These new EFFICIENT x11 algos everyone is talking about ?? BULLSHIT or real?

[cryptohunter]

So what is the deal with these.  I keep hearing this same thing mentioned over and over again.

x11 - some of the algos contained with in this mish mash .... apparently only draw 50% of the power of scrypt and result obviously in lower temps?

 is this just marketing misinformation?  I mean the very fact that the miners most people are using to mine these algos are not yet using the cards full capacity does NOT mean some people on here don't have miners for these algos that do use the cards full capacity and are more efficient?  

It it really like me giving you the same car as i have. Then limiting yours to 1000rpm and first gear... and then saying after 1 hour look you've used half the fuel and your engine is only half as warm as mine and i have been driving around in 6th gear at 3000rpm.....  I forget to mention you have only travelled 5 miles where as i have travelled 20x further.

Are these new algos just easier opportunity for those in the know to shaft the average gpu miner without even purchasing new hardware to do it?


Do these miners that seemingly only use 50% of the power of the card to mine these algos .....have a lot of room for optimisation ??  

Seems like most could be mining these thinking how efficient they are when really they are just running detuned settings? whilst others are in effect getting a huge advantage??


Or is that unlikely and everyone is mining on a fair playing field??

They are not as memory intensive as scrypt it would seem so are open to a lot of SECRET optimisation by those in the know?

Seems this new list of seemingly endless algos are getting a lot of hype lately.

Also it has been said that building asics for these would not be anywhere near as hard as it was for a scrypt asic............ so you can be sure that there will be lots of secret asic miners raping gpu miners hard soon on these algos if that is not already happening?

There could well be already plenty of asics out there for a lot of these algos ....?

Then how about x11 itself ... seems like just a marketing name that sounds cool? however is it really an advancement or backward step that is open to exploitation of gpu miners above and beyond scrypt even?

Tell me some good things about x11 that push it above the chained algos and scrypt N we already have?

SO FAR IT SMELLS LIKE X11 IS AT BEST MARKETING HYPE OVER NOTHING....AT WORST A SCAM SINCE PEOPLE ARE SEEING 1.8GH AND 1.2GH MINERS SHOWING UP ON THE POOLS... that is VERY strange. Are there modified miners for x11 which are getting 5x 10x 20x 100x the hashing rate? or are there some who have x11 asics?  

However some questions that still have not been answered by page 6 on this thread....

x11 - does it have any clear advantages over algos coins are already using or just bullshit with nothing to back it up??

1. is it more efficient than qrk?
2. is it more secure than qrk?
3. is it more efficient than scrypt? or is the miner just crippled and can't use the full potential of the card?
4. are there more efficient miners already out for x11 that are more optimised?
5. is it more asic resistant that qrk?
6. is it more asic resistant that scyptN , scrypt jane
7. is it x12, x13, x99 going to be better? will we need to fork all of the coins over and over again?


just tell me some definite benefits of x11 that are real benefits not maybe beneficial but then again if the miner can be improved shown to not be beneficial at all.


come on how hard is it to sell the best solution out there right now???

SO FAR WE ARE ON PAGE 6 - CLIFF NOTES -


X11 THERE IS NO EVIDENCE YET TO SUGGEST IT IS MORE  ASIC RESISTANT THAN SCRYPT N OR SCRYPT JANE WITH HIGH N OR QRK
X11 THERE IS NO EVIDENCE YET TO SUGGEST IT IS MORE SECURE THAN QRK ALGOS
X11 THERE IS NO EVIDENCE YET TO SUGGEST IT IS MORE EFFICIENT THAN QRK ALGOS
X11 HAS SOME 1.8GH AND 1.2GH MINERS AROUND - can the x11 miner be greatly modified by some to increase hash rate in a very big way? are there already x11 asics? this still seems to be in question.

conclusion thus far = x11 is marketing hype with no real advantages over previous algos or algo chains before it..

If you are a person reading this thinking .... but really really it does use less electricity and my cards run cooler..... this is a PROBLEM not essentially an advantage. If you understand that the mining software you are using is probably limited or inefficient and therefore not pushing your gpu to the full extent. It's like me and you having the same car. They are identical. I offer to race you but yours i have now limited to 1000revs and first gear. Mine is not. I thrash you in the race but you are still happy because you burned less fuel and your engine is nice a cool.  That is not the point. There could be people racing around with miners mining your coin at a way faster rate....and possibly not only way faster way more effiicient too... What if my car can not only go 10x as fast it can go 10x as far too? how would you like that? would you prefer i remove the rev limiter and allow you to engage a few more gears too?  Hmmm seems more unfair than even me pulling up in a lambo next to your 10yr old mid range piece of crap and thrashing you right? since at least i had to pay a lot more money for my lambo?? that was an asic analogy by the way.... however again i don't have an asic and would not order a scrypt asic now. The race is on for those and if you're not first in who knows if you will get your money back. However x11 is not the answer from what i can tell. It seems to offer nothing above and beyond current algos and is as  open to all of  the problems and more so than some algos we already have.  Don't be too fast to push your favourite coin into converting to x11 yet. Let' wait for the real boffins to show up and explain why it is better for us all. I currently have interest in 3 new coins all of which the community is kind of pushing for x11 adoption....even i was a few days ago. Now though i am almost certain it is a BIG mistake and is not worth it at best and i open to vast exploitation at worst.

However this is not a fact this is speculation at this point. However the points above seem to be actual facts.

THIS HAS NOW TURNED ALSO INTO A DISCUSSION REGARDING DRKCOIN...THANKS TWO TAOWAY A HELPFUL PERSON WHO HAS HIGHLIGHTED TO FACTS PREVIOUSLY OVER LOOKED.

1. Dark coin (called some other name) was launched  and the BLOCK EXPLORER shows a huge amount of blocks being instamined almost INSTANTLY.
2. Dark coin bolstered their instamine by starting WITHOUT AND WINDOWS QT ( THANKS FOR BRINGING THIS TO MY ATTENTION)

[slapper]

Looking at your post history, it looks like you may already know the answer.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=92110;sa=showPosts;start=0

But it is fun to spread shit on a forum all day.

[iopq]

Groestlcoin has the lowest temperature/power usage from my tests, actually

it's by design: the algorithm is made to be hard to parallelize

[cryptohunter]

Looking at your post history, it looks like you may already know the answer.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=92110;sa=showPosts;start=0

But it is fun to spread shit on a forum all day.

I am asking a genuine question.... the answers given so far are not conclusive.

Fucking noob trolls butting in with their bullshit answers. If you have nothing to add GFTO

If x11 has something to add here let's here about it.......or else let's get rid of the x11 myth now.

[Spoetnik]

So what is the deal with these.  I keep hearing this same thing mentioned over and over again.

x11 - some of the algos contained with in this mish mash .... apparently only draw 50% of the power of scrypt and result obviously in lower temps?


HOWEVER is this just marketing misinformation?  I mean the very fact that the miners most people are using to mine these algos are not yet using the cards full capacity does NOT mean some people on here don't have miners for these algos that do use the cards full capacity and are more efficient?  

It it really like me giving you the same car as i have. Then limiting yours to 1000rpm and first gear... and then saying after 1 hour look you've used half the fuel and your engine is only half as warm as mine and i have been driving around in 6th gear at 3000rpm.....  I forget to mention you have only travelled 5 miles where as i have travelled 20x further.

Are these new algos just easier opportunity for those in the know to shaft the average gpu miner without even purchasing new hardware to do it?


Do these miners that seemingly only use 50% of the power of the card to mine these algos .....have a lot of room for optimisation ??  

Seems like most could be mining these thinking how efficient they are when really they are just running detuned settings? whilst others are in effect getting a huge advantage??


Or is that unlikely and everyone is mining on a fair playing field??

They are not as memory intensive as scrypt it would seem so are open to a lot of SECRET optimisation by those in the know?

Seems this new list of seemingly endless algos are getting a lot of hype lately.

Also it has been said that building asics for these would not be anywhere near as hard as it was for a scrypt asic............ so you can be sure that there will be lots of secret asic miners raping gpu miners hard soon on these algos if that is not already happening?

There could well be already plenty of asics out there for a lot of these algos ....?

Then how about x11 itself ... seems like just a marketing name that sounds cool? however is it really an advancement or backward step that is open to exploitation of gpu miners above and beyond scrypt even?

Tell me some good things about x11 that push it above the chained algos and scrypt N we already have?

It's not doing the same amount of work that's why..

and someone please show me your miner running at perm 100% cpu usage lol

hmm i suspect the coin starter has an angle he has been exploiting from day 1 and i already mentioned it more than once.
i should go confirm it if i can and put an end to this X11 propaganda bullshit.

taking the Quark algo and adding a couple more hashing fuctions doesn't mean you made something new..
the whole deal here is they decided to give their useless pile of shit mash up of hashing algo's a snazzy name
and that strikes it big with kids that wish they knew anything about hashing algo's.
so i think all we are seeing now is bag holders spouting off about their Brand Name being fanboys to defend their flash mined coins their bag holding.

also comparing scrypt to that crap is retarded.
would you compare two guys having a foot race but one runs 1 mile and another run 10 miles ? and saying the guy wins because he did 1 mile first ?
It's seriously fucking retarded and i keep saying it over and over and everyone out there is seriously bloody stupid buying this scammy bullshit and brand name fanboyism.

The real question is there is a TON of wiggle room for the dev to have all along been corrupt about the coin launch and did he ?
There is no doubt most people are naive and gullable around here and don't even know about previous stunts that went down..
And many of us DO know these coin cloners simply get exposed and their coin dies off and they need to get an new amount and a new coin mod clone to flog..
why in the hell should you guys give the cloners the benefit of the doubt ?

edit:
I think i am going to expose this coin once and for all.. i have had enough of the bullshit going on.

edit:
also it is not more efficient because say Scypt-N coins are 3x more profitable but are using more elctricity.. do the math ........

[cryptohunter]

Groestlcoin has the lowest temperature/power usage from my tests, actually

it's by design: the algorithm is made to be hard to parallelize

So, when mining this coin with the current miner available it uses less power and the temps are lower. I understand this part.

However, say there was for instance another miner that was coded to make full use of the gpu's hardware would it then use the same power and run at the same temps as scrypt.?


What i am trying to ask is.... with these seemingly efficient algos..... are they really efficient at all?  could it be that the miner itself is just very inefficient as with the example i gave in my car analogy in the first post?


If that is possible then some people could already be having almost asic power advantages in comparison without even purchasing new hardware.??

It really does seem that high N factor coins are the only real asic resistant coins?

I am not talking down drk coin here, it's main selling point is the dark send anyway.............let's just nip the x11 over hyped bullshit here if it is not true. I had previously thought it was some amazing new mishmash of algos that made it very useful. However after asking around it seems this is some huge marketing ploy and a lot of misinformed noobs running around proliferating this misinformation.

However if x11 is really useful please let's have some x11 fans with coding experience explain in detail why it is superior to memory hard algos scrypt ect, and super memory hard scrypt jane with high N factor. Also if it is even better than QRK and it's clones or not.

Let's have an informed discussion so that noobs and those of us that are not coders can make an informed choice on these things.

Right now i think a lot of people could really be getting exploited by this x11 and other " efficient algos" hype.


If x11 has brought something new to the table above other single algos or previous chained algo coins that is great....let's hear from real coders regarding this. I have not really seen any discussion about it apart from those just saying how amazing they presume it is because it has more algos in its chain.

Come on coders help us understand.... is x11 a good thing or a marketing joke.

What about x15 if we throw another 4 algos in?  is that better?

Is it better to have them random or sequential in the chain?

[precrime3]

I will post gpuz/cgminer screenshots if you would like of my gpu (7750) running script and x11 algos. I don't have a watt meter so I can't measure power consumption but one can assume lower temps, lower watt usage.

[cryptohunter]

I will post gpuz/cgminer screenshots if you would like of my gpu (7750) running script and x11 algos. I don't have a watt meter so I can't measure power consumption but one can assume lower temps, lower watt usage.

Yep, i mean nobody doubts that mining x11 with the current "widely known" x11 miners we have... uses less of the cards resources than scrypt or scrypt n, scrypt jane etc. So it does use less electricity and outputs less heat.

However, read the car analogy in the OP to see what we are really asking here.

[precrime3]

I will post gpuz/cgminer screenshots if you would like of my gpu (7750) running script and x11 algos. I don't have a watt meter so I can't measure power consumption but one can assume lower temps, lower watt usage.

Yep, i mean nobody doubts that mining x11 with the current "widely known" x11 miners we have... uses less of the cards resources than scrypt or scrypt n, scrypt jane etc. So it does use less electricity and outputs less heat.

However, read the car analogy in the OP to see what we are really asking here.

I saw your car analogy, and I can't quite really give a solid answer. I mean, if everyone is using that algo to mine, what does it matter someone is mining "faster" as it is all relative to the algorithm. IMO, we should mine the most efficient algorithm energy and heat wise, as your hash rate is proportional. This does make ASICS easier to make as the more efficient an algo is, the easier it is to ASIC.

[Rofo]

What he's asking is while you are mining x11 on your 'deliberately inefficient' software and GPUs, are there already those out there with optimized/tweaked hardware and software mining much more than the rest of you right now?

I'm not sure of the answer, but it's an uncomfortable question and I wouldn't be surprised if there are.

[precrime3]

What he's asking is while you are mining x11 on your 'deliberately inefficient' software and GPUs, are there already those out there with optimized/tweaked hardware and software mining much more than the rest of you right now?

I'm not sure of the answer, but it's an uncomfortable question and I wouldn't be surprised if there are.

Wait he's asking if there is a more efficient miner of the x11 algo?

[cryptohunter]

What he's asking is while you are mining x11 on your 'deliberately inefficient' software and GPUs, are there already those out there with optimized/tweaked hardware and software mining much more than the rest of you right now?

I'm not sure of the answer, but it's an uncomfortable question and I wouldn't be surprised if there are.

Exactly.

More over the next x11 claim is that is it more secure than previous chained algos for example qrk, secure coin, sif coin simply because it has more algos?  is this true?  with the previous ones they were random, this x11 is sequential so you can predict easily which is coming next?  so is it more secure or not.... i mean are chained algos more secure anyway than single algos?


Let's not decided yet , but really where are the x11 fans??. I mean those that are fans of x11 that are actually coders that understand and can explain to us in simple terms why they are fans.

I was very pro x11, but then when i started to ask a few more questions beyond the fact everyone else was saying it was awesome.... it appeared nobody really had any idea why it was awesome or even needed at all?

We had memory hard N factor coins and we have chained algo coins with randow hash selection?

why all of a sudden was x11 awesome and the new saviour when it apparently gives nothing new and is also very possibly giving serious advantage to those with more efficient miners?

[cryptowho]

There is a rumor that there are primed mining x11 miner that seclusive people are mining away right now . yes

[cryptohunter]

What he's asking is while you are mining x11 on your 'deliberately inefficient' software and GPUs, are there already those out there with optimized/tweaked hardware and software mining much more than the rest of you right now?

I'm not sure of the answer, but it's an uncomfortable question and I wouldn't be surprised if there are.

Wait he's asking if there is a more efficient miner of the x11 algo?

Not just of x11 but of all of these algos that seem to only use a fraction of your gpus potential. I mean it could be that there is a bottleneck somewhere for these algos and that this is the limit of the card in its current design i guess. However we don't know that, and what is this bottleneck if it is not the memory?

I am not saying one way or another, i am no coder, nor have elementary understanding of crypto really. I am just asking is this mythical new x11 and obsession with other new efficient algos a load of bullshit and that most of us just have no way of utilising the full potential of our gpus whilst some people are probably laughing at this obsession knowing full well it is nothing to do with the algo itself being efficient as some people think, merely we don't have a clue how to mine it yet whilst they do?

In addition to this i heard that to build asics for some of these other algos would be far easier and way less expensive? is that also true?

[DigiByte]

There is a rumor that there are primed mining x11 miner that seclusive people are mining away right now . yes

+1 We feel the public miner is not utilizing 100% of the GPU, hence the lower power usage. We are positive the miner can be better coded to use more GPU power, if it hasn't already.

[precrime3]

Yeah I get it now, as GPUZ claims on Avg. 89% loads, but WU in cgminer for me stays the same. If it could be better coded, what do you think the hash rate improvements would be? Also as stated before, what would the consumption increase be like?

[cryptohunter]

Yeah I get it now, as GPUZ claims on Avg. 89% loads, but WU in cgminer for me stays the same. If it could be better coded, what do you think the hash rate improvements would be? Also as stated before, what would the consumption increase be like?

who can say, these kind of things with way better optimisation can often yield very high gains...

and even this is NOT the point.... if everyone was then given the new miner that could utilise the full potential of your gpu... then it would be pointless because then everyone will mine using the same power and temps as scrypt? and there goes  any temps and efficiency argument for x11 or the other less memory hard algos.... this bullshit about efficient algos is just a myth?

when people are screaming about more efficient algos...... are they actually screaming these algos leave it open for average miners to get raped by those who know how to make better mining software.

So if we debunk the efficiency claims... we are left with the security claims...


Is x11 more secure than other chained algos?  is having the sequential just as secure as having them random?

What about we tag on some more algos make it x15.... would that be more secure.

If we are talking asic resistant is there point tagging more algos or just go with scrytn or scrypt jane with high N factor?

So far i am starting to see zero reason for any coin to use x11. I hope i am wrong because i see a lot of coin thread including some i have previously even suggested they should add x11.... now i see i was probably repeating a load of crap that i just heard and assumed since everyone was saying it and there were no people coming forwards strongly to say that this new mishmash was all marketing hype and no substance at best and at worst an opportunity for normal miners to be put at a gross disadvantage.

[precrime3]

I personally don't care about ASIC resistance, as it's going to happen eventually. It seems ASIC resistance is a balancing act, if the algo is too "hard" then the GPU will be churning at max getting like no kh/s (in comparison to other algo's). I think the best way to go with this is just chain another algo to it every so often, so naming scheme could either be x11 to x12 or x11.1 or something like that....

[Wipeout2097]

I don't see where's a serious bottleneck or some conspiracy. Since X11 (and hefty, keccak and those others from sph-sgminer) is not memory hard, you're not stressing the memory controller, L2 caches and the ram chips.

You're used to scrypt, see it as a "reference" and say that others must not be optimized due to low power use and thermals. However, scrypt is the odd one out in the first place, a complete card fuck like Furmark or some videocard stress test.

[Soulmate]

I think that the best miner out there at the moment is sgminer when it comes to best performance overall!

Correct me if i am wrong please.