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Author Topic: 2023 Diff thread now opened.  (Read 8079 times)
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mikeywith
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March 13, 2023, 10:17:57 PM
 #141

over all the years I mined top end gear at six cents has been the bottom out number.

So we are not there yet.

4.9 cents a th does the trick.

It makes s17pro and m20s losers

or all s17 pro must clock to 40th

Ya at 6 cents now any gear that is 42w/th or better still makes some profit, also the good thing is BTC went up 25% from yesterday's low of 19.5k, trading now at 24.5k, so not as bad as when we have started this diff epoch, it's almost as good as the previous epoch, so for sure, some miners will go offline (8> cents mining with 45w/th gears and worse are sure thing to shut down or be forced to underclock their gears), new gears are of course still coming online tho, so it's going to be a wild epoch.

Well it's below 14% now, but as usual, taking any notice of it early on is as pointless as trusting what that site says Smiley
As I said many times before I don't care that much about their prediction at the end of the period, I'm watching the blocks getting mined and when you constantly have an increase in those although it doesn't mean for sure the period will end like this, every single day makes the opposite less and less likely.

I think Kano is confusing the "pace" we all look with the "Next Difficulty Change" which usually is off by a lot, the pace shows how fast/slow blocks are being mined, it's 100% accurate based on how many blocks have been found vs the expected number of blocks at a 10 mins intervals.

Right now, it says


Quote
Current Pace:   112.1541%  (486 / 433.33 expected, 52.67 ahead)

The quote is simply on-chain data translated to a language that the average joe can understand, the first block of this epoch was 780192 it was mined 72 hours and 12 mins ago IF luck was 100% and no hashrate was added/taken out, that would have been enough time to find only 433 so the current block we should be working on would be 780626, but right now we are working on block 780678, so we found 12% more blocks, pretty accurate, whether sustainable or not is the question, also, how likely is it to find 12% blocks in 433 blocks on a scale of probability?






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March 14, 2023, 12:05:49 AM
Merited by mikeywith (2)
 #142

Right now, it says

Quote
Current Pace:   112.1541%  (486 / 433.33 expected, 52.67 ahead)

The quote is simply on-chain data translated to a language that the average joe can understand, the first block of this epoch was 780192 it was mined 72 hours and 12 mins ago IF luck was 100% and no hashrate was added/taken out, that would have been enough time to find only 433 so the current block we should be working on would be 780626, but right now we are working on block 780678, so we found 12% more blocks, pretty accurate, whether sustainable or not is the question, also, how likely is it to find 12% blocks in 433 blocks on a scale of probability?
Yes the pace is the result of that pure random variance.
Alas they use that to make way out of the ball park predictions Smiley

Anyway, to find 433 blocks at 112% rate = 433 with a mean of 1/1.12 = 0.892857 (assuming the whole 12% is just variance)
gsl_cdf_gamma_P(433,433,1.12)=0.0107713
i.e. 1 in 92.8 chance of being 112% or more i.e. of the whole extra 12% just being purely variance and not extra hash rate.
Of course some almost certainly is extra hash rate, but how much? We'll see an estimate at the end of the diff change.

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March 14, 2023, 12:13:14 AM
 #143

Right now, it says

Quote
Current Pace:   112.1541%  (486 / 433.33 expected, 52.67 ahead)

The quote is simply on-chain data translated to a language that the average joe can understand, the first block of this epoch was 780192 it was mined 72 hours and 12 mins ago IF luck was 100% and no hashrate was added/taken out, that would have been enough time to find only 433 so the current block we should be working on would be 780626, but right now we are working on block 780678, so we found 12% more blocks, pretty accurate, whether sustainable or not is the question, also, how likely is it to find 12% blocks in 433 blocks on a scale of probability?
Yes the pace is the result of that pure random variance.
Alas they use that to make way out of the ball park predictions Smiley

Anyway, to find 433 blocks at 112% rate = 433 with a mean of 1/1.12 = 0.892857 (assuming the whole 12% is just variance)
gsl_cdf_gamma_P(433,433,1.12)=0.0107713
i.e. 1 in 92.8 chance of being 112% or more i.e. of the whole extra 12% just being purely variance and not extra hash rate.
Of course some almost certainly is extra hash rate, but how much? We'll see an estimate at the end of the diff change.

Exactly that, but if we finish at +12%

we will have done 14 + 1 + 12 which is close to 80eh to 85eh or  850,000 s19 pro j's in 6 weeks

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March 14, 2023, 02:27:20 AM
 #144

Exactly that, but if we finish at +12%

we will have done 14 + 1 + 12 which is close to 80eh to 85eh or  850,000 s19 pro j's in 6 weeks

Would be very interesting if the second half of the epoch falls back to nearly 100% hashrate and give us a final increase of 6% or so, many people believe that some large players are doing what's called "hashrate manipulation" although I wouldn't call them that even if they were real, but someone with tons of gears (both BTC and Alts) with limited power rate could be taking this approach, hammer BTC in the one half of the epoch, turn off, move to Alts for the next one.

while it's extremely difficult to find any economical logic behind this, (if alts are more profitable, just mine them and vice versa), also, what is more, an important 6% diff increase of you shut down all the gears that add up the other 6% which are making you millions in profit, and how do you know others will stick to your game and they won't raise diff by say 3% and you would have lost some good money, the numbers don't add for me, something is missing in that theory, but if it keeps repeating, I would be more interesting in dipping into that theory.

Meanwhile, looks like BTC is headed to 30k. Cheesy, currently it's 0.069$/th, a lot better than it was 2 days ago, at 30k and current diff it's 0.086$ (pretty amazing), at 30k and 12% diff increase it's  0.077$ (still good), at current prices and 12% diff it's 0.062$ not so bad, at today's ago's prices and 12% it's 0.049$ (terrible).

So 0.086$ is an upper bound, and  0.049$ the lower bound, none of the above scenarios can be excluded, all are realistic, and we all know BTC can be at any one of them in 10 days, we could all be happy for a whole epoch making 0.086$ or feeling terrible making  0.049$ with nobody to bail us out. Cheesy

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March 14, 2023, 03:12:40 PM
 #145

 viabtc has us at  7.7 cents a th

this number for a 3000 watt s19 pro means

$7.70 earned pre power a day

round to 75 kwatts a day

11 cents cost $8.25 lose 55 cents

10 cents cost $7.50 make   20 cents
09 cents cost $6.75 make   95 cents
08 cents cost $6.00 make  $1.70
07 cents cost $5.25 make  $2.45
06 cents cost $4.50 make  $3.20
05 cents cost $3.75 make  $3.95
04 cents cost $3.00 make  $4.70
03 cents cost $2.25 make  $5.45

We are at a very interesting spot.

Coins rally the rest of the period we crest to 30K
Coins tank we drop to 18k

with or or anywhere in-between could be true

diff is brutal right at and around 12%


Quote
https://www.bitrawr.com/difficulty-estimator


Latest Block:   780792  (4 minutes ago)

Current Pace:   111.8988%  (601 / 537.09 expected, 63.91 ahead)

Previous Difficulty:   43053844193928.45                            
Current Difficulty:   43551722213590.37                            
Next Difficulty:   between 46053487718885 and 48773977705509
Next Difficulty Change:   between +5.7444% and +11.9909%
Previous Retarget:   last Friday at 4:43 PM  (+1.1564%)
Next Retarget (earliest):   March 23, 2023 at 6:00 AM  (in 8d 18h 45m 21s)
Next Retarget (latest):   March 23, 2023 at 11:36 PM  (in 9d 12h 21m 26s)
Projected Epoch Length:   between 12d 12h 16m 16s and 13d 5h 52m 21s
Copy stats to clipboard

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March 14, 2023, 04:18:43 PM
 #146

imagine flicking the on switch to 1000000 s19's at will!!!  Grin
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March 14, 2023, 05:38:30 PM
 #147

Latest Block:   780792  (4 minutes ago)
Current Pace:   111.8988%  (601 / 537.09 expected, 63.91 ahead)

So finally backtracking a bit and as the math of probabilities starts tempering it down, I don't think any miner could be shutting down now that he has 20% more revenue. Still going up compared to the previous diff, 46,58, 63 blocks ahead but the rhythm of the growth might finally take a break.

Now, the funny question is, how much gear was offline at 6 cents/th, it's still sitting in the same warehouse ready to be deployed, and is profitable at ~9 cents/th? The s17 only needs 9 cents per kWh to start being profitable again at those levels, if the price keeps going up, are we going to see the biggest bump in terms of exahash (not %) ever?

imagine flicking the on switch to 1000000 s19's at will!!!  Grin

And turning NYC into Pyongyang at night  Grin


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March 14, 2023, 07:51:17 PM
 #148

Latest Block:   780792  (4 minutes ago)
Current Pace:   111.8988%  (601 / 537.09 expected, 63.91 ahead)

So finally backtracking a bit and as the math of probabilities starts tempering it down, I don't think any miner could be shutting down now that he has 20% more revenue. Still going up compared to the previous diff, 46,58, 63 blocks ahead but the rhythm of the growth might finally take a break.

Now, the funny question is, how much gear was offline at 6 cents/th, it's still sitting in the same warehouse ready to be deployed, and is profitable at ~9 cents/th? The s17 only needs 9 cents per kWh to start being profitable again at those levels, if the price keeps going up, are we going to see the biggest bump in terms of exahash (not %) ever?

imagine flicking the on switch to 1000000 s19's at will!!!  Grin

And turning NYC into Pyongyang at night  Grin



Yes the diff can go to 60 with ease.

The power is available.

Look what I do right now on a small scale.

I had 10gh in gpus for eth pulling 35kwatts

I am slowly selling it on ebay.

When I sell 1500 worth I buy an s19 and put it on line.

Right now on ebay there are over 10,000 gpus on sale and about 1000 a day sell.

Many are mining  guys shift to asics to mine.

When eth was at its peak it was burning 80% the power btc was.

more than ⅔ of that gear is not mining this means lots of power for s19's is available.

If we go to 35k boom diff will jump 15% in 2 jumps easy peasy

so 14+2+12+7+8 = very possible

the first three happened already

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March 16, 2023, 04:10:08 AM
 #149

Many are mining  guys shift to asics to mine.
When eth was at its peak it was burning 80% the power btc was.
more than ⅔ of that gear is not mining this means lots of power for s19's is available.

Not going to dig deeper in the GPU mining stuff but a lot of those miners were indeed a hobby home-based operation, doing it with a few cards, a lot of them spread all over the world, yeah some would be burning more than 10KW needed for 3 Asics, some were piling tens of 8 racks GPUs, but smaller settings were easier to cool not so noisy, they will not go for ASICs on the same level. And there are many other things, like the ability to sell that video card at any time, and many more, a lot of them were mining and still making profits at electricity prices that would not be viable for BTC, in GPU it was the initial investment that was a killer, not the operating costs.

That aside, an eventful week, Bitcoin breaking 25k but settling below right now, Chipmxier seized, banks bailed, oil crashed below $68, the euro is sliding against the USD, just lol on this one, and back ti mining the pace is slowing down, like really slowing down.

Current Pace:   111.8988%  (601 / 537.09 expected, 63.91 ahead)

So now on the 16th:

Quote
Current Pace:   107.8508%  (818 / 758.45 expected, 59.55 ahead)

lost 4 blocks. We might not have a record difficulty adjustment at all.

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March 16, 2023, 05:30:41 PM
 #150

Quote
https://www.bitrawr.com/difficulty-estimator


Latest Block:   781079  (3 minutes ago)
Current Pace:   105.8976%  (888 / 838.55 expected, 49.45 ahead)
Previous Difficulty:   43053844193928.45                            
Current Difficulty:   43551722213590.37                            
Next Difficulty:   between 45300222308796 and 46144534959486
Next Difficulty Change:   between +4.0148% and +5.9534%
Previous Retarget:   last Friday at 4:43 PM  (+1.1564%)
Next Retarget (earliest):   March 23, 2023 at 11:01 PM  (in 7d 9h 31m 47s)
Next Retarget (latest):   March 24, 2023 at 4:52 AM  (in 7d 15h 23m 17s)
Projected Epoch Length:   between 13d 5h 17m 15s and 13d 11h 8m 45s
Copy stats to clipboard


dropped a lot of blocks we did 70 and should have made 80

interesting drop for sure.

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March 17, 2023, 01:52:37 PM
 #151

Quote
https://www.bitrawr.com/difficulty-estimator


Latest Block:   781079  (3 minutes ago)
Current Pace:   105.8976%  (888 / 838.55 expected, 49.45 ahead)


dropped a lot of blocks we did 70 and should have made 80

interesting drop for sure.

I would be watching the next epoch to check for similar pattern, this seems to have been repeating recently, strong start, then what looks like a systematic slow down.

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kano
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March 17, 2023, 09:05:18 PM
 #152

Be wary of trying to find patterns in random variables ...

Of course they aren't completely random, hash rate changes affects the average block time, but people turning off 10% of the world hash rate, while the price has gone up about 30% since the start of this diff change seems a rather wild guess as what is happening Smiley

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March 17, 2023, 09:51:38 PM
Merited by mikeywith (4)
 #153

My take on it is that to moderate the diff rise at least 1 mega farm is kicking into high gear right after a diff change, runs there for maybe 1/2 epoch and then throttles back a bit for the other 1/2 so diff does not get too high too fast?

If someone is so inclined it'd be interesting to see a few 'what if's' based on that premise.  Wink

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March 18, 2023, 09:48:13 AM
 #154

What if we earn half as much this diff change coz that would be great to help all the other miners in the world ... ... ... not happening.

The long term result for that miner is total less income than not doing it.

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March 18, 2023, 02:38:50 PM
Merited by mikeywith (4)
 #155

What if we earn half as much this diff change coz that would be great to help all the other miners in the world ... ... ... not happening.

The long term result for that miner is total less income than not doing it.

Only if he does not have other gear to point at.

Simple example

1 s19pro 100 th 3100 watts  earns $7.50 for 3100 watts

4 L3+ 2gh 3100 watts earns $7.50 in btc pointed at nicehash.

Now small example above but I am convinced gear swapping  happens.

My Argument is a one megawatt farm of older cheap gear that he swaps considering btc per watt.

Old s17 and old L3+ you got them cheap and flipflop them based on earning per watt.

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March 18, 2023, 03:07:49 PM
Merited by philipma1957 (9)
 #156

but people turning off 10% of the world hash rate, while the price has gone up about 30% since the start of this diff change seems a rather wild guess as what is happening Smiley

This what I always thought, on the other hand, some people claim that this could be the case, something like what NFW mentioned and phill further explained it, and this patterns seem to be consistently repeating which is why I became interested in them, of course, we can always assume that it is just luck making average block time shorter in the first half/third of the epoch, but if it keeps happening on every epoch, the luck theory starts to lose it's weight against the former.

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March 18, 2023, 10:50:33 PM
Merited by mikeywith (2)
 #157

but people turning off 10% of the world hash rate, while the price has gone up about 30% since the start of this diff change seems a rather wild guess as what is happening Smiley

This what I always thought, on the other hand, some people claim that this could be the case, something like what NFW mentioned and phill further explained it, and this patterns seem to be consistently repeating which is why I became interested in them, of course, we can always assume that it is just luck making average block time shorter in the first half/third of the epoch, but if it keeps happening on every epoch, the luck theory starts to lose it's weight against the former.

 Look it has to be to some degree.

I am 300 kwatts  of really good power deal.

and maybe another 500 kwatts of good power deal.

I know I want to be able to play with the 300 kwatts I am creating this ability as I buy gear.

My goal is to be able to flip-flop scrypt with sha 256 at will.


The 500 kwatt done the road build I will deal with when I get there.

I can't bet the only person creating this easy peasy arbitrage idea.

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March 20, 2023, 11:40:08 PM
 #158

Yeah but even only 1% of the btc hash rate is 3.11EH

So assuming 100TH/s miners at 3.3kW
That's 31100 miners and 103MW per each 1% ...

Needs a lot of farms with a LOT of scam coin miners, going after scam coins with a lot of hash rate.

It certainly isn't sha256d moving to another coin, since it only takes 1% of btc to beat the other coins total hash rate.

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March 21, 2023, 12:29:18 AM
 #159

Quote
It certainly isn't sha256d moving to another coin, since it only takes 1% of btc to beat the other coins total hash rate.
Good point. That amount of hash pounding them would make for one helluva spike but - as long as it does not last too long to avoid sending their diff skyrocketing a farm could 'corner the market' so to speak on mining rewards from said coins for a week or so no?

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March 21, 2023, 01:53:10 AM
Merited by NotFuzzyWarm (2)
 #160

but - as long as it does not last too long to avoid sending their diff skyrocketing a farm could 'corner the market' so to speak on mining rewards from said coins for a week or so no?

It is a possible scenario, but as Kano mentioned, it should have a little impact, what some people seem to suggest is that miners will shutdown to keep difficulty low, let's imagine a scenario where ALL miners act the same and agree on the same logic.

Let's say we start the year with the following:

Scenario A

Epoch #1:

Difficulty at 10t, there are then ten guys mining BTC, each with 1 miner,  so a total of 10 gears, each gear gets 1/10 of the total reward

So after 2,016 and 2 weeks, every miner gets 201.6 blocks sent to his wallet.

Now they decide they want to make 201.6 blocks each but in a period shorter than 2 weeks.

epoch #2:

Those 10 guys buy an extra miner each

so

Diff at 10t, 20 miners, each miner gets 1/20 of the total reward, and each person still gets 1/10 ( takes only 1 week)

Epoch #3:

Diff at 20, 20 miners, each gets 1/20 of the total reward, and each person still gets 1/10 (takes 2 weeks) > back to square zero, but they are now burning double the power at epoch number 1.

So total mined coins will be 2,016*3 in 2+1+2 weeks, or 6,048 in 5 weeks.

Scenario B:


Epoch #1:
Difficulty at 10t, there are then ten guys mining BTC, each with 1 miner,  so a total of 10 gears, each gear gets 1/10 of the total reward

So after 2,016 and 2 weeks, every miner gets 201.6 blocks sent to his wallet.

Epoch #2:

mine the first 1,008 blocks with 20 gears, which will take only 3.5 days, turn off the new 10 gears and mine the remaining 1,008 with 10 gears which will take 1 week, so a total of 10.5 days as opposed to 1 week.

The next diff is going to be a 50% increase in difficulty.

Epoch #3:
diff at 15, 20 miners

mine the first 1,008 blocks with 20 gears, which will take 5.25 days, turn off  5 gears and mine the remaining 1,008 in 1 week with 15 gears

total reward = 6,048 in 2 weeks + 1 week + 3.5 days + 5.25 days + 1 week = 5.25

So 0.25 weeks more time or 5% more time by going with the second method, however, the power consumption difference is a follows

Scenario 1:

Assuming every miner needs 1kwh per day

Epoch 1 = 10 gears = 10khw a day * 2 weeks = 140 KwH total
Epoch 2 = 20 gears = 20 Kwh a day * 1 week = 140 KwH total
Epoch 2 = 20 gears = 20 Kwh a day * 2 week = 280 KwH total

Total power 560 KwH.

Scenario 1:
Epoch 1 = 10 gears = 10khw a day * 2 weeks = 140 KwH total
Epoch 2 = 20 gears for 3.5 days = 70KwH + 10 gears for 1 week = 70 = 140KwH total
Epoch 3 = 20 gears for 5.25 days  = 105KwH + 15 gears for 1 week = 105KwH = 210

Total = 490 KwH

which is 12.5% less power.


So more or less, 12.5% saving for 5% less reward

Now assuming all the players here use S19j Pro, and 6 cents per KwH, the miner pays 50% of its profit for the power bill

So if it makes 100$ in 3 epochs with scenario one, it nets only 50$ in profit
in Scenario 2, technically, it makes only 95$ but pays 12.5% less power so only 43.75 for the power which is 51.25$ net profit

50$ vs 51.25$ is  2.43% more profit by playing the diff game.

Keep in mind that this is based on everyone participating in the game and keeping their promise, the chances of anything similar happening is slim to nothing in my point of view.

The incentives need to be more than just direct profit/saving, I would lean more to a theory that suggests, Bitmain wants to grab some coins but not raise the difficulty to keep selling their gears at high prices, that might sound reasonable to some degree, but them turning off their gear to spare the network 1-2% diff increase, doing that alone is difficult to believe, unless someone thinks that there is really a mutual understanding between 70-80% of all miners to play a game as I explained in scenario 1.






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