Bitcointalk Charity and its funds

[NotATether]

Just a follow up to my rating on cabalism13 I wrote:

While I do feel that the charity auditing is quite in shambles (and I do not recommend these guys to continue running it without at least a logging their work in a spreadsheet with transactions in it), I don't feel like cabalism13 is really out to scam us.

True, money was sent out to them that was used for personal expenses, but I don't think he's simply going to run away with the charity money and disappear from the forum. In his case it would be illogical to do that since he has a bunch of business connections here (that have nothing to do with the charity).

But if anyone who donated to him wants a refund, I think he should definitely honor that and issue refunds to those donors.

[AB de Royse777]

But if anyone who donated to him wants a refund, I think he should definitely honor that and issue refunds to those donors.

If he needed to borrow money from lenders, if he needed to use the fund from charity to spend on his relative's treatment then do you think he has financial solvency to return even a one 10th of a bitcoin right now?

We are talking about 2+ bitcoin that was mishandled and I think this is a lot of money for them (in the country they are in) to do nothing but spend time on a beautiful beach for the next 5 years. Then after 5 years take an assignment of building few bitcointalk accounts and give 2 years effort before making another successful scam.

[crwth]

Sorry, it took quite a long time to post again here. Really had a hard time IRL because I got sick and needed to be isolated from my family and work. If you noticed, my posting rates are down because of this and what I’m going through personally, and I do hope you guys understand that to be part of a signature campaign like this is important to me because it helps with my personal expenses.

I know this shouldn’t be an excuse, but this is really what happened and it’s my fault for not posting and updating for a while and I hope that I’m making it up to you guys by posting here.

If you guys are interested in my tests, here it is. I could send the result if you are interested. Thankfully it’s now negative, good for the holidays.



Back to the main point

Here is a link for my expenses.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PupnusqpO1FJIWPztyX0SfdGYcCubIbF94e3jldW3Fo/edit?usp=sharing

This is a copy of the spreadsheet that was posted, and I just copied my part on it.
It’s going to be quite different from what is previously posted because I haven’t seen the receipt back then and I had to search the internet first for the prices of the items I included in the package.

The balance that I received and converted to PHP



For the receipts, I did manage to recover some. The thermal paper in supermarkets always has this tendency to fade right away.


You can see the breakdown in the spreadsheet.


You know, I was really trying to help because my intention for this is good and to be tied up and accused of different stuff feels so demotivating. It just made it feel even sadder and harder to defend if all they see is the negative ones and not praise the ones that have been done already.

You know the sad thing about this is that once you thought of somebody not logging in, it’s already a burned account or something but that’s not always the case. Thank you to those who have posted good stuff first and try to understand at first why it’s happening. It’s really what makes the community amazing, TBH.

I do hope to continue this and possibly with better guidance at the helm to prevent this situation again. Together as a community, we aim to be better and help a lot more people in the future.

Happy holidays to everyone.

[Poker Player]

-snip

Hello

I will analyze the images later or tomorrow.

I think many of us in the thread expected something like this from you and the others but it's been a while.

You sound honest but we will have to analyze what you are showing us.

[Coin_trader]

-

This is my first time to see this issue. But since I trust you guys. I suggest that you should provide the screenshot of actual spending receipt on the spreadsheet and also the value in fiat of Bitcoin by the time you convert and used it to purchased items needed for donations. Just indicate the miscellaneous and other extra things that you purchased so that the value will tally and everyone will have a peace of mind.

People just want see that spending will be equal to the total donation. I know that you need to use some money for miscellaneous like transpo, your labor fee and other expenses. Just be honest and declared all the expenses. You can do this.

[Timelord2067]

Image quoted for future reference.

https://ninjastic.space/post/58816120

So you had a "PCR" test which is just another name for a "Covid test" that literally millions of people globally are taking each and every week.  According to the form, "the patient" requested it, not "a Doctor".

Is that it?  

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diagnostics/21462-covid-19-and-pcr-testing

OR

You had an RT-PCR test https://www.emedicinehealth.com/pcr_polymerase_chain_reaction_test/article_em.htm (nearly the same thing)...

[crwth]

I think many of us in the thread expected something like this from you and the others but it's been a while.

I appreciate all your efforts in understanding and that's why I put the first part of what happened with me on to why I wasn't able to.

So you had a "PCR" test which is just another name for a "Covid test" that literally millions of people globally are taking each and every week.  According to the form, "the patient" requested it, not "a Doctor".

Good for those who get tested every time. I got tested because I got symptoms of suspected covid. Having fever, diarrhea, body pains is not a joke. This is to verify if you have covid, I consulted a doctor first and it was recommended as well, if you want to see the medical prescription, PM me. That's not the main point of the thread though.

[Pffrt]

Sorry if this is true but what this has to do with the proof you were supposed to post here? The image is dated on 23rd December while this thread has been posted on 11th December. By the way, such images can be easily made up, faked or what's not?
You have provided some receipts, do they really prove anything? I really don't think so.

[suchmoon]

It's quite funny (in a cringe-inducing kind of way, I'm not trying to make light of this situation) how this compares to another incident recently where someone was accused of things and said "I was sick" and some people were outraged how the poor sick person was treated.

I've been sitting on the fence here (very uncomfortable) and honestly can't figure out what crwth is accused of. There were pictures provided of activities that seemed legit. I don't think the original thread promised detailed receipts.

That's not to say there isn't an issue with funds, or that there isn't a communication problem, but it looks to me like there also was a failure to convey expectations to the organizers of this charity, either in advance or at least after those big donations were given. It's seems a bit disingenuous to demand receipts a year later.

IOTW it was possible (at last for crwth; not sure about the other two people involved) to be completely honest and follow the letter and the spirit of the charity thread and end up with a red tag/flag for it because he didn't do something that wasn't part of the deal. I think that's messed up. I will oppose the flag until and unless actual proof of misconduct is provided.

[crwth]

Sorry if this is true but what this has to do with the proof you were supposed to post here?

The reason why I haven't been posting too much. If you were having symptoms, you need to at least isolate yourself for a couple of weeks, 14 days to be exact here. So of course my actions were limited and had to be verified again if I have covid etc.

The image is dated on 23rd December while this thread has been posted on 11th December. By the way, such images can be easily made up, faked or what's not?

TBH, this is not really the point of the post though. Why are you focusing on this?

You have provided some receipts, do they really prove anything? I really don't think so.

What else do you suggest?

I've been sitting on the fence here (very uncomfortable) and honestly can't figure out what crwth is accused of. There were pictures provided of activities that seemed legit. I don't think the original thread promised detailed receipts.

I believe this is where the charity should be improved upon if it were to continue.

[tranthidung]

Previously, I told about it there

I opposed all three flags but as said, I thought something bad were done by three guys but to say they scam, I don't think so. I want to say a few more things and honestly, I don't involve in this charity and their activities.

• I forgot to mention that months ago, not sure when (it is too long already), cabalism13 asked me that whether I can help him to do charity activities in Vietnam. I said No, because of few reasons:
  
  • I don't have time to manage such operations
  • It's pandemic and I have elderly in my family so that I can not put them under risk if I hang out for charity and bring the virus back to infect them. It's not right
  • Running a charity requires lot of things, I know that because I have joined many of charity activities. Because I do neither have time for lots of steps in a whole procedure, I only donate money to charity, to people I trust if I want to help
  • This invitation of cabalism13 probably was sent around the same period when he sent BTC to Croatia and malboroza, I knew it. However, honestly I did not know his charity received 1 BTC from a very generous donator
• About issues in this charity, something are bad in operations and should be managed better.
• However, it already happened. I don't think it is good to ask for all receipts for purchases months or 2 years ago. I myself, never keep such things for too long. Of course, some leftovers can be found that are what you can expect from this charity.
• As charity operators, they should imagine of such things, have skills and plans for good management. Anyway, it already happened and it is unfair to say they are scam only because they did not keep receipts, etc.
• I don't expect such transparent things when I donate my money to charity. I donate to many sources and not only to this charity, just told you so. I am not rich but it is what I did and please don't ask me to show you proof of my donations
• Not only for this charity team, but for other teams want to run such things: this is a good lesson, do things transparently, spreadsheets for all activities, expenses, receipts, reports with signature between charity and receivers, etc. Such things help to make charity actually better and you will be free from accusation. If you feel that you can not do so (example you are careless guys), don't operate any charity from donated fund. If you want to do charity, use your own money. It's best for all!

A bit off-topic

In my nation, about 4 months ago, a same drama happened which (in my opinion) was triggered by someone related to government. Then people ask about receipts, invoices, audits, etc. I know there are good and bad charity operators but that drama put all charity operators under pressure, and wasted their time for reports to the community. Even those activities happened 2 or 3 years ago.

It is crowd or herd effects, I meant.

Consequently, locals have less intention to do charity now. It's bad for disadvantaged people but looks good for governmental-backed foundations. I don't like it, frankly.

[yahoo62278]

It's quite funny (in a cringe-inducing kind of way, I'm not trying to make light of this situation) how this compares to another incident recently where someone was accused of things and said "I was sick" and some people were outraged how the poor sick person was treated.

I've been sitting on the fence here (very uncomfortable) and honestly can't figure out what crwth is accused of. There were pictures provided of activities that seemed legit. I don't think the original thread promised detailed receipts.

That's not to say there isn't an issue with funds, or that there isn't a communication problem, but it looks to me like there also was a failure to convey expectations to the organizers of this charity, either in advance or at least after those big donations were given. It's seems a bit disingenuous to demand receipts a year later.

IOTW it was possible (at last for crwth; not sure about the other two people involved) to be completely honest and follow the letter and the spirit of the charity thread and end up with a red tag/flag for it because he didn't do something that wasn't part of the deal. I think that's messed up. I will oppose the flag until and unless actual proof of misconduct is provided.

All of them posted pictures of whatever event they were a part of up until June of this year. Then everything stopped. I said in the beginning I believe they were doing good for their communities, but there was a definite breach of contract.

This fund raising program will be conducting such activities like feeding program, helping the orphans and other possible donations.

Funds will be hold by an escrow (bl4nkcode), and for every donations TXID will also be posted here to let the public keep in touch.


Updates, Activities, Images will be posted here as soon as we have conducted such activities.

Just because cabalism13 posted the thread, he is the only 1 being held responsible in alot of peoples minds, but in fact all 3 involved agreed to these terms so all 3 are guilty IMO.

I cannot say for sure that any 1 of the 3 stole a single penny. That is reflected in my trust given to all 3. I have not called any of them thieves. What prompted me to give a negative was the lack of response, lack of even logging in, and the response given when they did log in. The community 100% deserved a warning to be seen before they decided to donate another cent. The charity needs/needed an official book keeper so as to show where every cent was going. They failed to show all of that to this point. Flags and tags can be changed, I have no issue with anyone withdrawing support or opposing. Crwth contacted me last night, so I knew he was going to post today and I also told him his rep was salvageable. The other 2 I wasn't so sure of due to their actions to this point, but they may just be away for the holidays who knows.

I agree it will be nearly impossible to get receipts from the beginning, but I would say that they could see what all was donated and get a price for all those items then add it all together and show on the spreadsheet to get some sort of quote for the money that was spent.

Moving forward, if they are to continue and all tags removed(idk if this will happen), they will need to show all transactions and utilize the escrow(bl4nkcode or anyone else willing). There should never be money not protected.

[RapTarX]

@crwth, Didn't you know what's going on with the charity fund, escrow contract wasn't in its way & if any corruption on going? Did you know anything? If yes, why didn't you alert the community about it? Don't you think you should share with the community about things that are not going accordingly? It's great that you have provided some documents which are real; to me it's real.

[LoyceV]

I've been sitting on the fence here (very uncomfortable) and honestly can't figure out what crwth is accused of.

I haven't ruled out the possibility that he could be collateral damage. I'll take a thorough look at the spreadsheet and images he posted tomorrow.

it was possible (~) to be completely honest and follow the letter and the spirit of the charity thread and end up with a red tag/flag for it because he didn't do something that wasn't part of the deal. I think that's messed up.

I still have mixed feelings about it, it's at least very naive not to keep accurate records.

[dkbit98]

I have tagged and supported flags against all 3 at this point.

Well you suggested this few days ago so I am not surprised, but I think it's a bit harsh and especially doing this during holiday season.
I don't know if it was so hard for you to wait few more days after new year.

I've been sitting on the fence here (very uncomfortable) and honestly can't figure out what crwth is accused of. There were pictures provided of activities that seemed legit. I don't think the original thread promised detailed receipts.

I agree with you, they never promised to present any records for transactions, and I will repeat again... we had much worse situation with official bitcointalk forum donations and new forum software that never happened.
I don't think that anyone was tagged or received negative feedback for that.
Are we asking for theymos and moderators to show us records how they spent donations?

IOTW it was possible (at last for crwth; not sure about the other two people involved) to be completely honest and follow the letter and the spirit of the charity thread and end up with a red tag/flag for it because he didn't do something that wasn't part of the deal. I think that's messed up. I will oppose the flag until and unless actual proof of misconduct is provided.

We can all agree they handled situation bad and this would go unnoticed if yahoo didn't report this, that makes me speculate that maybe he donated or know someone who donated to this charity.
I know we are all suspicious to any posts, but I am trying to keep open mind, and I believe crwth in this case when he sad that he was sick, he even presented some receipts.
I am not going to support that flags.

[Timelord2067]

So you had a "PCR" test which is just another name for a "Covid test" that literally millions of people globally are taking each and every week.  According to the form, "the patient" requested it, not "a Doctor".

Good for those who get tested every time. I got tested because I got symptoms of suspected covid. Having fever, diarrhea, body pains is not a joke. This is to verify if you have covid, I consulted a doctor first and it was recommended as well, if you want to see the medical prescription, PM me. That's not the main point of the thread though.

You made it the point of the thread when you posted it as your response in this thread.  

As others have pointed out:

Sorry if this is true but what this has to do with the proof you were supposed to post here? The image is dated on 23rd December while this thread has been posted on 11th December. By the way, such images can be easily made up, faked or what's not?
You have provided some receipts, do they really prove anything? I really don't think so.

Time for some tough questions:

• Where's the money?
• Who's idea was it to first dip into the funds for personal needs?  And, as a follow-up: How long then did it take to become "normal" to use the funds for non charitable payments?
• How many people do you owe money to?  (And how much do you owe)??

[The Sceptical Chymist]

You know, I was really trying to help because my intention for this is good and to be tied up and accused of different stuff feels so demotivating. It just made it feel even sadder and harder to defend if all they see is the negative ones and not praise the ones that have been done already.

As they say, it can take years to build a stellar reputation but only seconds to ruin it.  There have been many people throughout history who've done a lot of charity work and other good works for people only to have it sullied by a scandal.  Bernie Madoff is the first example that comes to mind, but I could probably list a dozen others if I thought about it for a few minutes.  

In addition, good intentions count for little if the accompanying behavior isn't good--the road to hell is paved with them, to use another old saying.  So you shouldn't be surprised that this charity, the members behind it, and how the funds donated were spent are all being scrutinized with critical eyes.  You've been a member of the forum long enough that you should know that reputations are destroyed in an instant and it doesn't matter what a person's history was.  Ultimately this is the internet and more importantly this is bitcoin.  It's very easy to scam with due to its pseudo-anonymous nature, and the whole bitcoin space is full of scammers and always has been.

You know the sad thing about this is that once you thought of somebody not logging in, it’s already a burned account or something but that’s not always the case.

Again with your feelings, just like cabalism13.  I don't know about anyone else, but the feelings of the three of you are irrelevant.  The receipts and how the money was spent are.  And again, you've been a member of bitcointalk long enough that you ought to know how members tend to think when it comes to someone not replying to a scam accusation while still being active on the forum.

Well you suggested this few days ago so I am not surprised, but I think it's a bit harsh and especially doing this during holiday season.
I don't know if it was so hard for you to wait few more days after new year.

What does the holiday season have to do with any of this?  Should anyone care more about the emotional feelings of three members who are being questioned by the community about some very serious matters?  And on top of that, there's been ample time for all of them to respond in this thread.  

I supported both flags thus far.

we had much worse situation with official bitcointalk forum donations and new forum software that never happened.
I don't think that anyone was tagged or received negative feedback for that.

That's a case of "whataboutism" if I ever saw one, and those examples have nothing to do with this thread.  I hate to say this (and I'm not attacking you, but your argument), but you're being far too lenient on these three members and perhaps a bit naive as well.

[AB de Royse777]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PupnusqpO1FJIWPztyX0SfdGYcCubIbF94e3jldW3Fo/edit?usp=sharing

All were looking good until the point marked 1.

After that things were mess except only two:

• Row 52, crwth had references of the activities he has done. After looking at the images and I feel there are nothing to doubt.
• Row 56, cabalism13 sent for marlboroza and it's clearly documented.

There are 7 outgoing txes for cabalism13 and only 1 was documented. The total amount for undocumented txes were: 0.54722358 BTC (I have no idea how much they were in USD).

2 outgoing txes for bL4nkcode and total was: 0.56639445 BTC

There are no trace of spending or using the fund so far for the total of 0.54722358 + 0.56639445 = 1.11361803 BTC from these two. There are no effort from these two as well to give satisfactory answers too.

After the 2nd 1 BTC donation it seems big portions were gone to cabalism13 and bL4nkcode. crwth was given a small part it (0.09970577) to cover the activities he has done.

I am giving crwth my benefit of the doubt. At least he gave enough effort to keep things clean. But for bL4nkcode and cabalism13, I stay in my decision unless they present something that will be somehow acceptable.

[Timelord2067]

For the receipts, I did manage to recover some. The thermal paper in supermarkets always has this tendency to fade right away.

Okay, let's look at it this way:  (these receipts aren't on the spreadsheet posted just above BTW)

Three scrunched up receipts from eleven months ago.  Two are hand written with no contact details and a vague letter "C" as if that's supposed to explain all.

Then receipt 0367 in image three has the wording: This document is not valid for claim of input taxes."

Did it occur to you on reading (the tax disclaimer) that you might run into difficulties later on down the track if there were an audit of your expenditure?


@LoyceV - was it really necessary to give this person four merits for a Covid test receipt and three vague hand written receipts (one of which is for *bags*?) from eleven months ago. ?

[dkbit98]

That's a case of "whataboutism" if I ever saw one, and those examples have nothing to do with this thread.  I hate to say this (and I'm not attacking you, but your argument), but you're being far too lenient on these three members and perhaps a bit naive as well.

I never heard of a case with forum donation similar like this, so I can't compare it with anything better...some people even sent donations to Bruno AKA Phinnaeus Gage, or someone who claimed it was him, but they did it with their own free will.
Nobody forced people to DONATE, they never promised to have detailed reports whatsoever, and nobody asked them to provide any evidence until now.
I honestly don't think they should be crucified for this, I am not defending them but I have the right on my own opinion to not go with the herd, and I don't think that I am naive for thinking like this.
I certainly don't agree that all 3 of them should be treated equally here, and I just wanted to give them some more time for defending.