TheBitcoinTalkShow - 24 Aug - Bitcointalk Community Awards 2022

[Cyrus]

I’m looking forward to seeing what comes of this. Good luck! We’ll have to make sure to do our part and spread the word to get those likes and subscribes on the main channel and the eventual clips channel. Get that YouTube algorithm doing it’s thing to birth the next viral sensation.

Thank you and appreciate the help! The goal is to have content the community will be proud of, but

Just like Bitcointalk has signature ads as a privilege to its users and bidding system for in-between ads here, I'd also like to add some 'advertisement facilities' to be availed for the users of this community on YouTube already to let them too utilize all crypto based advertising on this forum's YouTube channel which will also help generate revenue [...]

I think it's a bit early to have a conversation about sponsors. However, if any point there will any sponsors, forum's ad policy will probably be copied over.

As others already have written , i am also excited about and cant wait to see the Teaser and the channels artwork !
If you need maybe some kind of copyright free Music you can hit me up on a PM as i produce my one Music also , if you want and like.

The teaser and artwork should be ready this month, so the links and behind the scenes and teasers will go live before the first video. Get some momentum going.
PM sent! This is what the community aspect is about, looking forward to hearing you music and hopefully we'd be able to add it in /me raises hand for custom theme music in the future!

How did the filming day go, smooth sailing I assume?

I can imagine that he was nervous and excited at the same time maybe.

Yes!  

This is great news Cyrus! Has anyone noticed that ever since the creation of the thread (26th of August) and the first filming days we're just talking about almost 2 weeks? I think we already have a ton of work done in such a short notice, so I'm really excited to see any kind of draft / end result that may come from it.

We've been pedaling at it like wild foxes!  
But seriously, doing justice to BitcoinTalk is no small feat! And tried to find a balance between:

• this is a cool idea, hope someone will do it but might thing about doing it someday
• ok let's do it, but it's gotta be reasonably perfect, with the huge risk of nothing actually being done
• it's not going to be perfect, but someone has to do it!

Ultimately, the power is in each of you to decide and make your own minds if you like it or don't. Bitcoin is empowering, right?

Right now, youtube is an untapped reservoir for genuine crypto-based videos, and a lot good could come from it. Question is, is the OG crypto community going to do anything about it or not?  

I think that there isn't any other crypto channel with such a huge advertisement made about it than ourselves - we've existed almost as long as BTC's life, and that kind of "publicity"/reach is hard to attain. What we'll do with it only depends on us.

Perhaps more On-Topic : Another small idea, geared more towards charity - Host/Run donation/charity events, but within each members area/country - Basically we would incentivize members to donate to their local shelter / charity house/institution and if provided with some proof of help we could make a leaderboard and the top 3 users would be mentioned / interviewed on the YT channel! This would be optimal if the donation was either by food / money or, since this is a BTC forum, why not crypto? What better way to push further the adoption?

Good points and agree! I think most of the popular crypto content out there gravitates around price talk and maybe some projects being advertised, while at the opposite side you have technical/educational videos, and if given the opportunity I'd spend my time watching the later.
However, I think there's a lack of content regarding the culture, the history and here BitcoinTalk deserves the spotlight! Adding some entertainment along the way of course.
The charity idea is also something I'd really look forward to.

And sometimes you suffer setbacks like a youtube copystrike or maybe they decide to pull some of your videos. Don't forget these are centralized services that can kick you off their platform if they want. Recently I was kicked off AWS for the second time along with my in-development business API so it has to find a new home  

A lot of youtubers have expressed their opinion about this where some legit channels were kicked off the platform without breaking any rules. Youtube is centralised and they only want content that identifies with their rules and values if Crypocurrency is one of those that does not I can see them removing all videos related to crypo. They could justify it to by saying that cryptocurrencies are unsafe and point towards altcoins being most scams.

Yeah, that's definitely a risk. What about having some alternatives as well, some opininions regarding https://d.tube and others would be nice.

[1714637256]

1714637256

[RickDeckard]

A lot of youtubers have expressed their opinion about this where some legit channels were kicked off the platform without breaking any rules. Youtube is centralised and they only want content that identifies with their rules and values if Crypocurrency is one of those that does not I can see them removing all videos related to crypo. They could justify it to by saying that cryptocurrencies are unsafe and point towards altcoins being most scams.

I think that would start a very dangerous precedent : If they did that, why stop there? First of all, why would they ban something that has such a complex system - tamper-proof - behind it? Is it because it is unregulated? I've got lots of other content that YT could straight out ban from their platform - mostly related with so called "gurus" that prey upon people's hope of getting rich quick and end up robbing them of their investments (just an example). We could also talk about fake news being spread, alt-right channels spreading conspiracy theories, deepfake videos pretending to be someone else speech (I think we could go on and on about this).
If they do take this course of action towards anything honestly, our so called "free speech" would be in peril - I could be against everything that I've mentioned previously but I also have to be aware that people have the right to speak their points of views and discuss what they want to discuss - It's up to the viewer to listen/see that information and make critically and analytical evaluations (and here it's where most people end up failing I believe).

Good points and agree! I think most of the popular crypto content out there gravitates around price talk and maybe some projects being advertised, while at the opposite side you have technical/educational videos, and if given the opportunity I'd spend my time watching the later.
However, I think there's a lack of content regarding the culture, the history and here BitcoinTalk deserves the spotlight! Adding some entertainment along the way of course.
The charity idea is also something I'd really look forward to.

I think that's where we'll find our audience - we'll set ourselfs apart from the "spotlight" of channels that try to deceive users into "cryto scams" and we'll slowly and carefully start enticing users to learn about crypto right from the beginning and with the correct guidance I'm sure we'll be able to light up a spark within each viewer so that he/she can freely start to search for the meaning of everything (besides BTC going UP and BTC going down and "stonks").

The teaser and artwork should be ready this month, so the links and behind the scenes and teasers will go live before the first video. Get some momentum going.
PM sent! This is what the community aspect is about, looking forward to hearing you music and hopefully we'd be able to add it in /me raises hand for custom theme music in the future!

I wonder, could we have a teaser of the teaser? Perhaps just a still frame of some early video that you have, or something like that? I'm sure that most of us are dying to get a feel of the style / art direction that the YT channel will take - and I'm sure that a single frame will be enough to feed our expectations until September 

Yeah, that's definitely a risk. What about having some alternatives as well, some opininions regarding https://d.tube and others would be nice.

Regarding this I can only come out with an open source social network that has been gaining attention for a while now - Mastodon (Similar to Twitter basically).

[3dOOm]

Hey guys, first of all thank you for the ideas and support, we are more than grateful for that.
As Cyrus said, now we are working on artwork for the YouTube channel, we have some ideas and we managed to sketch a mock-up but we thought it would be much better if we involved the community in this, so I come to you with the following question:

What would you think of organizing a contest for the banner and the logo for the YouTube channel?

[funsponge]

I think that would start a very dangerous precedent : If they did that, why stop there? First of all, why would they ban something that has such a complex system - tamper-proof - behind it? Is it because it is unregulated? I've got lots of other content that YT could straight out ban from their platform - mostly related with so called "gurus" that prey upon people's hope of getting rich quick and end up robbing them of their investments (just an example). We could also talk about fake news being spread, alt-right channels spreading conspiracy theories, deepfake videos pretending to be someone else speech (I think we could go on and on about this).
If they do take this course of action towards anything honestly, our so called "free speech" would be in peril - I could be against everything that I've mentioned previously but I also have to be aware that people have the right to speak their points of views and discuss what they want to discuss - It's up to the viewer to listen/see that information and make critically and analytical evaluations (and here it's where most people end up failing I believe).

Google/Youtube is not known for their willingness to give freedom of speech. The guy behind infowars was banned from Youtube and other social medias because he was challenging the status quo. He did not break the rules but instead voiced his opinion his opinion is probably wrong and distressing to some people but he should have not been banned for it. Deepfake videos are removed on Youtube. If you report them they will be removed because Youtube has a rule against misinformation which is what they used to justify removing Alex Jones. I said that this could happen because Google has already been hostile towards Bitcoin by removing the ability to advertise cryptocurrencies on Google. I understand you are trying to say that it should not be removed because freedom speech is allowed in most countries but Google has proven before that they do not care about freedom of speech and will only allow content that they agree with. The InfoWars example is the best demonstration of their ability to remove anything they want without any backlash because he was universally hated by most people. I suggested that this should be a concern because it has been done before and we are not thinking of any alternatives.

Here is one of the articles about the ban (https://www.npr.org/2018/08/06/636030043/youtube-apple-and-facebook-ban-infowars-which-decries-mega-purge?t=1628512317300) Alex Jones was banned off Facebook, Apple and Youtube in the same day. They cited "glorying violence" as a reason why he was removed but if you have watched Alex Jones he might be a bit crazy but he never encourages or glorifies violence.

Yeah, that's definitely a risk. What about having some alternatives as well, some opininions regarding https://d.tube and others would be nice.

Yes I have not used d.tube but I think anything in addition to Youtube is a good idea. The money is at Youtube we know that but I do not like that they can remove anything they want without any public backlash.

[Welsh]

That's aiming pretty high, but if it ever were to happen I would love the chance to be able to donate something for the video or be involved somehow.  Would love to meet Jimmy and the team.  My current support has been confined to ordering Mr Beast Burgers and merchandise.  It's absolutely amazing what they've been able to accomplish using YouTube.  His philanthropy channel continues to grow and support more and more food banks.  

Yeah, it was more in jest than anything. We are relatively small timers I guess, and I don't watch enough of MrBeast's content to know if he's even interested in Bitcoin? I only know of him, and the type of content he does. I believe he puts in almost all of his sponsorship earnings back into the channel, and that's why he's able to give away thousands, and sometimes millions of dollars per video.

• this is a cool idea, hope someone will do it but might thing about doing it someday
• ok let's do it, but it's gotta be reasonably perfect, with the huge risk of nothing actually being done
• it's not going to be perfect, but someone has to do it!

I'm all too familiar with this process of thought. Whenever I'm tackling a somewhat complex problem, this is the exact thought process I go through. This is usually what prevents so many great ideas from actually becoming a reality. So, I'd definitely agree with the last thought process, someone has to do it.

Plus, it's not expected of you to make the most perfect product the first time trying. Usually Youtube channels or any project in general evolves over time. I mean look at Bitcoin in it's creation, it was obviously good, but there was many rough patches which were solved over time, with the community input. The process will roughly be the same, except the Youtube channel isn't open source, but the feedback will be the same.

[dkbit98]

What would you think of organizing a contest for the banner and the logo for the YouTube channel?

Good idea for organizing a contest, we have several active experienced designers in forum who are ready to jump in and start working on this right away.

Google/Youtube is not known for their willingness to give freedom of speech.

Google aka Youtube and other big tech are synonym for censorship and not allowing free speech, they even banned some crypto youtubers (not that I am supporting them in any way),
they had Bitcoin advertisement ban until recently and now they allow adds only with special terms, yet we can see crypto scam giveaway videos all the time.
It would be a good idea to post Bitcointalk videos on multiple platforms and some of them should be decentralized, not sure if Odysee is best or something better exists that I am not aware off.

[RickDeckard]

What would you think of organizing a contest for the banner and the logo for the YouTube channel?

I think it's a really good initiative! I've touched the subject on my first reply to the thread - see section Fun ideas that could be good(or not] - but this has been a recurrent suggestion, in one way or another:

In addition to what has been said, making small games/contests (price prediction, art contests, etc...) can be nice to win a small handful of BTC and/or why not a special badge (don't yell at me). As I'm evil, participants will have to post their answers on a dedicated topic on Bitcontalk (to avoid alts on YT and be at least a Jr Member or more to (almost) avoid alts on Bitcointalk).

  Well if the BitcointalkForumYouTube channel can bring some content like them, I believe it will create a bigger kind of promotion online.  Or maybe similar content, arrange a contest on any type of topic here in this forum (technical, content writing for BitcointalkForumYouTube, graphics work for BitcointalkForumYouTube channel, etc. which can be helpful for this forum and community) and put a big price for the winners.  It can help you bring out some new talent, also help people show off their skills to the whole community here.  Then broadcast the full competition on the BitcointalkForumYouTube channel.  It will bring in both educational and entertainment content

<...>

We're also working on the channel's artwork. We'll likely need more materials so if you know any crypto artists that would feel inspired by the idea, point them here!

I don't know how can I help in this one, but I'll just try to ping some winners of the previous art contest that I've mentioned on my reply a page or two ago : @Meddzs , @RiseX , @horagames, @1Dq , @Karmakid are you guys interested or know someone who may be?

Nice idea, just let me add two other graph-savy users: @xhomerx10 and @jayce (fancy a Bitcointalk.org YT channel signature?).

I think that already a (shall we say) "modest" userbase can really benefit us regarding the amount of ideas that could come from it - and since this is for sure a channel that will be focused on the community as well, what better way to "celebrate" this "union" by showing a banner and logo made by one of our member or members? I'm sure that there's demand from one side (our as members) and we've seen in the past that we can came up with pretty interesting designs.

(snip) Google has proven before that they do not care about freedom of speech and will only allow content that they agree with. The InfoWars example is the best demonstration of their ability to remove anything they want without any backlash because he was universally hated by most people. I suggested that this should be a concern because it has been done before and we are not thinking of any alternatives.

Here is one of the articles about the ban (https://www.npr.org/2018/08/06/636030043/youtube-apple-and-facebook-ban-infowars-which-decries-mega-purge?t=1628512317300) Alex Jones was banned off Facebook, Apple and Youtube in the same day. They cited "glorying violence" as a reason why he was removed but if you have watched Alex Jones he might be a bit crazy but he never encourages or glorifies violence.

I fully agree on that point of view - and we should be cautions with any kind of centralized platform but I also think that the current support that crypto (and especially BTC has) has far more reach and a support line that for sure would demand justification for the ban of crypto related causes and this is something that Google for sure will think twice before even stepping the foot on the measure itself (at least that's my point of view).

That's aiming pretty high, but if it ever were to happen I would love the chance to be able to donate something for the video or be involved somehow.  Would love to meet Jimmy and the team.  My current support has been confined to ordering Mr Beast Burgers and merchandise.  It's absolutely amazing what they've been able to accomplish using YouTube.  His philanthropy channel continues to grow and support more and more food banks. 

Yeah, it was more in jest than anything. We are relatively small timers I guess, and I don't watch enough of MrBeast's content to know if he's even interested in Bitcoin? I only know of him, and the type of content he does. I believe he puts in almost all of his sponsorship earnings back into the channel, and that's why he's able to give away thousands, and sometimes millions of dollars per video.
Mr.Beast business model is quite interesting in fact - if you've got 10 minutes to spare you can learn more about it here[1]. Basically it's a "vicious" loop - he gets tons of brands interesting in his videos who, in turn, give him a lot of money to do something in his videos and he basically chooses to invest most of that money into the video itself making him : A - Attract a great amount of leads to due to how huge the amount of money he gives away in the video (which he always makes a focus to) and this kind of exposure makes even more brands wanting a "dip" of the recipe. Rise & Repeat ...

Going back a bit on the art contest idea - I think that if we want to have a launch / first teaser around September, we could use this month of August to run the contest - we can even make it in more than one phase, where in each phase a set of contestants advance to the next one and others are "left behind". This, of course, would be more applicable if the amount of submissions / participants were fairly large (which I'm sure will be). And we must remember that the summer is a period where in some parts of Europe there are people in holidays, and we could get a slight less number of participants due to this (which I don't think it's a considerable amount to postpone this event)
[1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV0jN0P0Zi8

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Google aka Youtube and other big tech are synonym for censorship and not allowing free speech, they even banned some crypto youtubers

Also aka Alphabet if you weren't aware. 

And yes, they did ban a bunch of crypto-related videos a while back but then reversed the bans if I'm not mistaken, and now there are bitcoin and altcoin videos all over the place on Youtube.  I don't think a channel about bitcointalk will run up against the same problems.  Hopefully.

Google/Youtube is not known for their willingness to give freedom of speech. The guy behind infowars was banned from Youtube and other social medias because he was challenging the status quo.

They're definitely big into censorship of words (not necessarily content, strangely enough).  I started watching Silence of the Lambs on Youtube the other day and was surprised to see that they'd censored out some profanity--in a movie with as dark a theme as SotL, too!  And apparently mentioning COVID-19 or other key words will get your video demonetized.  However, this is another issue I don't think the bitcointalk channel will have much of a problem with, since it's not going to be a political one or one in which a lot of curse words are used.

Finding another platform would be ideal, but let's face it, Youtube is the place to be if you want to get your videos seen.

[OgNasty]

That's aiming pretty high, but if it ever were to happen I would love the chance to be able to donate something for the video or be involved somehow.  Would love to meet Jimmy and the team.  My current support has been confined to ordering Mr Beast Burgers and merchandise.  It's absolutely amazing what they've been able to accomplish using YouTube.  His philanthropy channel continues to grow and support more and more food banks.  

Yeah, it was more in jest than anything. We are relatively small timers I guess, and I don't watch enough of MrBeast's content to know if he's even interested in Bitcoin? I only know of him, and the type of content he does. I believe he puts in almost all of his sponsorship earnings back into the channel, and that's why he's able to give away thousands, and sometimes millions of dollars per video.

Mr Beast is actually a Bitcoin user. He has tweeted about it and gave away thousands of dollars in Bitcoin over Twitter. You never know, he may be willing to give a shout out or something if you got in contact with his team. He’s pretty good about not letting other people hijack his platform for clout, but maybe he’d be willing to do something for the chase if he really is a Bitcoiner… Can’t hurt to drop a few emails.

[Welsh]

Mr Beast is actually a Bitcoin user. He has tweeted about it and gave away thousands of dollars in Bitcoin over Twitter. You never know, he may be willing to give a shout out or something if you got in contact with his team. He’s pretty good about not letting other people hijack his platform for clout, but maybe he’d be willing to do something for the chase if he really is a Bitcoiner… Can’t hurt to drop a few emails.

That might make it possible in the future then. Although, contacting him now would likely look like we were trying to leach from his platform. Something that we want to avoid doing, realistically we would probably need to be offering more to him, otherwise he'll likely be skeptical.

They're definitely big into censorship of words (not necessarily content, strangely enough).  I started watching Silence of the Lambs on Youtube the other day and was surprised to see that they'd censored out some profanity--in a movie with as dark a theme as SotL, too! 

Absolute classic, you have good taste. Besides that though, surely Silence Of The Lambs is copyrighted, are you sure that it was Youtube that censored it, and not the video uploader? I find it weird that Youtube would review that video, censor out the bad words, but leave the video up considering it probably shouldn't be there in the first place. Unless you mean renting the movie off Youtube, don't they do something along those lines now?

[SFR10]

As Cyrus said, now we are working on artwork for the YouTube channel, we have some ideas and we managed to sketch a mock-up but we thought it would be much better if we involved the community in this, so I come to you with the following question:

What would you think of organizing a contest for the banner and the logo for the YouTube channel?

It'll be great, but don't you think it makes more sense to just let whoever that'll be responsible ^{[I'm guessing it's someone from your team]} for designing the video thumbnails, also handle the part for designing the logo and the banner?
^{- IMO, it's a bit weird to mix your work with someone else's style, even if you try your best to replicate and integrate their pattern into yours [results will always come out a bit differently].}

[NotATether]

Absolute classic, you have good taste. Besides that though, surely Silence Of The Lambs is copyrighted, are you sure that it was Youtube that censored it, and not the video uploader? I find it weird that Youtube would review that video, censor out the bad words, but leave the video up considering it probably shouldn't be there in the first place. Unless you mean renting the movie off Youtube, don't they do something along those lines now?

Youtube can't censor out words in the audio, only the subtitles.

Besides, assuming it wasn't on Youtube TV/Premium, it won't stay up for long anyway before the hollywood-based bot reporters report it to Youtube for copyright voilation.

[Pmalek]

A lot of youtubers have expressed their opinion about this where some legit channels were kicked off the platform without breaking any rules. Youtube is centralised and they only want content that identifies with their rules and values if Crypocurrency is one of those that does not I can see them removing all videos related to crypo.

They aren't doing that as far as I know. I remember reading about some youtubers having their videos deleted but I don't know the whole story. There are also crypto-related channels with hundreds of thousands of followers who have been broadcasting via YouTube without any problems for years.

A copyright claim could be the reason why a video or a whole channel suddenly disappears. Insert a video or song without the author's consent and that could be the end of your stay on YouTube.   
I don't think anyone recommended Steemit or Hive as possible platforms to advertise. YouTube and dTube works with these platforms and their userbase is interested in crypto. Could be interesting.

[RickDeckard]

The discussion on this topic - We need a new global moderator. - gave me one idea for another content that we could have on the channel : Interviews with Staff members. This, of course, would have to be made in the most private way possible, but I think that a selection of videos where each member (those willing of course) could share how his/her life is within the forum, what it means for them, how time do they dedicate to it ... I think that this could be a really interesting topic - we could even make this as a limited series where each episode would be for 1 specific staff member. This way we could look back in the future and get to know who were these persons behind the usernames.
From my point of view this could absolutely be complemented with members interviews - I just think that it could have it's own "limited series".

[aysg76]

The discussion on this topic - We need a new global moderator. - gave me one idea for another content that we could have on the channel : Interviews with Staff members. This, of course, would have to be made in the most private way possible, but I think that a selection of videos where each member (those willing of course) could share how his/her life is within the forum, what it means for them, how time do they dedicate to it ... I think that this could be a really interesting topic - we could even make this as a limited series where each episode would be for 1 specific staff member. This way we could look back in the future and get to know who were these persons behind the usernames.
From my point of view this could absolutely be complemented with members interviews - I just think that it could have it's own "limited series".

We have so many members who are working for the help of others here and sharing information and building up a strong network and making good contributions to the forum from a long time.Taking interviews from them on the channel and sharing their experience with all of us would indeed be a great privilege for other members and viewers.The interviews could be streamed in episodes format like we should have some technical people sharing how bitcoin works in any case and discussing every probability with them and have idea from them about the forum exploration.The main members of the forum from which we can learn a lot and take some personal interviews with them are as follows according to my opinion.

Code:

 Best contributors of Bitcointalk Forum:
1)Pooya87
2)LoyceV
3)The Pharmacist
4)Welsh
5)TryNinja
6)DdmrDdmr
7)BlackHatcoiner
8)Suchmoon
9)NotATether
10)Ranachigo

This is only first set of members with whom you can kickstart this interview sessions and later on increase the list size as there are many who needs to be on this list in next phases.

The first round of interview can be conducted with these members who can share great information with all of us if you are talking about taking interviews as they have been on the forum from a long time and when people listen to someone who can answers all the questions with smartness and ability then it leaves a different and detailed impression on the audience.I have also some suggestions for the youtube channel which i would like to share with the community and was hoping that Bitcoin talk come up with any such idea and publish some real bitcoin content as YouTube is filled with paid shitcoins and zero experienced crypto youtubers at this time diverting them to invest in rich schemes.But our channel will provide users with all the basic details and forum information in real life.I will also share my feelings after i sort out some really good ones in my mind.

[NotATether]

@Cyrus how's the filming going along? I know that it takes long for a one-man video crew to publish a video on Youtube.

Code:

9)NotAtEther

Here's a first interview answer: I spell it "NotATether" 

[aysg76]

@Cyrus how's the filming going along? I know that it takes long for a one-man video crew to publish a video on Youtube.

Code:

9)NotAtEther

Here's a first interview answer: I spell it "NotATether" 

Made correction on my post for your name and thanks for starting interview round

[shahzadafzal]

Here's a first interview answer: I spell it "NotATether"  

wow just one capital letter changed and the whole context becomes something else.. amazing   "NotAtEther" vs "NotATether"...

[Lafu]

As others already have written , i am also excited about and cant wait to see the Teaser and the channels artwork !
If you need maybe some kind of copyright free Music you can hit me up on a PM as i produce my one Music also , if you want and like.

The teaser and artwork should be ready this month, so the links and behind the scenes and teasers will go live before the first video. Get some momentum going.
PM sent! This is what the community aspect is about, looking forward to hearing you music and hopefully we'd be able to add it in /me raises hand for custom theme music in the future!

How did the filming day go, smooth sailing I assume?

I can imagine that he was nervous and excited at the same time maybe.

Yes!  

Awesome and looking forward to see and watch the Teaser and also the Channels artwork and the first Video !
Sended you a PM with a link to the Music and hope you like it and if not its also ok as we all have diffrent styles for Music.
But if you have any Idea and maybe you want something that i can do let me know , would be loving it to produce something .

[icopress]

This is only first set of members with whom you can kickstart this interview sessions and later on increase the list size as there are many who needs to be on this list in next phases.

Firstly in this list, I see the names of those who reject the idea of participating in the video interview, and secondly, even if one of them agrees, the viewers will not be interested in a person addressing the audience in a mask, (the thing is that most of these guys value their privacy much higher than their potential "popularity").