#2 Bitcointalk Poker Series (0.05 BTC & BIG BTC Ticket sponsored by SwC Poker)

[BitcoinGirl.Club]

@BitcoinGirl.Club
You should pop back into my hand discussion thread to continue going over the hand you posted.  Would be nice to hear how it played out.

I had this out of mind. I will make a post on that topic and will active the notification. Sorry guys.

I will ask SwC to reduce Late registration (20 minutes) - thanks for the input guys. It's only normal it will take some time before we sort out such details but please also keep in mind I can't ask them to edit stuff every couple of days - we don't want to become a pain, do we.

Good decision. This should help reduce the possibility of taking advantage with late reg.

Damn it guys! I feel the heat. I was one of the guy who joined at the last minute. To be honest I was in-between some other regular task so I thought to join late and I am lucky that I did not miss it. If I was few minutes late then I would miss last night. Take it easy as this was not my priority last night.

I will vote for 10 minutes late registration. I think this is standard instead of having 55 minutes. 

[Trofo]

Damn it guys! I feel the heat. I was one of the guy who joined at the last minute. To be honest I was in-between some other regular task so I thought to join late and I am lucky that I did not miss it. If I was few minutes late then I would miss last night. Take it easy as this was not my priority last night.

Chill out, it is not about you We always have quite a few late regs. I didn't check if it is always the same guys or not and at this point it doesn't even matter if somebody used late reg as a part of their strategy. It was allowed by the rules and if somebody profited from that - good for them. Shorter late reg just makes the game more fun and fair for those that start from the begging and that is a plus for me.

[SyGambler]

hmm IDK if it's late to apply this but I feel that the structure should give players incentive to gain the most points instead of just gaining points to qualify for the final game
at the moment it doesn't matter if you collect 80 points cause you will gain the same benefits as the one who finishes on 9th place

the current structure is making people chasing some points just to qualify , while if it was better to finish in top 3 for example things would change and you probably will see players competing for top spot

maybe in the next series the structure should reward the top 3 players based on points , or maybe we should cancel the finale as well and credit the final prizes based on points

[tyKiwanuka]

Don't feed me this bullshit, lol! Who goes against all-in with 5-10 offsuit? Really! High card: 10, not same suited, difference of more than 4 between cards. No chance of straight or flush with both hole cards, awful chance of pair and that too a weak pair. Even newbie player won't play this hand. But you went against me with these cards and surprisingly won!! I felt like killing you at the moment. Tell to the Goddess of Luck who was on your side yesterday and dealt 5 among community cards that next time her charm won't work.

Hhampuz already explained to you in chat and it wasn't a bad play. You only had around 2k, he had 10k, was among the chipleaders and was big blind. In these kind of situations you can call an all-in from small stacks with any two cards basically. In the majority of scenarios you would have two live cards and probabilty to win is not that bad as one would think:


Source: https://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tools/odds-calculator/texas-holdem

33% vs 66% is not too shabby, if you can eliminate a player risking only few chips. Hhampuz had a bit of "bad luck", because he only had one live card, since you had the T too. But it's still only 22% vs 75% in your favour. It was a suckout, but happens all the time in poker. You sucked out players too in the past in guess Part of the game.

@tyKiwanuka why didn't you play poker this week?

I wasn't in the mood to play and since I don't have any chances to reach the Grand Final anyway, I don't feel urged to play every tournament.

[arallmuus]

33% vs 66% is not too shabby, if you can eliminate a player risking only few chips. Hhampuz had a bit of "bad luck", because he only had one live card, since you had the T too. But it's still only 22% vs 75% in your favour. It was a suckout, but happens all the time in poker. You sucked out players too in the past in guess Part of the game.

Happened to me last night when I was under 1500 chips, all those with higher chip stack keep pressuring me with higher stake whenever I have the big or small blind. Part of the strategy indeed and I consider this as smart play to pressure someone because once you got 10 or 9 people on the game that means it is almost safe that you might secure some point

since I don't have any chances to reach the Grand Final anyway, I don't feel urged to play every tournament.

Why? there are still 6 more games to go and at this point everyone still have a chance to get into the grand final

[tyKiwanuka]

Why? there are still 6 more games to go and at this point everyone still have a chance to get into the grand final

Yes, in theory everyone can still make it. I guess you could make the final by playing only three tourneys (but you would have to minimum Top3 in all of them ). Realistically though, I am missing the skill to make any noise.

I always had a love-hate relationship with Poker I am admiring people, who are able to make good money longterm (or a living) with it, because for me this is unthinkable - not because of the difficulty to master the game itself, but because it's so time-consuming, you are a prisoner to your computer and the mental part is so huge. Sportsbetting is already a rollercoaster, but Poker is so much worse for my liking.

So I just play Poker from time to time, if there is nothing else to do like during these Corona times. My beloved Bundesliga will start again on the weekend and watching/betting some football brings me more joy than playing the devils game called Poker

[CoinEraser]

I will ask SwC to reduce Late registration (20 minutes) - thanks for the input guys. It's only normal it will take some time before we sort out such details but please also keep in mind I can't ask them to edit stuff every couple of days - we don't want to become a pain, do we.

I also think 20 minutes is a good decision. The late registration was really a bit too long and 20 minutes is really fair and should be absolutely enough. Thumbs up for the decision. 

[Hhampuz]

I don't think the late reg is an issue once you increase the starting stacks to 5k. Besides, it is up to the players at the table to.. play, right? I keep seeing people go all in preflop when they have 50bb and they sit with AT, JQ, A9 off suit and if you are going to play like that I don't think you can blame people who late reg if you end up out of the money.

I know I'm not a pro and I'm not playing these tournaments as if it's the $1k Thursday Thrilla so it's all for fun, really. If someone wants to sit out after making some good pots - let them. Doesn't really change anything from them becoming super tight from that point either.

Happy to see 5k start stack though!

[arallmuus]

Why? there are still 6 more games to go and at this point everyone still have a chance to get into the grand final

Yes, in theory everyone can still make it. I guess you could make the final by playing only three tourneys (but you would have to minimum Top3 in all of them ). Realistically though, I am missing the skill to make any noise.

I always had a love-hate relationship with Poker I am admiring people, who are able to make good money longterm (or a living) with it, because for me this is unthinkable - not because of the difficulty to master the game itself, but because it's so time-consuming, you are a prisoner to your computer and the mental part is so huge. Sportsbetting is already a rollercoaster, but Poker is so much worse for my liking.

So I just play Poker from time to time, if there is nothing else to do like during these Corona times. My beloved Bundesliga will start again on the weekend and watching/betting some football brings me more joy than playing the devils game called Poker
[/quote]

Well the thing is that it doesnt really needs some skill to be good at this game. Someone could be very good to be able to fold at the right time without having to lose alot of chips or be able to call some bluff. However if luck is not on your side, even someone with bad cards and some bluff could win the game although you have a pair of Ace

but because it's so time-consuming, you are a prisoner to your computer and the mental part is so huge

Yes it is really time consuming indeed and thats how most people lose out in the end after they made it quite good after the first or second break imo 

[CoinEraser]

I don't think the late reg is an issue once you increase the starting stacks to 5k. Besides, it is up to the players at the table to.. play, right? I keep seeing people go all in preflop when they have 50bb and they sit with AT, JQ, A9 off suit and if you are going to play like that I don't think you can blame people who late reg if you end up out of the money.

I know I'm not a pro and I'm not playing these tournaments as if it's the $1k Thursday Thrilla so it's all for fun, really. If someone wants to sit out after making some good pots - let them. Doesn't really change anything from them becoming super tight from that point either.

Happy to see 5k start stack though!

Damn, it's all pretty complicated and not easy. I can understand your arguments well. I guess you're right about that. If we have a 5k start stack, it is also something else. Then we don't need to change the time of the late registration. Either way, a small adjustment would be very good. Luckily, I don't have to decide that. I trust that efialtis will make the right decision. Otherwise he can change the change again. 

[figmentofmyass]

at the moment it doesn't matter if you collect 80 points cause you will gain the same benefits as the one who finishes on 9th place

the current structure is making people chasing some points just to qualify , while if it was better to finish in top 3 for example things would change and you probably will see players competing for top spot

this is what i meant earlier about a more top-heavy structure. if everyone is competing for the win, the problem solves itself. but it may create a new problem---paying only the top 3 might discourage lots of players who don't think they can consistently place. the smoother payouts provide incentives to widen the field.

no easy answer there because strong players will lobby for top-heavy, more casual or marginal players will prefer smooth so it gives them a better shot. maybe the solution is somewhere in between. pay out the top 10, but skew points towards the top.

i liked the original idea---that the championship was the final table of final tables. in a large field, a final table is meaningful and should be rewarded and the smooth structure is good for that. i think it worked okay in the first series even with just 25-30 players a game. at <20 a game, i can see it's not ideal though.

the ideal solution is to get more players.......

[iv4n]

maybe in the next series the structure should reward the top 3 players based on points , or maybe we should cancel the finale as well and credit the final prizes based on points

Well this sounds very interesting! I think we should add some chips for that, or to cut prizes for grand finale!?
This would be a real race for points, not just to get in the final tournament, it would be an extra motivation for every tournament! Like a league and cup in the same time!
I like this proposition, and I would like others to think about this and maybe Efi, Yahoo, tyKiwanuka, Hhampuz, Betwrong, and others can give some extra thoughts on this and maybe they can find a way to implement this in existing structure!

[SyGambler]

no easy answer there because strong players will lobby for top-heavy, more casual or marginal players will prefer smooth so it gives them a better shot. maybe the solution is somewhere in between. pay out the top 10, but skew points towards the top.

well it can be like half of the prize goes to top3 and the other half goes for the final game or something similar
there is indeed no perfect solution , personally I prefer this one cause it reduces variance a lot since currently the most important thing is to run good in the finale so even if you play perfect poker in 8 games and lead the series you may end up disappointed in the finale due to one single bad beat

at the same time the current structure is more newbie friendly as well since you don't really need to play good , all you need is to qualify then run good in the finale

so both arguments are valid IMO and really not sure what is the best

[Hhampuz]

My 2 satoshi.. playing for points that eventually leads to a grand finale is much more interesting and to me makes it more fun.  If you would do it any other way (top 3 in points just get the prize) this would disincentive playing if you have one or two bad tournys early on as it might be over. With current structure it's never really over until it's over and once you are in the top 9 it's a new day and a new game where it's all to play for.

Keep as is with 5k starting stack is perfect, IMO.

Now my idea for an implementation would be perhaps one game per week over 2 months as that could theoretically mean less variance and more stability as I know some people can't/don't want to commit both their Saturday and Sunday to play poker, depending on your timezone (I know current timezone makes it harder for any americans to play) it's quite the commitment indeed.

[tyKiwanuka]

To add to the confusion and drive efialtis nuts :

I would get rid of late registration entirely, because there is more than enough time for people to register (and unregister again, if they can't make it). If someone decides to join shortly before a tournament starts and has trouble to get his deposit credited in time, he/she can just ask in here for someone to send 1000 chips and send it back after it was credited by SwC.


For the internal point structure, I would weigh the number of entrants in. It's harder to beat 25 people than it is to beat 15 people and with the structure as it is now, you get the same points, which makes no sense.

25 entrants
25th place = 1 point
24th place = 2 points
(...)
2nd place = 24 points
1st place = 25 points

15 entrants
15th place = 1 point
14th place = 2 points
(...)
2nd place = 14 points
1st place = 15 points

There were 18 and 19 players last weekend, so no biggy right now, but maybe for the future. Because a) more people could join and b) as far as I am aware most of us live in the northern hemisphere and summer is around. So number of entrants could drop even more and if you have only 10 players, it's not reasonable to award the same amount of points compared to when you have 25 players.

Now there could be some outlier, where you have a tournament with 50 people joining and the winner might qualify for Grand Final just by winning this tournament, but this is very unlikely to happen. And if so, then the player that is able (read: lucky enough) to beat 49 others, probably deserved his spot in the Grand Final.


With the top heavy structure I don't know. Sure the player that has 80 points will start with the same stack as the player that just got in at 9th place, but he will most likely already have collected some more prize money along the way and is in profit. One tournament win - depending on number of entrants - will already cover the fees for all 8 tournaments more or less. But yeah, it's not easy. In NFL, a team can go 16-0 in regular season and then lay an egg in their first playoff game and be eliminated. Is it fair ? Probably no. Is it just the way it is ? Definitely yes.

[yahoo62278]

To add to the confusion and drive efialtis nuts :

I would get rid of late registration entirely, because there is more than enough time for people to register (and unregister again, if they can't make it). If someone decides to join shortly before a tournament starts and has trouble to get his deposit credited in time, he/she can just ask in here for someone to send 1000 chips and send it back after it was credited by SwC.

I am 100% in agreement with this. I am usually registered days ahead of time. The game is at the same time every weekend. Players know this weeks in advance. So all the last min late reg and angle shooting is nuts. At least with no late reg players are penalized for sitting out by losing chips. I don't like players sitting out, but I cannot stop them.

Far as your points structure goes, maybe no matter the amount of entrants, last gets 1 point and everyone gains a point with each person knocked out. Only issue is 1 tourney might be worth 27 points to 1st, while 3 others were only worth 15. So, that probably will not work out to good.

[cancerbola]

Points from first to last is literally the best way to encourage sitting out (apart from an upside down last gets most structure). In this case they would be rewarded for sitting out straight from the beginning, in contrast to the fixed 10 place structure where they would have to fight for points when they decide to finally play.

[Trofo]

Points from first to last is literally the best way to encourage sitting out (apart from an upside down last gets most structure). In this case they would be rewarded for sitting out straight from the beginning, in contrast to the fixed 10 place structure where they would have to fight for points when they decide to finally play.

Is this really a problem? I guess that players who intentionally opt to sit out are not that good players in the first place. Meaning they will never win the tournament and even if they get very lucky and get to the final table they will surly not get in the paid places there. As we have seen recently sitting out and not playing a single hand can give you points but I don't think that will work in similar fashion every time. And if you decide to activate after some time yes you will have more chips than some players but you will also have less chips than better players which is not a favorable position to be in, at least for me. I want to be chip leader and start chip bullying as soon as possible

[efialtis]

Hey there,

you guys are driving me crazy... :p Well, not really, buuuuuuut... here is my opinion:

Disclaimer in advance: It's hard to fulfill everyone's wishes and we will never get there...

- Personally I didn't really care about late registration because after all - it's not generally an advantage to join even after 50 minutes, is it? ... Provided we are playing some nice poker, it shouldn't be. Still, I will talk with the hosts and see what we can do.

- Regarding points structure: I understand the "pain" but on the other hand, as Hhampuz also stated, for me it is not an option to cancel the championship finale and just pay out based on performances in the qualifiers. Again, I really get what you guys are talking about... but this is supposed to be the highlight of each series and I am actually loving it (even though I didn't qualify ). As tyKiwanuka also stated correctly, it's like regular season and playoffs and as hard (unfair) as it may be in some cases, it's still a great way to run a nice and big community event when playing with fellow forum mates, isn't it? Plus... Men, I suffered so many suckouts so far... It's not like poker is fair anyway when referring to a series of 8 games. Last but not least - players who do well in the qualifiers will also receive some nice prizes on the way to the final so there is always an "incentive" - that final tournament (in my opinion) is supposed to be a big, big bonus for anyone who manages to get there.

If you guys wish I am okay with adapting the points structure even though I don't see the need you guys do - I definitely do not wish to run the series without a final game though and I hope you won't force me doing that.

[figmentofmyass]

If you guys wish I am okay with adapting the points structure even though I don't see the need you guys do - I definitely do not wish to run the series without a final game though and I hope you won't force me doing that.

+1. i don't see a huge need to change it (and i think cutting down late registration will help) and i strongly prefer a championship type structure vs paying out for points.

clearly everyone has an opinion about different ways the point system could work. there are dozens of ways to do it, and if you want to do a deep dive into all the angles, these guys have covered most of them: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/league-points.6199/