holydarkness
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June 26, 2024, 04:09:42 PM |
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[...]
Two points that can be inferred from your teaching so far, one, minor league and the potential fixing within it didn't get investigated by the authorities of the league, and two, due to above, the bookmakers are the one who made the final call. Wow, people should change their mind, apparently you go to a length to paint fairlay as a bad actor here, because not only fairlay is not a bookmakers, the other actual bookmakers actually go with a decision to stick with the official result instead of voiding it. And from fairlay's own statement, the market maker on that bet wouldn't need to be compensated if the arbitrator decides to say so. [...] The market maker / counterparty in this bet has actually hedged the bet we learnt, so he does not have to be compensated if arbitrator decides so. It would also be acceptable for us and the market maker, if we donated the 799mBTC to charity. Just giving it back to the alleged criminal involved in match-fixing would be the wrong thing to do.[...] Thus, if you try to teach us that Fairlay is allowed to make their own call for this match...
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SeymourT
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June 26, 2024, 06:30:53 PM |
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[...]
Two points that can be inferred from your teaching so far, one, minor league and the potential fixing within it didn't get investigated by the authorities of the league, and two, due to above, the bookmakers are the one who made the final call. Wow, people should change their mind, apparently you go to a length to paint fairlay as a bad actor here, because not only fairlay is not a bookmakers, the other actual bookmakers actually go with a decision to stick with the official result instead of voiding it. And from fairlay's own statement, the market maker on that bet wouldn't need to be compensated if the arbitrator decides to say so. [...] The market maker / counterparty in this bet has actually hedged the bet we learnt, so he does not have to be compensated if arbitrator decides so. It would also be acceptable for us and the market maker, if we donated the 799mBTC to charity. Just giving it back to the alleged criminal involved in match-fixing would be the wrong thing to do.[...] Thus, if you try to teach us that Fairlay is allowed to make their own call for this match... You don't understand it because you have tunnel vision. If Fairlay allows this when Pinnacle matches bets Pinnacle will be taking the loss. Every cheater out there will come out paying off ping pong players and tennis players. Fairlay has to take a stand on cheaters or Pinny will never match bets. Fairlay wants to stop this gang from cheating.
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johanJ
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June 26, 2024, 11:22:44 PM |
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so it is pinacle who matches bets there ![Wink](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/wink.gif) overall, if anybody wants to win with this fairlay, we can say that he has a tunnel vision. If he wins money from them, pinacle will not match bets, they dont like to loose. So bettors, just loose at fairlay and pinacle will continue matching bets there. SIMPLE AS THAT
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Rating Place
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June 27, 2024, 12:58:02 AM Last edit: June 27, 2024, 01:33:50 AM by Rating Place |
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Against my better judgement, I’ll jump back in the fray.
I would throw out the argument that it wasn’t proven. Match fixing is never proven at the time the money is confiscated. The proof may come much later.
I would have to agree that this bet coming from a market maker other than Pinny is also irrelevant agreeing that Fairlay is sending a message. A decision can’t be made trying to determine the market maker as it may be Pinny in a future case, it’s setting a precedent. The rules state that there’s a penalty for match fixing.
I would hate to be the arbitrator, but in this case, as well as every other case where money has been confiscated, it’s based on the bets made and pattern.
As I’ve said many times, I don’t know what happened but the arbitrator’s decision should be based on the bets, nothing else and done in the same manner as other match fixing cases. All the questions on who, what and when come long after the decision to pay or not.
Sportsradar has some great information on match fixing. AI is playing a big role.
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holydarkness
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June 27, 2024, 03:18:54 PM |
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[...]
Two points that can be inferred from your teaching so far, one, minor league and the potential fixing within it didn't get investigated by the authorities of the league, and two, due to above, the bookmakers are the one who made the final call. Wow, people should change their mind, apparently you go to a length to paint fairlay as a bad actor here, because not only fairlay is not a bookmakers, the other actual bookmakers actually go with a decision to stick with the official result instead of voiding it. And from fairlay's own statement, the market maker on that bet wouldn't need to be compensated if the arbitrator decides to say so. [...] The market maker / counterparty in this bet has actually hedged the bet we learnt, so he does not have to be compensated if arbitrator decides so. It would also be acceptable for us and the market maker, if we donated the 799mBTC to charity. Just giving it back to the alleged criminal involved in match-fixing would be the wrong thing to do.[...] Thus, if you try to teach us that Fairlay is allowed to make their own call for this match... You don't understand it because you have tunnel vision. If Fairlay allows this when Pinnacle matches bets Pinnacle will be taking the loss. Every cheater out there will come out paying off ping pong players and tennis players. Fairlay has to take a stand on cheaters or Pinny will never match bets. Fairlay wants to stop this gang from cheating. So the solution will be, amongst many other possible bets, to take one with [subjectively] big win, where the market maker doesn't need to be compensated with whatever the arbitrator decide, then take an independent arbitrator who will pull investigation from only-god-knows-where-but-clearly-not-from-officials-of-the-league? Interesting. This should explains why they won't accept mediators who openly said they will rule to the player's favor. You sure you're here to teach us about things we don't understand and that we wrongly assumed fairlay is the bad actor here?
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Rating Place
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June 27, 2024, 04:02:58 PM |
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[...]
Two points that can be inferred from your teaching so far, one, minor league and the potential fixing within it didn't get investigated by the authorities of the league, and two, due to above, the bookmakers are the one who made the final call. Wow, people should change their mind, apparently you go to a length to paint fairlay as a bad actor here, because not only fairlay is not a bookmakers, the other actual bookmakers actually go with a decision to stick with the official result instead of voiding it. And from fairlay's own statement, the market maker on that bet wouldn't need to be compensated if the arbitrator decides to say so. [...] The market maker / counterparty in this bet has actually hedged the bet we learnt, so he does not have to be compensated if arbitrator decides so. It would also be acceptable for us and the market maker, if we donated the 799mBTC to charity. Just giving it back to the alleged criminal involved in match-fixing would be the wrong thing to do.[...] Thus, if you try to teach us that Fairlay is allowed to make their own call for this match... You don't understand it because you have tunnel vision. If Fairlay allows this when Pinnacle matches bets Pinnacle will be taking the loss. Every cheater out there will come out paying off ping pong players and tennis players. Fairlay has to take a stand on cheaters or Pinny will never match bets. Fairlay wants to stop this gang from cheating. So the solution will be, amongst many other possible bets, to take one with [subjectively] big win, where the market maker doesn't need to be compensated with whatever the arbitrator decide, then take an independent arbitrator who will pull investigation from only-god-knows-where-but-clearly-not-from-officials-of-the-league? Interesting. This should explains why they won't accept mediators who openly said they will rule to the player's favor. You sure you're here to teach us about things we don't understand and that we wrongly assumed fairlay is the bad actor here? Not directed towards me but I’ll answer this since I did recommend you. I know it was a misunderstanding as I didn’t explain it well, but Fairlay was looking to hold arbitration off the forum by one person with input from all on forum and you didn’t accept under those conditions. Ef declined to arbitrate. There is now arbitration being down off forum according to Fairlay’s post. People are holding Fairlay to a standard impossible to meet since outside investigation, if even done, will be done at a later time. Let’s ignore the Fairlay is an exchange, it works more like a book or seeded exchange. The question is how would you grade based on wagers made considering amounts, time of bets as well as these wagers being very high for a small market. Fairlay can only be judged on accessible information. Fairlay’s actions on the forum do not determine grading. Hopefully I’ll refrain from further comments.
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holydarkness
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June 27, 2024, 04:43:47 PM |
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Not directed towards me but I’ll answer this since I did recommend you. I know it was a misunderstanding as I didn’t explain it well, but Fairlay was looking to hold arbitration off the forum by one person with input from all on forum and you didn’t accept under those conditions. Ef declined to arbitrate. There is now arbitration being down off forum according to Fairlay’s post. People are holding Fairlay to a standard impossible to meet since outside investigation, if even done, will be done at a later time.
Let’s ignore the Fairlay is an exchange, it works more like a book or seeded exchange. The question is how would you grade based on wagers made considering amounts, time of bets as well as these wagers being very high for a small market. Fairlay can only be judged on accessible information. Fairlay’s actions on the forum do not determine grading.
Hopefully I’ll refrain from further comments.
Still doesn't explain why Fairlay choose this one [with all of the "perks" I mentioned above] instead of other bets for their "teaching opportunity". To lay it out in the open and being transparent, as previously said, that I have some questions and opinions that I think will add momentum to the pendulum, suppose this case goes further and fairlay did not sabotage their own "resolution attempt" by unilaterally choosing a mystery detective and goes on with having the public to give their opinion [and follows what the majority of the community suggested], I'll actually point out to newfish1 that it's there on the ToS, he was bound by those clauses he agreed upon signing up. Many other cases I see to a resolution ended with the ToS playing a big role that binds the cheater and nullifies their attempt, or the grumpy loser from wreaking havoc to a casino, it won't be fair if we close our eyes to that very same aspect for this case. There is a reason I deliberately made an archive of their ToS before asking them to point us out to the clause that they use as the basis of their decision; to see whether they'll play dirty by ninja-updating their ToS, but consulting to the archived version told me that those clauses are there before, newfish1 agreed to it upon sign up. Of which, almost simultaneously, I also asked newfish1 to begin defending himself by laying it out in the open his strategy, the one that he said will make it very clear that he didn't cheat. I'd like to know whether the point he provided will have enough weight to tip the scale [the one that previously moved toward fairlay] back to his direction. So yeah, I can understand the part where they want to be strict, those entire pingpong scenario. But, thanks to Seymour's post that teach us to see from different perspective and weight in things that we seemingly [at least to me] missed, it'll be very naive if we didn't consider a possibility that Fairlay has another agenda on this case. If they simply want to take action against fixed-bettors, why this one? The one where other bookmakers ruled as valid, the one which points I've mentioned above? They can go headache-free by having Jontay Porter's case. Or other case from major league where investigation from officials are more likely. Feel free to refrain from answering this, as I actually think SeymourT will be better fitted to explain. After all, it's his teaching moment that "open my eyes". So, Seymour, the room is yours.
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cryptofrka
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June 27, 2024, 06:51:57 PM |
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All defenders of Fairlay - why do you keep ignoring one question that is of huge significance?
Why does Fairlay offer a 1BTC pool of bets on over/under games in the Finnish amateur leagues? Nobody does that, you can bet 20$ on it on bwin or bet365.
If you take the bet, pay out. It's really that simple.
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mak013
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June 28, 2024, 02:58:55 PM |
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No one can prove that match is fixed except the official league administration. All of us can have only their own opinion. And the casino decided that it was fixed match. I don`t think that it is fair decision - it is their own opinion too. At least the casino must return the bet to gambler, but it would be better to pay his prize. PS. I never heard about casino, who return lost bets in the fixed matches.
How does an official ruling on match fixing make any difference in the payout? There are three suspicious matches every day and the bookmaker can't withhold money for a year on three matches every day waiting for some type of league administration to rule. The investigations may not even start for a month and most don't start. We have to stay in the real world instead of making stuff up on how it should be done. The bookmaker makes the decision since no one has any idea if an investigation will be started. The bookmakers marked the match as suspicious even the ones that paid. I said that i think that casino must at least return the bet. No one has proves that it is fixed match. A part of casino paid. And, as i said, casino don`t return lost bets, so they has enough money from such matches. I don`t see here a problem to return money for casino.
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gaissa
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July 01, 2024, 10:24:23 AM Last edit: July 01, 2024, 11:13:01 AM by gaissa |
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Has it been mentioned that all these three teams in question from Finland are closely connected by same people from Ukraine? Anatolii Moisieiev who plays for Futura was the chairman of Ilves-Kissat first but that was against the rules ( ![Cheesy](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif) ) so he stepped down. Finnkurd is somewhat a farm team of Ilves-Kissat, or should be. And there is more... So pretty damn huge coincidence to bet on those certain teams ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) All this has been noticed well on local football forum too. Feel free to join this thread and ask in English/Finnish/Swedish for more info as there are people with better knowledge about this than me: http://futisforum2.org/index.php?topic=119706.7925
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johanJ
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July 06, 2024, 10:37:07 PM |
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i have read the finish forum and before somebody brought up this thread the last posts were from 2021. They were as surprised as we were here but agreed that there is no evidence and nothing is done by federation or police. So pretty damn huge coincidence to bet on those certain teams ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) actually there is no coincedence at all. If you check any odds archive services online you will see that those matches were betted hard long before the games. It can be seen from the very big odds movement on exactly the same outcomes as in this thread. The fairlays situation here happened during the games. I guess the gambler in question saw the big betting on those results and decided to risk himself also.
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gaissa
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July 08, 2024, 12:26:09 PM |
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actually there is no coincedence at all. If you check any odds archive services online you will see that those matches were betted hard long before the games. It can be seen from the very big odds movement on exactly the same outcomes as in this thread.
The fairlays situation here happened during the games. I guess the gambler in question saw the big betting on those results and decided to risk himself also.
That is surely possible.
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Rating Place
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July 10, 2024, 07:30:43 AM Last edit: July 10, 2024, 02:24:16 PM by Rating Place |
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i have read the finish forum and before somebody brought up this thread the last posts were from 2021. They were as surprised as we were here but agreed that there is no evidence and nothing is done by federation or police. So pretty damn huge coincidence to bet on those certain teams ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) actually there is no coincedence at all. If you check any odds archive services online you will see that those matches were betted hard long before the games. It can be seen from the very big odds movement on exactly the same outcomes as in this thread. The fairlays situation here happened during the games. I guess the gambler in question saw the big betting on those results and decided to risk himself also. What about the other 4 fixed matches. Names, teams and how everyone is associated is now being posted on forums. Some books no longer take wagers on some of the teams. There were 5 fixed matches that the player bet. I'll go over the first one. There are 4 Ukranian players on Futura. All 4 were involved in questionable activity. Others were clean. Kiffen vs. Futura 1. Sinitsyn kicked the ball in his own goal. 2. Bazhan received a red card. No other red cards for the team. 3. Moiseiev received a yellow card. No other yellow cards for the team. 4. Kasakovv goalkeeper gave up 6 goals. ![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftalkimg.com%2Fimages%2F2024%2F07%2F10%2FohkMJ.jpeg&t=665&c=WVYejzwWZa3bcQ)
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johanJ
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July 12, 2024, 09:17:07 AM |
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What about the other 4 fixed matches.
why are u asking me? go check yourself and you will see that every match mentioned was heavily beted on (judging from the big moves of the odds) before the game
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VashaUdacha777
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Good afternoon ! I'm from Ukraine. To be honest, I have not met people who would bet such huge (for our country) sums of money on matches of the lower leagues of Finland. Not everyone can bet $1,000 on the European Championship final. Either this guy is a millionaire and doesn't care about money, or this is a dirty deal. I often saw a message offering to buy accounts. In our country, match-fixing scandals also often occur. This is especially true for youth teams. This is how the U19 team from the youth championship was punished 2 years ago. Their players played fixed matches. And there are many more similar stories. I'm just too lazy to look for them
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holydarkness
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July 13, 2024, 12:54:36 PM |
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Hello, sorry if it's a bit out of topic. Peeps... Rating Place made a statement on other thread assessing my response about this case which I believe is rather untrue and potentially misleading. I am here to straighten the record, Quote from holydarkness Now, Fairlay.
To say that we [or I] did not give them a chance to provide evidence is extremely misleading. They came, asking for arbitrator, the overseers suggest a panel of three mediators to maintain fairness, the player nominates two, Fairlay withdraw their request of arbitration for their own reason. This is my last post in this thread since I've asked you to stop nitpicking my every post. I've also asked to take Fairlay to the Fairlay thread. You want to post it here. Now you are being untruthfull about Fairlay. Fairlay asked efaltis to arbitrate, he said "no". Fairlay asked me to recommend and arbiter. I recommended you since Fairlay wanted a sole arbiter so as not to post private information to the public. You didn't accept. They didn't want a 3 panel board since it stated in their email that they were looking for one arbiter. Paraphrasing, they wanted someone to apply so that they could be vetted and heard privately. You tried to force rules upon Fairlay to post publicly and a 3 man board would decide. Fairlay posted multiple times that they were looking for an arbiter to apply by email. Fairlay has all the evidence, but you decided to make a decision without any evidence. It's now all out there in public. The names, the teams and associations of the fixed matches. Some books are no longer accepting wagers from teams. I'm out. Let's break it down, there are three points about me that, as far as my mind serves me, is not correct. First and the most obvious, not necessarily about me and not necessarily a lie, thus I am not marking it in red, instead an underline, " They didn't want a 3 panel board since it stated in their email that they were looking for one arbiter." I believe this is what the entire thread overseer understood, that they wanted to get a thing resolved, and they suggested three mediator to ensure neutrality, far as I know, it's not even me who suggested it, so not sure why it's held against me. Second, You tried to force rules upon Fairlay to post publicly and a 3 man board would decide., point us out, Peeps, point us out to the post where I tried to force rules upon fairlay. Third, but you decided to make a decision without any evidence, kindly point us out to my post where I decide against fairlay without any evidence.
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AHOYBRAUSE
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July 13, 2024, 02:11:27 PM |
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Seems like these Fairlay clowns left this thread as well as the site for good. Last post over a month ago, last time online "Last Active: June 26, 2024" . Fair to assume the bit their own ass opening this thread. Making bold accusations and statements without any proof. Sad to see that a site like this is acting in such a way but guess we have to get used to this these days, very sad.
I think I will unwatch this thread now since I honesty doubt they will come back or even reconsider their actions. The reputation is damaged anyway, they will just continue with this behaviour and hopefully pay the price at some point. People should be aware of this though!
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Rating Place
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July 13, 2024, 05:58:32 PM Last edit: July 14, 2024, 06:21:12 AM by Rating Place |
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This whole thing was a big misunderstanding. Fairlay posted 6 times, in every post, that they wanted one arbiter. The evidence in the first post was there to see if someone could handle the case, not try the case in public. Fairlay’s sole purpose of the thread was to find one arbiter and they were paying .005 BTC. Quote by holydarkness they suggested three mediator to ensure neutrality, they never suggested a 3 man panel. This type of thinking caused the whole problem. No one here wanted to arbitrate. After approximately two weeks Fairlay found another party to arbitrate and left. After Fairlay left, posters kept wanting to try the case here in public with a 3 man panel. Posters kept asking questions of Fairlay. After not getting a response from Fairlay, they started a smear campaign and fabricated reasons for Fairlay's departure. Fairlays posts anlways asking for an arbiter. First post May 29 If you feel qualified to handle the case, you may apply in this thread. We are still looking for a reputable arbitrator to settle this between us. @newfish1 wouid you agree to have askgamblers.com as arbitrator in this case? And we are still looking for an arbitrator. It can be anyone with some online reputation in the sector. We reached out to Sportsbookreview. AskGamblers unfortunately refused. Anyway, we will wait for arbitrator's decision and will follow suit. We were contacted by another party who was working for a Betting Integrity Unit and hopefully can help us find the best arbitrator with the necessary experience Just one arbitrator should be enough. Last post saying they aren't sharing anymore and they leftnor any further information shared until these investigations are completed. I don’t get paid by Fairlay. Fairlay didn’t ask me to post. Even if I were a Fairlay employee, the facts don’t change. the post was edited to make it easier.
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johanJ
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July 20, 2024, 01:38:29 PM |
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there is some talk fairlay has russian money in them that would certainly explain all the ukrainian hate
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