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Author Topic: 1GH/s, 20w, $700 (was $500) — Butterflylabs, is it for real? (Part 2)  (Read 138824 times)
rjk
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December 03, 2011, 10:31:25 PM
 #61

I don't mean to be skeptical (still) but all of their numbers appear to be 'projected numbers'. From what they are saying, they are currently not hitting/not capable of hitting these numbers, so they make less optimistic calculations, and again, and again. People probably won't get 1.05 G/H at 20W for quite some time in that case.

umm, i don't mean to spoil your buzz, but:

2.  We're currently running stable in the speed range specified.
3.  The power will likely be higher by an as yet determined margin.

In sum, only one of the three is changing and as stated in our pre-order terms, performance is guaranteed to meet the specifications listed or the order can be canceled for a full refund.

That means that the GH/s are correct, and only the wattage is higher (at this point). To me, the relative power usage is still WAY under what it could be, and is therefore a good deal.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
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legolouman
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December 03, 2011, 10:43:51 PM
 #62

I don't mean to be skeptical (still) but all of their numbers appear to be 'projected numbers'. From what they are saying, they are currently not hitting/not capable of hitting these numbers, so they make less optimistic calculations, and again, and again. People probably won't get 1.05 G/H at 20W for quite some time in that case.

umm, i don't mean to spoil your buzz, but:

2.  We're currently running stable in the speed range specified.
3.  The power will likely be higher by an as yet determined margin.

In sum, only one of the three is changing and as stated in our pre-order terms, performance is guaranteed to meet the specifications listed or the order can be canceled for a full refund.

That means that the GH/s are correct, and only the wattage is higher (at this point). To me, the relative power usage is still WAY under what it could be, and is therefore a good deal.

That's the reassurance I was looking for. Power usage is still way lower than any GPU array can compete with, so there are no complaints there.

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December 03, 2011, 10:48:18 PM
 #63

That's the reassurance I was looking for. Power usage is still way lower than any GPU array can compete with, so there are no complaints there.
OK  Grin Its easy to miss some stuff by accident, not trying to be pissy at you. Wink

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
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December 03, 2011, 10:53:13 PM
 #64

I certainly wouldn't cancel any pre-order about missing this target. Obviously, the closer to the target that better!
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December 03, 2011, 10:57:38 PM
 #65

That's the reassurance I was looking for. Power usage is still way lower than any GPU array can compete with, so there are no complaints there.
OK  Grin Its easy to miss some stuff by accident, not trying to be pissy at you. Wink

Oh no, I fully understand. I didn't take it like you were pissy. I don't actively watch the numbers like other people, I just seem to blurt out what I'm thinking. After I'm told I'm mostly wrong, I go back to monitoring. It is a pretty easy tactic.

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December 04, 2011, 06:12:16 AM
 #66

Keep in mind that 40W more power only costs you about $40 per year more in electricity at typical US rates. (using 11.4c/KWh to make the numbers come out easy)

I like to use 1 year for projecting whether such a mining device is worth investing in. So go ahead and give me a device that uses 60W instead of 20W, discount the purchase price by $40, and I'm happy. A year from now, surely I'll either be out of bitcoin mining altogether, or will have upgraded to much better hardware anyway.

At this point, I mostly just care about $/MH. I can build GPU rigs at about $0.60/MH, and they have more certain future resale value. I'm willing to pay up to $0.75/MH for FPGA-based miners, because going from 400W/GH to 60W/GH is a major savings in power cost, and it's much easier to deal with the heat. At $2.50/BTC at current mining difficulty at 11.4c/KWh, a $0.75/MH 60W/GH rig recoups its cost in 11.5 months.

In my opinion, ROI is becoming the primary factor in bitcoin mining, not so much W/GH. I think few serious investors want to pour money into mining rigs without a good chance of getting it back in a year.

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December 04, 2011, 07:07:17 AM
 #67

Keep in mind that 40W more power only costs you about $40 per year more in electricity at typical US rates. (using 11.4c/kwh to make the numbers come out easy)

I like to use 1 year for projecting whether such a mining device is worth investing in. So go ahead and give me a device that uses 60W instead of 20W, discount the purchase price by $40, and I'm happy. A year from now, surely I'll either be out of bitcoin mining altogether, or will have upgraded to much better hardware anyway.

At this point, I mostly just care about $/MH. I can build GPU rigs at about $0.60/MH, and they have more certain future resale value. I'm willing to pay up to $0.75/MH for FPGA-based miners, because going from 400W/MH to 60W/MH is a major savings in power cost, and it's much easier to deal with the heat. At $2.50/BTC at current mining difficulty at 11.4c/kwh, a $0.75/MH 60W/MH rig recoups its cost in 11.5 months.

In my opinion, ROI is becoming the primary factor in bitcoin mining, not so much W/MH. I think few serious investors want to pour money into mining rigs without a good chance of getting it back in a year.

+1 !!!
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December 04, 2011, 07:35:58 AM
 #68

Oops, I meant W/GH, not W/MH.

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December 04, 2011, 01:11:46 PM
 #69

60W power would still be advantageous to most people. What about the heat and noise they produce ?
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December 05, 2011, 03:03:09 AM
 #70

60W power would still be advantageous to most people. What about the heat and noise they produce ?

I doubt there's much noise from such a small fan, but how do they stack? Wouldn't the intakes get blocked if they were stacked? Perhaps they have feet on the bottom that are tall enough to allow incoming airflow.

Hey BFL: What are the approximate internal measurements of these pretty cases you are using? (Internal, between the binding posts) I would like to see if one of them could contain a Nano-ITX embedded system.  Would you be willing to sell the cases empty for other projects? Or at least the 3d drawings of them with measurements...

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
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December 05, 2011, 04:04:19 AM
 #71

I doubt there's much noise from such a small fan, but how do they stack? Wouldn't the intakes get blocked if they were stacked? Perhaps they have feet on the bottom that are tall enough to allow incoming airflow.
The web site states 32db as sound level, hopefully, that is the measured sound from a closed unit. If you have a delta fan, you know what I mean.
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December 05, 2011, 08:02:00 AM
 #72

I'm willing to pay up to $0.75/MH for FPGA-based miners, because going from 400W/GH to 60W/GH is a major savings in power cost, and it's much easier to deal with the heat.

$0.75/MH is pretty much impossible in a fully assembled/tested product using current FPGAs. Maybe next year with 28nm.


-rph

Ultra-Low-Cost DIY FPGA Miner: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=44891
Brian DeLoach
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December 05, 2011, 04:23:43 PM
 #73

we didn't start this thread or announce ourselves at all...We were discovered in mid development by a few in the bitcoin community...we put up a pre-order page to keep it orderly...gmax heard about our project and posted...we hadn't expected to enter the market at the time our project was discovered.

You launched a website showcasing your product and you're surprised that it got found out? Before gmax, how did the "few in the bitcoin community" find out about your product? Did you expect them to be quite about it?


BFL, can you address this post please? Thanks.

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December 05, 2011, 04:46:30 PM
 #74

we didn't start this thread or announce ourselves at all...We were discovered in mid development by a few in the bitcoin community...we put up a pre-order page to keep it orderly...gmax heard about our project and posted...we hadn't expected to enter the market at the time our project was discovered.

You launched a website showcasing your product and you're surprised that it got found out? Before gmax, how did the "few in the bitcoin community" find out about your product? Did you expect them to be quite about it?


BFL, can you address this post please? Thanks.

Sorry..   thought it was a rhetorical question.  I don't think there's anything remarkable about building a website prior to expected product release.  The response on the other hand was sort of like stepping on a bear trap and caught us completely off guard.  We're not bitcoiners...   well, we weren't bitcoiners anyway.  One of our team had a friend in the bitcoin community who seemed pretty interested in our BitForce platform development and we've been pulled forward by that conversation ever since.

Butterfly Labs  -  www.butterflylabs.com  -  Bitcoin Mining Hardware
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December 05, 2011, 04:54:14 PM
 #75

we didn't start this thread or announce ourselves at all...We were discovered in mid development by a few in the bitcoin community...we put up a pre-order page to keep it orderly...gmax heard about our project and posted...we hadn't expected to enter the market at the time our project was discovered.

You launched a website showcasing your product and you're surprised that it got found out? Before gmax, how did the "few in the bitcoin community" find out about your product? Did you expect them to be quite about it?


BFL, can you address this post please? Thanks.

Sorry..   thought it was a rhetorical question.  I don't think there's anything remarkable about building a website prior to expected product release.  The response on the other hand was sort of like stepping on a bear trap and caught us completely off guard.  We're not bitcoiners...   well, we weren't bitcoiners anyway.  One of our team had a friend in the bitcoin community who seemed pretty interested in our BitForce platform development and we've been pulled forward by that conversation ever since.

Someone who releases a Lean Startup style Minimum Viable Product (MVP), may be indistinguishable from a scammer.  There is a risk that BFL may not deliver products as promised.  The difference between them and a scammer is that we would hope they offer refunds instead of disappearing with customer funds.  They have said as much here ... I hope we can trust them ...

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legolouman
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December 05, 2011, 10:31:22 PM
 #76

we didn't start this thread or announce ourselves at all...We were discovered in mid development by a few in the bitcoin community...we put up a pre-order page to keep it orderly...gmax heard about our project and posted...we hadn't expected to enter the market at the time our project was discovered.

You launched a website showcasing your product and you're surprised that it got found out? Before gmax, how did the "few in the bitcoin community" find out about your product? Did you expect them to be quite about it?


BFL, can you address this post please? Thanks.

Sorry..   thought it was a rhetorical question.  I don't think there's anything remarkable about building a website prior to expected product release.  The response on the other hand was sort of like stepping on a bear trap and caught us completely off guard.  We're not bitcoiners...   well, we weren't bitcoiners anyway.  One of our team had a friend in the bitcoin community who seemed pretty interested in our BitForce platform development and we've been pulled forward by that conversation ever since.

If you (BFL) weren't a bunch of bitcoiners, why did you create a product line, specifically for mining, with no other projects listed? That in itself is fishy. If I didn't like or know about computers, would I start a computer store?

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December 05, 2011, 10:33:35 PM
 #77


  Any updates on how the troubleshooting is going?  Looking forward to some more testing.


   Cheers

If you're not excited by the idea of being an early adopter 'now', then you should come back in three or four years and either tell us "Told you it'd never work!" or join what should, by then, be a much more stable and easier-to-use system. - GA
It is being worked on by smart people. -DamienBlack
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December 05, 2011, 10:41:31 PM
 #78

we didn't start this thread or announce ourselves at all...We were discovered in mid development by a few in the bitcoin community...we put up a pre-order page to keep it orderly...gmax heard about our project and posted...we hadn't expected to enter the market at the time our project was discovered.
Sorry..   thought it was a rhetorical question.  I don't think there's anything remarkable about building a website prior to expected product release.  The response on the other hand was sort of like stepping on a bear trap and caught us completely off guard.  We're not bitcoiners...   well, we weren't bitcoiners anyway.  One of our team had a friend in the bitcoin community who seemed pretty interested in our BitForce platform development and we've been pulled forward by that conversation ever since.

If you (BFL) weren't a bunch of bitcoiners, why did you create a product line, specifically for mining, with no other projects listed? That in itself is fishy. If I didn't like or know about computers, would I start a computer store?

Here, I highlighted the relevant bits for you.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
legolouman
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December 05, 2011, 10:44:40 PM
 #79

we didn't start this thread or announce ourselves at all...We were discovered in mid development by a few in the bitcoin community...we put up a pre-order page to keep it orderly...gmax heard about our project and posted...we hadn't expected to enter the market at the time our project was discovered.
Sorry..   thought it was a rhetorical question.  I don't think there's anything remarkable about building a website prior to expected product release.  The response on the other hand was sort of like stepping on a bear trap and caught us completely off guard.  We're not bitcoiners...   well, we weren't bitcoiners anyway.  One of our team had a friend in the bitcoin community who seemed pretty interested in our BitForce platform development and we've been pulled forward by that conversation ever since.

If you (BFL) weren't a bunch of bitcoiners, why did you create a product line, specifically for mining, with no other projects listed? That in itself is fishy. If I didn't like or know about computers, would I start a computer store?

Here, I highlighted the relevant bits for you.

I understand that, but a whole line? How much time, money, and such would be invested into that. Not only that, but it seems to be the only type of product on the products page. Compare to:
Friend says, "boy Trucks are cool!"
Small business says, "I've never heard of this 'truck' but I'm going to gear my business only to this 'truck'!"

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rjk
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December 05, 2011, 10:47:34 PM
 #80

I understand that, but a whole line? How much time, money, and such would be invested into that. Not only that, but it seems to be the only type of product on the products page. Compare to:
Friend says, "boy Trucks are cool!"
Small business says, "I've never heard of this 'truck' but I'm going to gear my business only to this 'truck'!"

I think it is more of a proof of concept, to show the "big customers" what's possible.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
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