Bitcoin Forum
December 10, 2016, 06:44:27 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 [17] 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 ... 81 »
  Print  
Author Topic: 1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2)  (Read 138937 times)
bulanula
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518



View Profile
December 18, 2011, 12:22:24 PM
 #321

So when will these ship now ? Presumably in 2012 then, right ? When is that final version of the hardware with the fixed power issues coming ?
1481395467
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481395467

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481395467
Reply with quote  #2

1481395467
Report to moderator
1481395467
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481395467

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481395467
Reply with quote  #2

1481395467
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481395467
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481395467

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481395467
Reply with quote  #2

1481395467
Report to moderator
1481395467
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481395467

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481395467
Reply with quote  #2

1481395467
Report to moderator
1481395467
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481395467

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481395467
Reply with quote  #2

1481395467
Report to moderator
defxor
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 530


View Profile
December 19, 2011, 12:22:05 AM
 #322

Let's put this in perspective.

They were off by a factor of 3.

Imagine someone saying "I overclocked my CPU to get 12 GHz".  When they actually test the CPU, it gets 4 GHz.

Much closer to reality:

Company says "I have something that runs programs at 12 megaops"

You tell them there is a market for something that runs programs fast.

Company says they'll give you that 12 mops system they have, and then finds out that your programs have quite specific requirements which makes the product only run them at 4 megaops (while still able to execute regular programs at 12)

FPGAs aren't CPUs, nor are they GPUs, which invalidates a few of the later posts on how "off" the estimations were. Should BFL have kept quiet about expected power usage for typical scenarios and waited until they knew exactly how Bitcoin mining would task the system?

Sure, Maybe, No. Take your pick.



Epoch
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 917



View Profile
December 19, 2011, 04:31:43 AM
 #323

Let's put this in perspective.

They were off by a factor of 3.

Imagine someone saying "I overclocked my CPU to get 12 GHz".  When they actually test the CPU, it gets 4 GHz.

Much closer to reality:

Company says "I have something that runs programs at 12 megaops"

You tell them there is a market for something that runs programs fast.

Company says they'll give you that 12 mops system they have, and then finds out that your programs have quite specific requirements which makes the product only run them at 4 megaops (while still able to execute regular programs at 12)

FPGAs aren't CPUs, nor are they GPUs, which invalidates a few of the later posts on how "off" the estimations were. Should BFL have kept quiet about expected power usage for typical scenarios and waited until they knew exactly how Bitcoin mining would task the system?

Sure, Maybe, No. Take your pick.
Even closer to reality:
- company says "we have a 1.05GHash/s, 20W box"
- you tell them there is a market for it (bitcoin mining) that they may not have first realized
- company says they'll give you that 1.05GHash/s, 20W box for it, but later finds out that their FPGA internal switching rate is so much higher for bitcoin mining (which they didn't target originally) that they have to underclock their system by 15% (down to 832MHash/s) and draw 4x the power (80W).

I don't think there is much doubt that such a box exists (Inaba has seen 2 in operation); BFL stated they would likely get the power draw down a bit by doubling the capacity of the onboard power regulators and by beefing up the power brick.

At this point a more relevant question would be: how does the 4x power draw affect the FPGAs? BFL's original cooling solution (small heatsinks and 80mm fan) was designed for a 20W heat envelope. Now the heat is 80W ... is that same cooling subsystem still sufficient, or will the FPGA's run too hot and have reduced lifetime? Typical designs are overengineered for 2x the nominal spec. 2x 20W is 40W; 80W is beyond even that.

BTC: 1DJVUnLuPA2bERTkyeir8bKn1eSoRCrYvx
NMC: NFcfHSBBnq622pAr1Xoh9KtnBPA5CUn6id
makomk
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686


View Profile
December 19, 2011, 11:16:16 AM
 #324

Even closer to reality:
- company says "we have a 1.05GHash/s, 20W box"
- you tell them there is a market for it (bitcoin mining) that they may not have first realized
- company says they'll give you that 1.05GHash/s, 20W box for it, but later finds out that their FPGA internal switching rate is so much higher for bitcoin mining (which they didn't target originally) that they have to underclock their system by 15% (down to 832MHash/s) and draw 4x the power (80W).
That's not quite right; as I understand it the reason the internal switching rate is so high is the 1.05 GHash/s of SHA-256 in itself. In theory it's inherent to this kind of high-speed hashing. (Not that there's really many uses for this sort of hash rate other than Bitcoin mining anyway...)

Quad XC6SLX150 Board: 860 MHash/s or so.
SIGS ABOUT BUTTERFLY LABS ARE PAID ADS
legolouman
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 448


Decent Programmer to boot!


View Profile
December 19, 2011, 11:39:44 AM
 #325

Let's put this in perspective.

They were off by a factor of 3.

Imagine someone saying "I overclocked my CPU to get 12 GHz".  When they actually test the CPU, it gets 4 GHz.

Much closer to reality:

Company says "I have something that runs programs at 12 megaops"

You tell them there is a market for something that runs programs fast.

Company says they'll give you that 12 mops system they have, and then finds out that your programs have quite specific requirements which makes the product only run them at 4 megaops (while still able to execute regular programs at 12)

FPGAs aren't CPUs, nor are they GPUs, which invalidates a few of the later posts on how "off" the estimations were. Should BFL have kept quiet about expected power usage for typical scenarios and waited until they knew exactly how Bitcoin mining would task the system?

Sure, Maybe, No. Take your pick.
Even closer to reality:
- company says "we have a 1.05GHash/s, 20W box"
- you tell them there is a market for it (bitcoin mining) that they may not have first realized
- company says they'll give you that 1.05GHash/s, 20W box for it, but later finds out that their FPGA internal switching rate is so much higher for bitcoin mining (which they didn't target originally) that they have to underclock their system by 15% (down to 832MHash/s) and draw 4x the power (80W).

I don't think there is much doubt that such a box exists (Inaba has seen 2 in operation); BFL stated they would likely get the power draw down a bit by doubling the capacity of the onboard power regulators and by beefing up the power brick.

At this point a more relevant question would be: how does the 4x power draw affect the FPGAs? BFL's original cooling solution (small heatsinks and 80mm fan) was designed for a 20W heat envelope. Now the heat is 80W ... is that same cooling subsystem still sufficient, or will the FPGA's run too hot and have reduced lifetime? Typical designs are overengineered for 2x the nominal spec. 2x 20W is 40W; 80W is beyond even that.


But this box was designed for Bitcoin. Hence the 'BitForce' Line

If you love me, you'd give me a Satoshi!
BTC - 1MSzGKh5znbrcEF2qTrtrWBm4ydH5eT49f
LTC - LYeJrmYQQvt6gRQxrDz66XTwtkdodx9udz
finway
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 714


View Profile
December 19, 2011, 01:30:17 PM
 #326

It's real ?
Has anyone tested it?


Inaba
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile WWW
December 19, 2011, 01:38:56 PM
 #327

OMG. Seriously?

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
Raoul Duke
aka psy
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1442



View Profile
December 19, 2011, 01:47:18 PM
 #328

It's real ?
Has anyone tested it?



Can't read?

grue
Global Moderator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1932



View Profile
December 19, 2011, 06:33:47 PM
 #329

But this box was designed for Bitcoin. Hence the 'BitForce' Line
implying they make any other boxes other than "bitforce"

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Tired of annoying signature ads? Ad block for signatures
rph
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 176


View Profile
December 20, 2011, 06:23:13 PM
 #330

Are these shipping yet? If not, what's the ship date?

-rph

Ultra-Low-Cost DIY FPGA Miner: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=44891
BFL
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 217



View Profile WWW
December 20, 2011, 08:12:25 PM
 #331

Are these shipping yet? If not, what's the ship date?

-rph


We're currently in manufacture with our revision B PCB with the larger power regulator.  Our expected ship date for pre-ordered BitForce Singles is mid January. 

Regards,
BFL

Butterfly Labs  -  www.butterflylabs.com  -  Bitcoin Mining Hardware
RandyFolds
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 434



View Profile
December 20, 2011, 08:26:02 PM
 #332

Are these shipping yet? If not, what's the ship date?

-rph


We're currently in manufacture with our revision B PCB with the larger power regulator.  Our expected ship date for pre-ordered BitForce Singles is mid January. 

Regards,
BFL


So in other words, 4-6 weeks?  Cheesy

▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
▓▓ ONEDICE.ME ▓▓▓▓▓ BEST DICE EXPERIENCE ▓▓▓▓ PLAY OR INVEST ▓▓▓▓▓▓
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
wndrbr3d
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 295


View Profile
December 20, 2011, 10:48:40 PM
 #333

We're sorry for the hiccup, so until the greater performance potential is demonstrated, our BitForce Single will be reduced to $599. 

I'm late to the party and am still catching up on this thread, but this line right here is suuuuuper telling on how BFL might operate as a business.

Obviously they had to know ahead of this test how their product performs, and not until a test was published do they come clean with the REAL numbers?  Huh

That being said, I agree with other people in this thread that, if anything, this entire demonstration really makes the case for small time FPGA developers here due to their openness and honesty when it comes to their products performance as well as build quality.

Wow.
ursa
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 72


View Profile
December 20, 2011, 11:39:52 PM
 #334

What i don't understand is how they came up with those figures of 20W and ~1GH/s...You have to test to find these figures...They have tested their "technology"  to "public" only ~1 week ago ,getting ~800Mh/s and 80W.(in front of a forum member) ,but i believe that their "real world test" wasn't made too long before that meeting with the forum member.
There is a big difference between theory and practice,especially in electronics...You have to test first and then advertise ,not read some specs and start advertising and collecting money.
In my opinion,BFL has little experience in this things...I am not saying that i know too much,but i have learned that theory is not = practice,especially in elecronics.Anyone who has something to do with electronics knows this.
Or they don't know shit about electronics and they had an ideea and they know person X and person Y and try to put a device together or there is a big lie around...To me ,this whole thing doesn't make sense, I mean the course of events....
Please correct me if i am wrong,but don't start to tell stupid things about this post...this is just my personal opinion.
plastic.elastic
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 168


View Profile
December 20, 2011, 11:45:31 PM
 #335

What i don't understand is how they came up with those figures of 20W and ~1GH/s...You have to test to find these figures...They have tested their "technology"  to "public" only ~1 week ago ,getting ~800Mh/s and 80W.(in front of a forum member) ,but i believe that their "real world test" wasn't made too long before that meeting with the forum member.
There is a big difference between theory and practice,especially in electronics...You have to test first and then advertise ,not read some specs and start advertising and collecting money.
In my opinion,BFL has little experience in this things...I am not saying that i know too much,but i have learned that theory is not = practice,especially in elecronics.Anyone who has something to do with electronics knows this.
Or they don't know shit about electronics and they had an ideea and they know person X and person Y and try to put a device together or there is a big lie around...To me ,this whole thing doesn't make sense, I mean the course of events....
Please correct me if i am wrong,but don't start to tell stupid things about this post...this is just my personal opinion.


SSHHHHH

Sheep dont want to ask any questions.


Tips gladly accepted: 1LPaxHPvpzN3FbaGBaZShov3EFafxJDG42
Syke
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2100


View Profile
December 20, 2011, 11:47:28 PM
 #336

What i don't understand is how they came up with those figures of 20W and ~1GH/s...You have to test to find these figures...
Those were made-up numbers meant to 1. garner attention, and 2. convince people not to buy competing products. Obvious bait-and-switch scam.

Buy & Hold
grue
Global Moderator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1932



View Profile
December 21, 2011, 12:50:20 AM
 #337

What i don't understand is how they came up with those figures of 20W and ~1GH/s...You have to test to find these figures...
they're basically using all this forum attention to sell their mediocre FPGAs, which by the time they ship it (if ever), would probably have the same performance as existing ones. even if everyone canceled their preorders because the specs don't match, they essentially got 2+ months of interest free loan.

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Tired of annoying signature ads? Ad block for signatures
Keefe
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 681


View Profile
December 21, 2011, 01:04:40 AM
 #338

Are these shipping yet? If not, what's the ship date?

-rph


We're currently in manufacture with our revision B PCB with the larger power regulator.  Our expected ship date for pre-ordered BitForce Singles is mid January. 

Regards,
BFL


Do you have many completed or almost completed Rev A units that you'd consider selling with a drastically reduced clock to keep the heat and power draw within spec, with a deep discount to correspond with the low hashrate? I wonder if you might have boards that are now otherwise useless because of the discovery of higher power draw than expected.

worldinacoin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 658



View Profile WWW
December 21, 2011, 01:10:32 AM
 #339

I really hope for some production units rather than pre-order again and again Sad
Inaba
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260



View Profile WWW
December 21, 2011, 01:11:27 AM
 #340

Quote
they're basically using all this forum attention to sell their mediocre FPGAs, which by the time they ship it (if ever), would probably have the same performance as existing ones. even if everyone canceled their preorders because the specs don't match, they essentially got 2+ months of interest free loan.

First of all, I don't see any competing FPGAs with the same performance envelope.  Second, if by some chance someone does have a competing FPGA around the same envelope by that time, then nothing was really lost as far as "bait-and-switch" goes, since currently, there is nothing released that is even close to the neutered version that was demonstrated... and if they manage to get something that performs better than what was demonstrated, that's just icing on the cake.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 [17] 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 ... 81 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!