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Author Topic: 1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2)  (Read 138690 times)
DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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December 14, 2011, 04:16:17 PM
 #261

Actually I think this is the very first post where you indicated you have a dba filing as Butterfly Labs. 
There is no dba filing in the state of Missouri for "Butterfly Labs Inc."

D&T, "related dba filings underway" implies they're not through the process yet.  However, it's a valid question that you asked about before and hasn't been answered til now mostly because it's splitting hairs and the discussion hasn't been reasonable enough to warrant comment.  I think that's been remedied, so there are the details.

Having a DBA is legally relevant only when you're writing a check or entering into a legal relationship with a name that's not backed by a legal structure.  All our communication, merchant accounts & contracts are marked with BF Labs Inc.  So making a point of this is splitting hairs.  If you need to be right..  well, you are.  Is it relevant...  no...  not really.  In anycase, DBA's have been underway for quite some time and with a little patience, you'll be comforted to see them when you refresh your registry page.


Thanks for the clarification.  Personally I wouldn't list the company as "Butterfly Labs Inc." if that entity doesn't yet exist  I know in VA that is a "no-no" (legal term) but corporate law varies a lot from state to state and even in the same state professional lawyers often disagree.  If you feel you are in the right because all the contractual aspects are under name BFL well that's fine and I will leave it at that.

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D&T, in general you seem to have been at us with a fire poker.  I can understand why.  You were making a technical assessment that you believed in and mostly turned out to be right (regarding power draw).  However, I don't believe you've been particularly unfair along the way when you've had the facts...  and I appreciate that.

I don't like mysteries.  The mystery is now (mostly) solved.  I am still curious which FPGA is under that heatsink and how you got it at such attractive price points.   The 1.1V is interesting clue (if PCB is marked correctly).  My semi-educated guess is you scooped up a lot of 65nm FPGA at well below market price because of prior relationships and the manufacturer was looking to close out inventory.   I guess I will need to wait until a unit ships and someone is brave enough to remove the heatsink. 

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December 14, 2011, 04:22:04 PM
 #262

Heat and twist.  Heat and twist. Don't pull!

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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December 14, 2011, 04:25:11 PM
 #263

Heat and twist.  Heat and twist. Don't pull!


Yup NEVER pull.  I have no problems w/ the heat & twist method when it comes to a MB northbridge chip but a $700+ FPGA board.... well it all depends on how strong the adhesive is bonding the heatsink.  Some of that shit is strong.
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December 14, 2011, 04:27:33 PM
 #264

I want you to know I'm personally going after your "company", you will get the details soon. This was started about a month ago. You fucked up... Demanding I "shut up" and calling me a "child" is class:)   Sadly you wont be doing jail time for this.  I blame weak corporate laws... Anyway, get ready for small claims court.
Amazingly, in the US, people generally don't go to jail for insults. [something about the first amendment]

We do have an abundance of weak corporate laws, I'm afraid you will have to be more specific.
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December 14, 2011, 04:37:48 PM
 #265

Heat and twist.  Heat and twist. Don't pull!


Yup NEVER pull.  I have no problems w/ the heat & twist method when it comes to a MB northbridge chip but a $700+ FPGA board.... well it all depends on how strong the adhesive is bonding the heatsink.  Some of that shit is strong.

Oh crap, you were talking about chips?  ... damn, I posted in the wrong thread.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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~\/~


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December 14, 2011, 05:03:04 PM
 #266

Will it be possible to mine with this device at public mining pools with a rate of 1 GH/s or just at one pool from BFL ?

In other words, is this a software trick ?
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December 14, 2011, 05:04:26 PM
 #267

Heat and twist.  Heat and twist. Don't pull!


Yup NEVER pull.  I have no problems w/ the heat & twist method when it comes to a MB northbridge chip but a $700+ FPGA board.... well it all depends on how strong the adhesive is bonding the heatsink.  Some of that shit is strong.

Oh crap, you were talking about chips?  ... damn, I posted in the wrong thread.

Maybe you should take me up on my earlier offer for a workshop?

▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
▓▓ ONEDICE.ME ▓▓▓▓▓ BEST DICE EXPERIENCE ▓▓▓▓ PLAY OR INVEST ▓▓▓▓▓▓
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
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December 14, 2011, 05:06:16 PM
 #268

Heat and twist.  Heat and twist. Don't pull!


Yup NEVER pull.  I have no problems w/ the heat & twist method when it comes to a MB northbridge chip but a $700+ FPGA board.... well it all depends on how strong the adhesive is bonding the heatsink.  Some of that shit is strong.

Oh crap, you were talking about chips?  ... damn, I posted in the wrong thread.

Maybe you should take me up on my earlier offer for a workshop?
My eyes! My EYES!
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December 14, 2011, 06:31:50 PM
 #269

Will it be possible to mine with this device at public mining pools with a rate of 1 GH/s or just at one pool from BFL ?

In other words, is this a software trick ?

Any pool.  We mined on Deepbit and my pool to do some troubleshooting and some comparison data that I did not detail nor think is relevant to the test.  It uses a modified open source miner program - and the modified comes from the fact that it's modified to use the BFL hardware instead of CPU or GPU.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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1ngldh


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December 14, 2011, 07:27:26 PM
 #270

Will it be possible to mine with this device at public mining pools with a rate of 1 GH/s or just at one pool from BFL ?

In other words, is this a software trick ?

Any pool.  We mined on Deepbit and my pool to do some troubleshooting and some comparison data that I did not detail nor think is relevant to the test.  It uses a modified open source miner program - and the modified comes from the fact that it's modified to use the BFL hardware instead of CPU or GPU.

How hard to you think it would be to rip the important bits out and build it into conman's cgminer instead of ufasoft's miner?

Then we can have 1 miner to rule them all!

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
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December 14, 2011, 08:32:16 PM
 #271

Okay, I think I've discovered what I think you will all agree is a serious flaw.



If anyone has read Quarantine by Greg Bear ... thats what the box reminds me of.

Don't you mean... Greg Egan?
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December 14, 2011, 08:50:20 PM
 #272

Will it be possible to mine with this device at public mining pools with a rate of 1 GH/s or just at one pool from BFL ?

In other words, is this a software trick ?

Any pool.  We mined on Deepbit and my pool to do some troubleshooting and some comparison data that I did not detail nor think is relevant to the test.  It uses a modified open source miner program - and the modified comes from the fact that it's modified to use the BFL hardware instead of CPU or GPU.

How hard to you think it would be to rip the important bits out and build it into conman's cgminer instead of ufasoft's miner?

Then we can have 1 miner to rule them all!


I don't think it will be difficult at all.  In fact, I expect to see support for the box in a miner very shortly after a public release.

But... cgminer is probably not a good candidate, at least until it supports multiple logins on a per GPU basis.  That is the primary reason I don't use it, since it makes it impossible to monitor individual cards through a pool, and it's way too heavy a client to launch multiple instances.  Bad juju for a device you might want to put 10 or 20 on a single box.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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December 14, 2011, 09:59:07 PM
 #273

The legal entity is BF Labs Inc. which is a Wyoming corporation.  We operate under the brand entity Butterfly Labs with related dba filings underway for the various permutations of that name.  Any formal interaction with the company such as purchases and communication clearly states BF Labs Inc.

Here is the official entry in the Wyoming state corporate registry :
https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?FilingNum=2011-000606261
Care to explain why it's registered under Nancy Hernandez?

I hate to call you a liar, but what's preventing you from claiming that is your registration when it's not really yours? I can make up a site called xyz inc, and all i have to do is find a company with a similar name and i'm "registered". 

Why don't you update the registration to reflect your real address or provide another way to verify that registration is yours?

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

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December 14, 2011, 10:07:03 PM
 #274

Care to explain why it's registered under Nancy Hernandez?
It appears that Nancy Hernandez is most likely an employee of Pacific Registered Agents, Inc, the corporation acting as their registered agent in Wyoming. Slightly murky.

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December 14, 2011, 10:11:26 PM
 #275

Slightly murky.
But not necessarily evil or scam. Roll Eyes

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December 14, 2011, 10:31:25 PM
 #276

Note, I'm not a lawyer and this should not be taken as legal advice, but here's the answer to your question...

Corporate registry in any state requires a local address of record.  Certain states (Delaware and Wyoming are good examples) have worked hard to create attractive corporate taxation policy.  They do this mostly by not taxing assets or profit as long as they're out of state.  However, since an in state address must be provided for yearly filings and correspondence (minutes of record, board meetings, charter renewal etc) to maintain the legal body active and healthy from year to year, a registered agent specializing in these interactions is commonly retained.  This keeps the corporate assets and profits, which are out of state, free from in state taxation.  I think a casual review of business norms would reverse any thoughts about this being a murky practice.  It's simply how business is done and also why the vast majority of the US fortune 500 are registered in either Wyoming or Delaware.

Regards,
BFL

Butterfly Labs  -  www.butterflylabs.com  -  Bitcoin Mining Hardware
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December 14, 2011, 11:20:42 PM
 #277

Care to explain why it's registered under Nancy Hernandez?
It appears that Nancy Hernandez is most likely an employee of Pacific Registered Agents, Inc, the corporation acting as their registered agent in Wyoming. Slightly murky.

Not sure if we can take bittenbob at his word but according to him (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48863.msg615545#msg615545):
Quote
I understand the services these type of business provide and I have emailed an adminstrator with this company requesting information if BF Labs Inc. is registered there and if it is also Butterfly Labs inc. I have alerted them to the possiblity that this may be a scam and will update this thread when I hear a reply.
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Got a reply and its pretty definitive:

"No, they are not

Chad Sorensen

Sent from my iPhone"
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December 14, 2011, 11:38:38 PM
 #278

All these discussions on scams or no scams, maybe one member should just spare the $600 get a unit and start mining to see if it is as claimed.
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December 14, 2011, 11:48:48 PM
 #279

All these discussions on scams or no scams, maybe one member should just spare the $600 get a unit and start mining to see if it is as claimed.

Someone took the time to read the thread(s).

They haven't shipped yet, and also aren't operating to what BFL claims they will

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December 15, 2011, 12:24:58 AM
 #280

Note, I'm not a lawyer and this should not be taken as legal advice, but here's the answer to your question...

Corporate registry in any state requires a local address of record.  Certain states (Delaware and Wyoming are good examples) have worked hard to create attractive corporate taxation policy.  They do this mostly by not taxing assets or profit as long as they're out of state.  However, since an in state address must be provided for yearly filings and correspondence (minutes of record, board meetings, charter renewal etc) to maintain the legal body active and healthy from year to year, a registered agent specializing in these interactions is commonly retained.  This keeps the corporate assets and profits, which are out of state, free from in state taxation.  I think a casual review of business norms would reverse any thoughts about this being a murky practice.  It's simply how business is done and also why the vast majority of the US fortune 500 are registered in either Wyoming or Delaware.

Regards,
BFL
Like I said, just claiming a registration belongs to you isn't enough. You can say you own xyz.com all you want, but unless you do something to prove that you actually control that domain (update whois or add a subdomain), no one will believe you. The same applies to business registrations. You need to provide definitive proof that you control the registration. I also find it odd that you are suddenly replying to this concern, considering this was brought up over a month ago.

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

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