These new EFFICIENT x11 algos everyone is talking about ?? BULLSHIT or real?

[smolen]

With sufficient funding, how long would it take to roll out usable ASICs based on a multi algo concept?

I know people who work with VHDL, but nothing about ASIC manufacturing prices Numbers out of thin air for FPGA route  - I'd expect 300 MH/s X11 algo board with 6 Spartan 6 LX150 chips to be developed in half of year with 50000 USD development cost, production price would be something like 2000 USD per board. (Anyone with actual field knowledge is welcome to correct me!)

Do you think you can hold up to AMD and nVidia? They are not gonna miss that boat for very much longer.
Not only for crypto hashing, but for any kind of a custom instruction set for scientific applications.
They are not sleeping on trees.

Err... Implementing bit matrix rotation instruction would give AMD a huge advantage in crypto world... and possibly an export ban And for most scientific calculation NVidia is already the best choice.

no offense smolen was just stating the facts.. you did what you did before

No offense noticed

[haggis]

and one guy said earlier SHA256 is 100% optimized and then he said Scypt was not.. pure bullshit..
if there was some major optimization that could be done to scrypt it would been done already so don't feed me that bs to push an angle lol
i know i looked into it specifically actually and aside from some hashing checking optimization which did little i didn't see anything major..

There still is a possibility to speedup Scrypt on GPU (as used in Litecoin and implemented in cgminer, there are too many scrypts today ) - something like 20%, may be 50% with some luck. No one noticed misplaced 'if' operator

Just want to pop this sentence up.
Was this ironic or do you have the holy grail of scrypt? 

[smolen]

There still is a possibility to speedup Scrypt on GPU (as used in Litecoin and implemented in cgminer, there are too many scrypts today ) - something like 20%, may be 50% with some luck. No one noticed misplaced 'if' operator

Just want to pop this sentence up.
Was this ironic or do you have the holy grail of scrypt? 

Misplaced 'if' in lookup gap mode Not exactly sure how much it could be optimized

#if (LOOKUP_GAP == 1)
#elif (LOOKUP_GAP == 2)
    if (j&1)
        salsa(V);
#else
    uint val = j%LOOKUP_GAP;
    for (uint z=0; z<val; ++z)
        salsa(V);
#endif

#pragma unroll
    for(uint z=0; z<zSIZE; ++z)
        X[z] ^= V[z];
    salsa(X);

[cryptohunter]

My god, all you senior and hero all day posters, you just sound so fucked up in this thread, it's unbelievable.
Do you really consider somebody with a brain between their ears is going to fall for your twitter?

they sound fucked up to you sadly because it turns out you and your fantasies of child abuse are not the norm. Now i know that has sent you reeling back into your chair stunned by this revelation ... but don't panic. These feelings of alienation and self loathing you're experiencing are part of the natural healing process . A lot of things probably seem fucked up to you don't they.. however the world will start making a lot more sense once you're strapped down in that pit with like minded sexual deviants.

Also since you are unable to answer a simple question with a straight answer and when you have answered you seem to either lie or spread more misinformation... it's seems more informed persons than yourself don't agree that x11 is more asic resistant than quark at all, and now it seems throwing more algos together could actually have negative effects i must update the OP with this in bold so more people get to read the truth before they are disturbed into leaving by your unnatural desires.

However, we can't let your unfortunate illness get in the way of our simple quest. We will continue to examine x11.  So far to be honest it has looked a little disappointing .... i was hoping for much better.

The sole proponent flipmeoff(whilstithinkaboutkids) is doing a good job of destroying x11.  Although come on ... we can't really take the crazy sexually charged rantings of this depraved pervert into the equation. It would be unfair of us to allow him to speak up for x11.  

There will probably be someone without serious mental illness come along at some point and sell to us x11 in it's full glory.

So anyway we go a step further... it looks like quark could resist asics a little longer than x11....  will update it all in the OP as we go.

[Wipeout2097]

Seriously, cryptohunter, what are you trying to accomplish in this thread? Do you want a technical discussion, or more drama?

[MinerP]

Seriously, cryptohunter, what are you trying to accomplish in this thread? Do you want a technical discussion, or more drama?

exactly.... losing interest in this thread now....

[cryptohunter]

Seriously, cryptohunter, what are you trying to accomplish in this thread? Do you want a technical discussion, or more drama?

exactly.... losing interest in this thread now....

both of you two have been x11 pro from the start... of course you are starting to lose interest in x11 this is understandable

the facts are becoming clear already.


x11 is no more efficient than quark

x11 is no more asic resistant and probably less resistant to asics than quark and scryptN

x11 is quite possibly less secure

x11 is looking like marketing hype plain and simple. If you lost interest now at least you can leave with a greater insight into x11 and help by stopping people parroting the new x11 religion across the board. It simply is not as great as some would have you believe.

It is quite possible that all these coins about to fork to x11 could all be forking back to scryptN or QRK in the near future.

[rumlazy]

both of you two have been x11 pro from the start... of course you are not interested .........

the facts are becoming clear already.


x11 is no more efficient than quark

x11 is no more asic resistant and probably less resistant to asics


x11 is not as asic resistant as scrypt N

Scrypt N is the least asic resistant of the bunch, considering there are upcoming scrypt asics that have already announced N support.  It's just scrypt with a higher memory req. 

[Kai Proctor]

Don't post in this thread if your answer is not in agreement with the opinion of the OP. The question in the title is purely rhetorical

 

[cryptohunter]

both of you two have been x11 pro from the start... of course you are not interested .........

the facts are becoming clear already.


x11 is no more efficient than quark

x11 is no more asic resistant and probably less resistant to asics


x11 is not as asic resistant as scrypt N

Scrypt N is the least asic resistant of the bunch, considering there are upcoming scrypt asics that have already announced N support.  It's just scrypt with a higher memory req. 

really? this is interesting... a new turn of events it seems. Have a link?  wouldn't the level of N determine just how much higher the memory requirement needs to be? Perhaps it's true though..... where is the link and who is the company... if knc were saying it then i guess we could take that at face value. I guess if they can produce asics for high N factor algos then that's another anti asic avenue closed down.

Anyway post the link so we can have a look... thanks.

[cryptohunter]

Don't post in this thread if your answer is not in agreement with the opinion of the OP. The question in the title is purely rhetorical

 

ERR i'm sorry but i don't get what you are getting at?  post something that backs up your statement.

Although it has to be said you made your x11 fan boy feelings known from the start.

Have i posted something regarding x11 that makes you feel i have not listened and posted fair summary of what has been said here?

If so quote them in your next post so that i may get some clue of what you are hinting at.

[rumlazy]

really? this is interesting... a new turn of events it seems. Have a link?  wouldn't the level of N determine just how much higher the memory requirement needs to be? Perhaps it's true though..... where is the link and who is the company... if knc were saying it then i guess we could take that at face value. I guess if they can produce asics for high N factor algos then that's another anti asic avenue closed down.

Anyway post the link so we can have a look... thanks.

http://blissdevices.com

Neon mines any Scrypt-based currency and supports configurable parameters that address adaptive algorithms for future coins.

It's debatable if the company is legit and going to deliver but I've heard some other asic companies are thinking about doing the same thing.


http://www.reddit.com/r/scryptmining/comments/20x6r0/bliss_devices_announces_new_prices_on_scrypt/cg8xcd6

Our chip supports configurable N parameters which allows it to mine N-factor scrypt up to N=262144, which is still about 35 years away.

[cryptohunter]

really? this is interesting... a new turn of events it seems. Have a link?  wouldn't the level of N determine just how much higher the memory requirement needs to be? Perhaps it's true though..... where is the link and who is the company... if knc were saying it then i guess we could take that at face value. I guess if they can produce asics for high N factor algos then that's another anti asic avenue closed down.

Anyway post the link so we can have a look... thanks.

http://blissdevices.com

Neon mines any Scrypt-based currency and supports configurable parameters that address adaptive algorithms for future coins.

It's debatable if the company is legit and going to deliver but I've heard some other asic companies are thinking about doing the same thing.


http://www.reddit.com/r/scryptmining/comments/20x6r0/bliss_devices_announces_new_prices_on_scrypt/cg8xcd6

Our chip supports configurable N parameters which allows it to mine N-factor scrypt up to N=262144, which is still about 35 years away.

thanks for posting... seems alarming that asics have gone from no way going to mine scrypt to now possibly scrypt N..... so we are saying memory hard is not out of the question based on hardware costs now.

I am not saying it is true or not true... but worrying to see them claiming they have done it already.  So if memory intensive is not the way to go... what is left to halt asics?  multi algos but needing to add more and more of them to stay ahead?

Seems gpu miners perhaps don't have as long left in the game as we hoped.  Unless amd decides it likes having bumper sales and tags on some asic features to the cards.

[Kai Proctor]

Don't post in this thread if your answer is not in agreement with the opinion of the OP. The question in the title is purely rhetorical

 

ERR i'm sorry but i don't get what you are getting at?  post something that backs up your statement.

Although it has to be said you made your x11 fan boy feelings known from the start.

Have i posted something regarding x11 that makes you feel i have not listened and posted fair summary of what has been said here?

If so quote them in your next post so that i may get some clue of what you are hinting at.

Here we go "X11 pro" "X11 fan boy" etc. You seemed partial from the start. Your emphasis on the word "bullshit" in the title, the way you answer to people defending X11. This is not a discussion, this is a statement.

[cryptohunter]

Don't post in this thread if your answer is not in agreement with the opinion of the OP. The question in the title is purely rhetorical

 

ERR i'm sorry but i don't get what you are getting at?  post something that backs up your statement.

Although it has to be said you made your x11 fan boy feelings known from the start.

Have i posted something regarding x11 that makes you feel i have not listened and posted fair summary of what has been said here?

If so quote them in your next post so that i may get some clue of what you are hinting at.

Here we go "X11 pro" "X11 fan boy" etc. You seemed partial from the start. Your emphasis on the word "bullshit" in the title, the way you answer to people defending X11. This is not a discussion, this is a statement.

Well the title can be altered if it offends you so much.... however be honest for a moment... from what we have come up with so far on this thread do you really think the x11 hype is a bit over cooked??

I mean come on every community is screaming for x11 as if it is a saviour to all of our problems... i hear it is super efficient way more so than anything out there, i hear it is asic PROOF, i hear that it is far more secure against attacks.... these things are looking like bullshit or at the very least blown out of proportion. That is without the fact there could be away to optimise the x11 miner beyond what most people are using.

x11 maybe a better in some ways than some other algos but i do not think it is as good as people are pumping it up to be.

If it really is then i would have gone all out for it to be implemented in on the coins that i contribute hash or time too. In fact i was the first to suggest moving to x11 in some communities. Only when talking to developers have i heard some dislike of it which shocked me since i thought it was apparently the best thing since sliced bread.  Now after hearing a few rumours i simply came here to ask is it all bullshit or is it worth forking a coin over to and having all of that hassle, because if we are doing all this for nothing and we have to fork again to ScryptN or QRK in a few weeks that will be a major waste of money for small communities and a lot of time wasted.

[Kai Proctor]

Don't post in this thread if your answer is not in agreement with the opinion of the OP. The question in the title is purely rhetorical

 

ERR i'm sorry but i don't get what you are getting at?  post something that backs up your statement.

Although it has to be said you made your x11 fan boy feelings known from the start.

Have i posted something regarding x11 that makes you feel i have not listened and posted fair summary of what has been said here?

If so quote them in your next post so that i may get some clue of what you are hinting at.

Here we go "X11 pro" "X11 fan boy" etc. You seemed partial from the start. Your emphasis on the word "bullshit" in the title, the way you answer to people defending X11. This is not a discussion, this is a statement.

Well the title can be altered if it offends you so much.... however be honest for a moment... from what we have come up with so far on this thread do you really think the x11 hype is a bit over cooked??

I mean come on every community is screaming for x11 as if it is a saviour to all of our problems... i hear it is super efficient way more so than anything out there, i hear it is asic PROOF, i hear that it is far more secure against attacks.... these things are looking like bullshit or at the very least blown out of proportion. That is without the fact there could be away to optimise the x11 miner beyond what most people are using.

Nobody said ASIC proof but resistant, hardware implementation of X11 is possible but more difficult.
The source of the GPU miner is available, those who argue that it is not optimized enough must have (I hope) some programming notions, therefore they are welcome to point out the flaws and correct them.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475795.0

[cryptohunter]

Don't post in this thread if your answer is not in agreement with the opinion of the OP. The question in the title is purely rhetorical

 

ERR i'm sorry but i don't get what you are getting at?  post something that backs up your statement.

Although it has to be said you made your x11 fan boy feelings known from the start.

Have i posted something regarding x11 that makes you feel i have not listened and posted fair summary of what has been said here?

If so quote them in your next post so that i may get some clue of what you are hinting at.

Here we go "X11 pro" "X11 fan boy" etc. You seemed partial from the start. Your emphasis on the word "bullshit" in the title, the way you answer to people defending X11. This is not a discussion, this is a statement.

Well the title can be altered if it offends you so much.... however be honest for a moment... from what we have come up with so far on this thread do you really think the x11 hype is a bit over cooked??

I mean come on every community is screaming for x11 as if it is a saviour to all of our problems... i hear it is super efficient way more so than anything out there, i hear it is asic PROOF, i hear that it is far more secure against attacks.... these things are looking like bullshit or at the very least blown out of proportion. That is without the fact there could be away to optimise the x11 miner beyond what most people are using.

Nobody said ASIC proof but resistant, hardware implementation of X11 is possible but more difficult.
The source of the GPU miner is available, those who argue that it is not optimized enough must have (I hope) some programming notions, therefore they are welcome to point out the flaws and correct them.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475795.0

Ok sure i hear you, but of course not everyone can code a miner that is more efficient than the standard one. Let me ask you this... is it very unlikely or near impossible that someone has coded a more efficient miner? are you ruling out the possibility?

Also what do you say to the summary so far that seems to indicate QRK is as good if not superior to x11 ?  do you disagree with this? do you feel they are too similar to say which is better at this time?

 do you agree their could be weaknesses with having too many algos? is there advantage to QRK's being random over x11 sequential. What are you opinions on this?

I personally though scryptN was more asic resistant than both, however if there really is an asic for scryptN already that is kind of causing me to rethink on that.

[Ryota]

Come on coders help us understand.... is x11 a good thing or a marketing joke.

What about x15 if we throw another 4 algos in?  is that better?

Is it better to have them random or sequential in the chain?

X11 is not asic resistance, it's pure marketing hype, but the economic incentive to build ASICs for X11 or other algos (except sha256 & scrypt) doesn't exist, so if the price and the market stay low, there will be never asic.

[cryptohunter]

Come on coders help us understand.... is x11 a good thing or a marketing joke.

What about x15 if we throw another 4 algos in?  is that better?

Is it better to have them random or sequential in the chain?

X11 is not asic resistance, it's pure marketing hype, but the economic incentive to build ASICs for X11 or other algos (except sha256 & scrypt) doesn't exist, so if the price and the market stay low, there will be never asic.

I agree this could be very true... however if all coins start to switch to x11... i think they may be motivated to start with x11 asics. What about the 1.8GH and 1.2GH miners on the x11 pools?  do you think it was just a giant gpu farm? let's hope there is not already x11 asics since now someone posted a link to scryptN asics coming out... it seems there would be nowhere left for gpu miners if all these collapse to asic pressure.

[Spoetnik]

X11 is rather straightforward, there are some caveats inside hash functions, but for well known hashes it would be just concatenation of published implementations.
For Quark algorithm one can implement 9 hashing stages, 3 of them will be paired - e.g. calculate Keccak and JH in parallel, then discard one of results. Or, to save die space, it's possible to implement 6 hashing cores and some dispatching and routing logic around them.

Can you comment:

With sufficient funding, how long would it take to roll out usable ASICs based on a multi algo concept?

Do you think you can hold up to AMD and nVidia? They are not gonna miss that boat for very much longer.
Not only for crypto hashing, but for any kind of a custom instruction set for scientific applications.
They are not sleeping on trees.

Would a well meant ASIC be able to keep up with a 3000 stream GPU doing a custom program?
The noise of my GPU cards just said: NO!

you should tell your roaring gpu's to google search what "FPGA" means

edit:
@rumlazy i have been saying that too for a while and trying to see what people say.
and one guy on another site insisted it's not as simple as that actually.
i can't remember the tech details he posted but he explained that it would not be enough to tack on more memory to asics
because of how the asics work AND how they access and use memory i think.
I had originally said well memory is cheap so seems like an easy issue right ? add more memory then scrypt-n is now asic minable.
but he was rather convincing and sure as hell knew in remarkable detail how asics work under the hood specifically in ways i barely understand.
And the guy said no.. that won't be enough, simply adding more ram.
Either way i don't know but that guy was very convincing with his knowledge of how asics work.

i also am not sure tacking on memory still make it possible to jump from mining scrypt-n to normal scrypt either.
someone from the scrypt-n dev team(s) should address this stuff not me lol
i had thought the same but now i am not so convinced..