling site.

[ethereumhunter]

I have not checked any of my bets. Now I became insanely curious about how it works and how it will look. Plus, I don’t understand why we don’t use this feature given that it’s completely free.
It makes no sense to trust any third parties, such as the casinos where we play. If they say check us - we must check!

I think the possibility of being fair is just a figure of speech or a statement because we as users or players do not know the original script made by the gambling website creator, they may provide information about the possibility of a fair but in it there is a script where some time there are players who lose a lot.

That’s a lot of numbers to crack for you to know if its fair, and if you are just playing to have fun then you don’t have time to know if its a real fair or not. Someone will work on that, those who gamble seriously should make sure that the site is fair to you and fair on giving details of your games. Probably fair really exist, top gambling site is making sure to be fair to remain a reputable gambling site.

Not many serious gamblers always check fairness because they will think about winning the games. But for the serious gamblers who check, they will need more time to place the bet or check while they are putting the bet. The reputable gambling site will not try to cheat their members because that will relate to their reputations among the gamblers. And if they do that and the members know about that, the members will leave them and will not come to their site again.

[KTChampions]

I think that in all the top casinos the games are absolutely fair. If this were not the case, they would be very quickly caught doing it. Everything here is based on mathematics and any fraud is easy to see since everything is recorded and it is very easy for any player to get complete statistics at a distance of thousands and tens of thousands of bets.

Maybe in the past people weren't aware about it, as well as doesn't have what's within the phrase "provably fair". Now people are aware and even if something seems to be unfair in the operation soon they raise complaints. This will surely create bad reputation to the casinos. To avoid such situations casinos do legitimate service and through the house edge they make profit.

Exactly. The funniest thing is that a casino makes the most profit if it works as honestly as possible. And any bias in the results relative to the theory of probability is more profitable for the players than for the casino. I read an article about this in some scientific journal, unfortunately I cannot give a link now.

[andycarrol]

I have not checked any of my bets. Now I became insanely curious about how it works and how it will look. Plus, I don’t understand why we don’t use this feature given that it’s completely free.
It makes no sense to trust any third parties, such as the casinos where we play. If they say check us - we must check!

I think the possibility of being fair is just a figure of speech or a statement because we as users or players do not know the original script made by the gambling website creator, they may provide information about the possibility of a fair but in it there is a script where some time there are players who lose a lot.

That’s a lot of numbers to crack for you to know if its fair, and if you are just playing to have fun then you don’t have time to know if its a real fair or not. Someone will work on that, those who gamble seriously should make sure that the site is fair to you and fair on giving details of your games. Probably fair really exist, top gambling site is making sure to be fair to remain a reputable gambling site.

Not many serious gamblers always check fairness because they will think about winning the games. But for the serious gamblers who check, they will need more time to place the bet or check while they are putting the bet. The reputable gambling site will not try to cheat their members because that will relate to their reputations among the gamblers. And if they do that and the members know about that, the members will leave them and will not come to their site again.

of course the gamblers who used to be investigating this will require a lot of capital but if the cheating really happens then the gambling site owners already get a lot of results from investigators because they will certainly always try it, if their reputation is bad then they will make more with the design or a different name because if you already have a gambling script it will be very easy to make it online.