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Author Topic: 1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2)  (Read 138738 times)
worldinacoin
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December 15, 2011, 05:43:49 PM
 #301

I feel that the "scam" word is too harsh, but on the other hand it is certainly good to be prudent with money especially on the Internet.
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fred0
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December 15, 2011, 09:39:29 PM
 #302

It looks like the ufasoft miner does not need to be modified anymore.

BitForce support is in the main release.  Nice.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3486.0
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December 15, 2011, 10:32:51 PM
 #303

It looks like the ufasoft miner does not need to be modified anymore.

BitForce support is in the main release.  Nice.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3486.0

So then the ufasoft guy is on it too Tongue ? Hehe. Has anyone actually received a unit yet for a forum style review etc. ?

Thanks !
uck
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December 16, 2011, 02:46:45 AM
 #304

Does anyone know, would square trade sell an extended warranty for this sort of product?

fred0
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December 16, 2011, 03:08:42 AM
 #305

Does anyone know, would square trade sell an extended warranty for this sort of product?
I just plugged in the info for the Single and got an instant quote of $85 for 3 years.  I think that if you are interested that you should contact them. Not really sure if the instant quote is valid for the Single.

http://www.squaretrade.com/pages/

[Edit: Used the wrong category for the instant quote. Repeated quote with correct category got same numbers. Updated image.]
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December 17, 2011, 12:15:21 AM
 #306

With $599, $3.10/BTC, $0.115/KWh, 830 MH/s, 80 W, and current difficulty (1155038), it will take 9.75 months to pay off an investment in BitForce Singles. I want a warranty that assures me the hardware will last at least that long.

BFL: Please consider offering a 1 year warranty, perhaps for a small additional fee if you must.
Yes, I see this as a key characteristic: an investment in a BitForce Single requires (in the current environment) 10 months to pay off. Sure, profitability can go up but can just as easily (perhaps more easily) go down before then. Buyers are operating at a loss until that time.

And let's not forget, in 12 months time the mining reward will be cut in half (25 BTC/block instead of the current 50 BTC/block). I would expect a standard hardware warranty of 1 year for this product. This is a solid-state device, after all; the only moving part is the fan.

Does BFL have such a low confidence in the quality/longevity of the product to only offer 6 months?  This does not inspire me. Undecided

Inaba, in your experience with the product can you provide your subjective opinion of the Single's fan noise (I'm assuming it is a standard 80mm fan by the screenshots I've seen; hopefully user-replaceable)? How does the noise compare to a typical mining GPU under load?

BTC: 1DJVUnLuPA2bERTkyeir8bKn1eSoRCrYvx
NMC: NFcfHSBBnq622pAr1Xoh9KtnBPA5CUn6id
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December 17, 2011, 12:58:59 AM
 #307

The fan is a standard 80mm fan and can be replaced by the user with a screwdriver.  The noise was not noticeable, but were in a noisy environment.  I don't know what the exact decible level was, but with the fan being so standard, replacing it with a more noise/more CFM or a quieter one is certainly easy.  In either case, though, it was not a Delta fan or anything.  If I had to guess right now, I would say a 26 - 30 dB fan, but that's purely a guess.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
coinjedi
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December 17, 2011, 04:13:40 AM
 #308

Since the official specs are updated I will decide the bet as "True" this weekend and distribute the coins. Please raise objections if you have any.
http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=141
Thank you everyone for your participation.

Bets of Bitcoin
http://betsofbitco.in/
rjk
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December 17, 2011, 04:51:02 AM
 #309

Since the official specs are updated I will decide the bet as "True" this weekend and distribute the coins. Please raise objections if you have any.
http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=141
Thank you everyone for your participation.
No objection, but I would like to submit for the record that that was a poorly worded bet. Oh well.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
fred0
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December 17, 2011, 05:14:56 AM
 #310

Since the official specs are updated I will decide the bet as "True" this weekend and distribute the coins. Please raise objections if you have any.
http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=141
Thank you everyone for your participation.
No objection, but I would like to submit for the record that that was a poorly worded bet. Oh well.
I know, the intent of the bet was to show the widget was a scam, in the end it became a bet on delivery dates.  I have no objections.
DeathAndTaxes
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December 17, 2011, 05:37:16 AM
 #311

Since the official specs are updated I will decide the bet as "True" this weekend and distribute the coins. Please raise objections if you have any.
http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=141
Thank you everyone for your participation.
No objection, but I would like to submit for the record that that was a poorly worded bet. Oh well.
I know, the intent of the bet was to show the widget was a scam, in the end it became a bet on delivery dates.  I have no objections.

Delivery date?  Even if they were shipping now the product doesn't meet the price or power claims as specified in the bet. 
fred0
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December 17, 2011, 05:41:01 AM
 #312

Since the official specs are updated I will decide the bet as "True" this weekend and distribute the coins. Please raise objections if you have any.
http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=141
Thank you everyone for your participation.
No objection, but I would like to submit for the record that that was a poorly worded bet. Oh well.
I know, the intent of the bet was to show the widget was a scam, in the end it became a bet on delivery dates.  I have no objections.

Delivery date?  Even if they were shipping now the product doesn't meet the price or power claims as specified in the bet. 
Price hasn't changed. Hash power, yet to be determined for production version.  Power consumption,  you win.  Wow, they sure did pull a scam...
fred0
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December 17, 2011, 05:57:05 AM
 #313

I know, the intent of the bet was to show the widget was a scam, in the end it became a bet on delivery dates.  I have no objections.
Delivery date?  Even if they were shipping now the product doesn't meet the price or power claims as specified in the bet.  
Out of all of their numbers the only one they are going to hit is their price. (assuming this is not a scam and they do ship these out)

They wont ship in time (who knows how long it will take. They said at least a month, might be 2 or 3??  The last tim they said 4 to 6 weeks it turned out to be much much longer.)

Their power use will be at least 300% off of what they said.

Their "current" hashing rate is 15% less than what they claimed.

Assuming they do ship these within the next 6 months scam wont be the best word but I can't think of anything off the top of my head that fits better.

I also did not like the terms of that bet. That why my terms gave them 25% on their numbers. At 25% they failed at power and shipping date.
Like I said, I have no objections to the bet being decided as "Agree"

I also said the the terms of Goat's bet was fair. [I didn't have any money bet with Goat -- so others may still disagree]

But I wonder, IF the widget was shipped on time delivering 1.05 GH/s but consuming 60 Watts, would it be considered a scam?

Because we really don't know what the final hashing output will be, but we can pretty much agree that the power consumption will be much higher than originally stated.  
fred0
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December 17, 2011, 06:37:44 AM
 #314

"But I wonder, IF the widget was shipped on time delivering 1.05 GH/s but consuming 60 Watts, would it be considered a scam?"

I would say no, its not a scam if they got close to that. However at this point we do not know if any units will ever be shipped or if they will function.

I think "cluster fuck" is a better word to use at this point than scam. However it might turn out to still be a scam.
That's a little harsh.  Maybe I'm too trusting. I have a hunch that the production version will be really close to the hash power originally estimated, but at a much higher power consumption.  Unfortunately they didn't have someone like DeathAndTaxes to set them straight before they gave their power estimates.

What can you do? Just remember, "Every kick in the ass is one step forward."
deepceleron
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December 17, 2011, 08:49:49 AM
 #315

The product could have easily been kept under wraps until it was ready to ship or they had working prototypes. I think the reason you heard about it was because they had no capital, so the full-price preorders (with specs based on guesses and simulations) were used to pay for the development and production.

fred0
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December 17, 2011, 01:25:33 PM
 #316

The product could have easily been kept under wraps until it was ready to ship or they had working prototypes. I think the reason you heard about it was because they had no capital, so the full-price preorders (with specs based on guesses and simulations) were used to pay for the development and production.
Well, we wouldn't have been able to take advantage of the pre-order pricing Wink.  Also, time is of the essence, it really is hard to say with certainty what bitcoin pricing will be 1+ years out. The pre-order allows us to mine ASAP to take advantage of the last year of 25+% bitcoin inflation.

If we are lucky, and I think we are, a new wave of bitcoin adoption will trigger a bubble this year.  The inflated pricing will allow much quicker hardware payback than otherwise possible.  

If we are not lucky, expect to slowly recoup hardware costs throughout the year.  This time next year, block reward halves, cost per bitcoin doubles. If price per bitcoin does not follow, then expect a huge drop in network hash rate as huge numbers of GPU based operations cease due to revenue being cut in half, and would be operating at a loss. Difficulty drops, FPGA based mining operations are still profitable.

If we are disastrously unlucky, bitcoin fails. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200. We lose. I really don't see this as a likely outcome.  But we never see the car that sideswipes us until it is too late.
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December 18, 2011, 03:48:07 AM
 #317

I think "cluster fuck" is a better word to use at this point than scam. However it might turn out to still be a scam.
That's a little harsh.
Harsh? Hardly. Imagine AMD just announced the 7970 will run at 200 watts. Can you image the sort of uproar that would occur if in Jan, when they arrive, they consume 800 watts each?!

Buy & Hold
fred0
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December 18, 2011, 04:12:44 AM
 #318

I think "cluster fuck" is a better word to use at this point than scam. However it might turn out to still be a scam.
That's a little harsh.
Harsh? Hardly. Imagine AMD just announced the 7970 will run at 200 watts. Can you image the sort of uproar that would occur if in Jan, when they arrive, they consume 800 watts each?!
The only people who don't make mistakes are people who don't do anything. I hardly consider this error a cluster fuck.  It's not a cluster of anything. If you consider it to be that serious an issue, buy another FPGA, see how that works out.  Good luck with your search for the perfect FPGA, let us know how that turns out--in a different thread.
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December 18, 2011, 04:16:15 AM
 #319

Since the official specs are updated I will decide the bet as "True" this weekend and distribute the coins. Please raise objections if you have any.
http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=141
Thank you everyone for your participation.
No objection, but I would like to submit for the record that that was a poorly worded bet. Oh well.
I know, the intent of the bet was to show the widget was a scam, in the end it became a bet on delivery dates.  I have no objections.

Delivery date?  Even if they were shipping now the product doesn't meet the price or power claims as specified in the bet. 
Price hasn't changed. Hash power, yet to be determined for production version.  Power consumption,  you win.  Wow, they sure did pull a scam...
Let's put this in perspective.

They were off by a factor of 3.

Imagine someone saying "I overclocked my CPU to get 12 GHz".  When they actually test the CPU, it gets 4 GHz.

A factor of 3 is the difference between mediocre and being way better than the world record.




If they intentionally told us the wrong number when they know the right number, then yes, it is a scam.

If they unintentionally off by a factor of 3, then they are idiots.
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December 18, 2011, 04:19:16 AM
 #320

If they intentionally told us the wrong number when they know the right number, then yes, it is a scam.

If they unintentionally off by a factor of 3, then they are idiots.
Good, your mind is made up. Don't buy from BFL. You have it all worked out.
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