Armed Feds Prepare For Showdown With Nevada Cattle Rancher

[tvbcof]

Couple of articles from my neck of the woods just popped up:

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2014/05/oregon_grazing_fee_story_gener.html

http://www.statesmanjournal.com/story/news/2014/05/12/oregon-ranchers-pay-federal-grazing-fees/9006793/

...
Simply put, Bundy probably wouldn't want these readers on a jury if he is back in court. A sampling:
...

Also of note, the picture of the cow grazing in national forest is in one of our least hospitable counties.   Malheur county does have worse land and a genuine, if small, Laurence-of-Arabia style desert along with chronic water problems.  (The Alvord desert is kind of a neat place if anyone is traveling around out in these parts.)  Even so, the contrast between the graze in that pic and what we see in the SW deserts is notable.

I live near the coast.  In my area we have year-round green grass so it is good for dairy.  Someone with 160 acres of semi-flat ground would truly be "shit'n in high cotton" as we say.  Most of the flat ground is in river valleys where the soil is vaguely fertile (unlike my land which is only really good for timber.)

This brings me back to my point that the SW desert ranchers are probably impacted more adversely by the laws of nature than by the likes of the BLM.  If it takes 600,000 acres to sustain a family, that doesn't scale well.  And if they cannot make it with the 600,000 acres at the highly subsidized $1.60 rate, it might simply be the wrong business to be in given the local conditions.  Again, bovids were not native to a lot of these areas, and for good reason.

Cliven's dad from whom the current Bundy's inherited the farm tried cattle briefly in the 1950's, then quite.  The farm itself and water rights from the Virgin river are about 1000 times better than what most people have.  By all appearances Cliven is an obstinate fool and a poor manager.  Even if it might have been possible to eek out an existence at one time by destroying half a million acres of someone else's land, times change as populations, understandings of ecology, and various priorities shift around.  Cliven should have sucked it up and moved on like countless others have had to do through history (including my family.)  This especially since it was he himself made the poor decision in the 1970's that he wanted to be a big-time rancher.

[AnonyMint]

At the risk of sounding like Anonymint's flunkey to Martin Amstrongs Messiah, I guesstimate that most readers here think that they have read more sense in one paragraph of tvbcof's posts on this subject than all the ad nauseam, ceaseless, charlatan, bullshit, vacuity posing as metaphor, spam of a thousand of Anonymints "keep your hands off my stash" pish postings  .

Create a poll and prove it. Otherwise you are just blowing hot air out of your British arse.

[AnonyMint]

solarion is a notably clairvoyant writer on this issue. His recent summaries are more astute than mine. Thanks.

My talent is more focused in the abstract mathematical realm. I've noted solarion doesn't yet understand why PoS is incorrect (and I don't have time to gather all my past points for him at this time to try to convince him), which is an exhibit that my intellect is higher in that realm (or perhaps I've just spent more time analyzing PoW vs. PoS). Whereas, his verbal IQ is appears to be higher than mine (or perhaps he just has more patience in this realm than I do).

[solarion]

solarion is a notably clairvoyant writer on this issue. His recent summaries are more astute than mine. Thanks.

My talent is more focused in the abstract mathematical realm. I've noted solarion doesn't yet understand why PoS is incorrect (and I don't have time to gather all my past points for him at this time to try to convince him), which is an exhibit that my intellect is higher in that realm (or perhaps I've just spent more time analyzing PoW vs. PoS). Whereas, his verbal IQ is appears to be higher than mine (or perhaps he just has more patience in this realm than I do).

Well thanks...and GFY.

I understand your problems with PoS. As I said, I share some of your concerns. I have diversified my own wealth into many different directions in an effort to avoid fiat to every extent that is possible. I also like Bitcoin & silver bullion though I know you do not like the former.

With regard to our inconsistent friend here, I stopped reading his posts several pages ago, but I have little trouble recalling the things that were said and reconciling them with new information.

[tvbcof]

...
With regard to our inconsistent friend here, I stopped reading his posts several pages ago, but I have little trouble recalling the things that were said and reconciling them with new information.

Poor Sol.  Cannot take 'yes' for an answer.  I'm sometimes inconsistent, and even more I often appear that way.  Call it 'relativism' if you like.  I've explained the phenomenon (which is by no means unique to me) already and it's kind of boring and tedious waste of time to repeat it constantly.

One more quick example anyway.  I have a car that I like pretty well.  Always starts, gets good mileage, etc.  But it doesn't have power door locks.  I'm not going to run it off a cliff and get another one because of that deficiency.  It would be expensive, inefficient, dangerous, and there is a damn good chance that the replacement would have even more serious defects.  So, I take care to look at the little button on the passenger door to see if it is red when I go shopping.  Maybe someday I'll retro-fit electric door locks or something, but probably not.  If my car gets stolen or wrecked I'll take care of this inconsistency in perfection when I get my next one.

[practicaldreamer]

At the risk of sounding like Anonymint's flunkey to Martin Amstrongs Messiah, I guesstimate that most readers here think that they have read more sense in one paragraph of tvbcof's posts on this subject than all the ad nauseam, ceaseless, charlatan, bullshit, vacuity posing as metaphor, spam of a thousand of Anonymints "keep your hands off my stash" pish postings  .

Create a poll and prove it.

The problem with that is that there are those amongst us who have created several accounts here - and no doubt would utilise them in a poll. This would render the poll null and void.
  I seem to remember you did the same on the Eric Raymond forum you so enthuse about ?

Sad man.

[AnonyMint]

At the risk of sounding like Anonymint's flunkey to Martin Amstrongs Messiah, I guesstimate that most readers here think that they have read more sense in one paragraph of tvbcof's posts on this subject than all the ad nauseam, ceaseless, charlatan, bullshit, vacuity posing as metaphor, spam of a thousand of Anonymints "keep your hands off my stash" pish postings  .

Create a poll and prove it.

The problem with that is that there are those amongst us who have created several accounts here - and no doubt would utilise them in a poll. This would render the poll null and void.
  I seem to remember you did the same on the Eric Raymond forum you so enthuse about ?

Sad man.

Socialists can never admit they are wrong.

Piss off you fucking loser piece of shit.

[TECSHARE]

How come no one has discussed Harry Reid's deal with a Chinese solar company allowing it to operate via setting this disputed grazing land aside as a natural preserve and ecological "balancing" effect to even out the ecological damage of a huge solar farm?

[AnonyMint]

How come no one has discussed Harry Reid's deal with a Chinese solar company allowing it to operate via setting this disputed grazing land aside as a natural preserve and ecological "balancing" effect to even out the ecological damage of a huge solar farm?

I think that accusation was debunked.

[AnonyMint]

...
With regard to our inconsistent friend here, I stopped reading his posts several pages ago, but I have little trouble recalling the things that were said and reconciling them with new information.

Poor Sol.  Cannot take 'yes' for an answer.  I'm sometimes inconsistent, and even more I often appear that way.  Call it 'relativism' if you like.  I've explained the phenomenon (which is by no means unique to me) already and it's kind of boring and tedious waste of time to repeat it constantly.

One more quick example anyway.  I have a car that I like pretty well.  Always starts, gets good mileage, etc.  But it doesn't have power door locks.  I'm not going to run it off a cliff and get another one because of that deficiency.  It would be expensive, inefficient, dangerous, and there is a damn good chance that the replacement would have even more serious defects.  So, I take care to look at the little button on the passenger door to see if it is red when I go shopping.  Maybe someday I'll retro-fit electric door locks or something, but probably not.  If my car gets stolen or wrecked I'll take care of this inconsistency in perfection when I get my next one.

And really proud of your "death by a thousand paper cuts" balancing act.

We Texans call that horse shit and talking out of both sides of your mouth. As we see practicaldreamer did above weaseling out of a call to come into touch with a hard reality.

Socialists live in their selfish "fuck me" world.

I suggest to all readers, opt-out of their financial system and let them fuck themselves.

Readers you should be looking for your opt-out solution.

[TECSHARE]

How come no one has discussed Harry Reid's deal with a Chinese solar company allowing it to operate via setting this disputed grazing land aside as a natural preserve and ecological "balancing" effect to even out the ecological damage of a huge solar farm?

I think that accusation was debunked.

How the fuck do you debunk a tentative deal, the status of which is most likely not even published? Just because the deal was off in 2013 doesn't mean they can't still make the deal. It more than likely means they got flack from environmental groups and had to step back until they could appease them with land mitigation. Interestingly enough I also found out there is quite a bit of oil in that area the BLM  just sold rights to. BLM owns about 80% of Nevada and pays the state nothing for these resources. Why would anyone be upset by these things? LOL

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/blm_library/tech_notes.Par.29872.File.dat/TN_444.pdf
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-20/martin-armstrong-asks-do-feds-really-own-land-nevada
http://m.shalereporter.com/industry/article_0de547ba-8ca4-11e2-ab4e-0019bb30f31a.html

[solarion]

...
With regard to our inconsistent friend here, I stopped reading his posts several pages ago, but I have little trouble recalling the things that were said and reconciling them with new information.

Poor Sol.  Cannot take 'yes' for an answer.  I'm sometimes inconsistent, and even more I often appear that way.  Call it 'relativism' if you like.  I've explained the phenomenon (which is by no means unique to me) already and it's kind of boring and tedious waste of time to repeat it constantly.

One more quick example anyway.  I have a car that I like pretty well.  Always starts, gets good mileage, etc.  But it doesn't have power door locks.  I'm not going to run it off a cliff and get another one because of that deficiency.  It would be expensive, inefficient, dangerous, and there is a damn good chance that the replacement would have even more serious defects.  So, I take care to look at the little button on the passenger door to see if it is red when I go shopping.  Maybe someday I'll retro-fit electric door locks or something, but probably not.  If my car gets stolen or wrecked I'll take care of this inconsistency in perfection when I get my next one.

And really proud of your "death by a thousand paper cuts" balancing act.

We Texans call that horse shit and talking out of both sides of your mouth. As we see practicaldreamer did above weaseling out of a call to come into touch with a hard reality.

Socialists live in their selfish "fuck me" world.

I suggest to all readers, opt-out of their financial system and let them fuck themselves.

Readers you should be looking for your opt-out solution.

lol

Guess tvbcof wasn't a fan of the fascist cash for clunkers program.

[tvbcof]

How come no one has discussed Harry Reid's deal with a Chinese solar company allowing it to operate via setting this disputed grazing land aside as a natural preserve and ecological "balancing" effect to even out the ecological damage of a huge solar farm?

I think that accusation was debunked.

How the fuck do you debunk a tentative deal, the status of which is most likely not even published? Just because the deal was off in 2013 doesn't mean they can't still make the deal. It more than likely means they got flack from environmental groups and had to step back until they could appease them with land mitigation. Interestingly enough I also found out there is quite a bit of oil in that area the BLM  just sold rights to. BLM owns about 80% of Nevada and pays the state nothing for these resources. Why would anyone be upset by these things? LOL

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/blm_library/tech_notes.Par.29872.File.dat/TN_444.pdf
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-20/martin-armstrong-asks-do-feds-really-own-land-nevada
http://m.shalereporter.com/industry/article_0de547ba-8ca4-11e2-ab4e-0019bb30f31a.html

Occam's razor suggests that in the case of the Bundy situation things are not all that complicated.  He's been a deadbeat for 20 years at least, and things have finally progressed to the point where there is some concrete action to finally put an end to it.  If there is a conspiracy to be found in this case, I'd start by trying to find out why Bundy got to mooch for that long.

Ironically, managing BLM land for grazing itself invalidates the 'pays the state nothing' argument.  It is done at a loss and to the direct benefit of (sometimes) local ranchers and the theorized benefit of the public at large so they can buy more hamburgers.  I personally am OK with that as one of the factors driving land management decisions.  It is also the case that tourism and recreation are a large part of many smaller local economies.  And we have the BLM and other similar federal agencies to thank for managing the land in a way that makes that more feasible.

Should we keep an eye all deals involving the resources of public lands and those who are instrumental in formulating them?  Fuckin'A yes!  Certainly that includes Harry Reid.  Should we continue to pound on a dead horse when a chain of conspiracy toward a particular action is at best highly tenuous and highly political?  Not so much.

It is entirely likely that there are machinations involving solar energy, environmental group appeasement, and future mitigation agreements.  I don't see this as a necessarily bad thing.  I expect the BLM to make land use decisions which consider their large holdings as a related system.  I want them to choose areas which are less sensitive for destruction and use more sensitive and unique areas for ecological preservation.

I don't want the BLM to be funneling money to their political friends even if they are doing a good job otherwise , and again, that should be monitored.  What I really don't want is for the Koch brothers to turn vast areas into sludge ponds through oil shale operations and destroy the limited water resources by fracking.  Particularly since their modus operandi is the same as those who came before them.  Keep all the profits (many of them subsidies from my pocket thanks to lobbying) and abandon the works as a super-fund site when it has been milked dry.  That is a much better reason to keep a close eye on the politicians outside the BLM and the managers within the BLM.  And groups and efforts sponsored by groups like Citizens United.

[RodeoX]

Last time I checked liberals don't often support guns, militias, farmers, or southerners really. You are trying to make your square biases fit into a round hole.

Check again. This time don't drink that tea they give you. The idea of liberal and conservative is the wool that is put before our eyes to hide the truth. For if the truth came out and people discovered we are all fighting the same monied interests they would fall. People are complicated and rarely buy into a set of disconnected beliefs despite what political fundraisers would like us to think.
I have ethical problems with abortion, carry a gun every day, love the south, am involved with CSA farming, despise laws that limit my freedom in any way. You know, a liberal.  

[practicaldreamer]

..despise laws that limit my freedom in any way.  

Its an interesting thread this one, for various reasons. But I think in a sense what you have written above gets to the crux of it in some way.

In the UK there is a saying - "The punctual have to pay the price for the tardy", and this is what came to my mind as I read your post.

My point being, is that even if/though you may be a responsible citizen and so are able to use the freedom accorded to you (by nature) for the betterment of both yourself and your community, we cannot say the same for everyone in this world. And, unfortunate as it might be for the likes of you and me, the laws of the nation have to, to a degree, be framed to compensate for those that would act irresponsibly - tvbcof made the point pretty succinctly with his childhood pop gun story  



    Short of a "moral eugenics" programme I don't see a way around this.

[solarion]

..despise laws that limit my freedom in any way.

Its an interesting thread this one, for various reasons. But I think in a sense what you have written above gets to the crux of it in some way.

In the UK there is a saying - "The punctual have to pay the price for the tardy", and this is what came to my mind as I read your post.

My point being, is that even if/though you may be a responsible citizen and so are able to use the freedom accorded to you (by nature) for the betterment of both yourself and your community, we cannot say the same for everyone in this world. And, unfortunate as it might be for the likes of you and me, the laws of the nation have to, to a degree, be framed to compensate for those that would act irresponsibly - tvbcof made the point pretty succinctly with his childhood pop gun story  



    Short of a "moral eugenics" programme I don't see a way around this.

IOW, freedom is the currency one must exchange for security?

TPTB have thought of that argument. Actually that's the argument employed by nearly every tyrannical regime throughout history. Your hero and I agree that the USG savagely attacked it's own people to encourage the masses to accept a reduction in their liberties, we differ only in how we choose to respond.

[practicaldreamer]

TPTB have thought of that argument.

That they might have thought of it - and that they might even have appropriated it as a means of safeguarding their own self interest, doesn't in itself make it an unsound principle though does it ?

The prince of darkness is a gentleman, yes - but what you gonna do ? Start robbing your Grandma ?

[solarion]

TPTB have thought of that argument.

That they might have thought of it - and that they might even have appropriated it as a means of safeguarding their own self interest, doesn't in itself make it an unsound principle though does it ?

Not at all. If you're a tyrannical government authority it's a proven winner. A whole lot of misguided and shortsighted peasants will even come out in support of surrendering liberties for security, some will even help attack those that are opposed *cough*tvbcof*cough*. Rogue governments are incentivized to keep the sheep afraid, divided, and dependent else the masses may realize who the real enemy is.

[AnonyMint]

..despise laws that limit my freedom in any way.  

Its an interesting thread this one, for various reasons. But I think in a sense what you have written above gets to the crux of it in some way.

In the UK there is a saying - "The punctual have to pay the price for the tardy", and this is what came to my mind as I read your post.

My point being, is that even if/though you may be a responsible citizen and so are able to use the freedom accorded to you (by nature) for the betterment of both yourself and your community, we cannot say the same for everyone in this world. And, unfortunate as it might be for the likes of you and me, the laws of the nation have to, to a degree, be framed to compensate for those that would act irresponsibly - tvbcof made the point pretty succinctly with his childhood pop gun story  



    Short of a "moral eugenics" programme I don't see a way around this.

Socialists always think they are righteous and all the problems that manifest from collectivism are due to the bad apples.

Thus they can't see it is collectivism ("the death by 1000 paper cuts") that causes the problems.

See my next post in the Mad Max thread later today which will elaborate.

[TECSHARE]

How come no one has discussed Harry Reid's deal with a Chinese solar company allowing it to operate via setting this disputed grazing land aside as a natural preserve and ecological "balancing" effect to even out the ecological damage of a huge solar farm?

I think that accusation was debunked.

How the fuck do you debunk a tentative deal, the status of which is most likely not even published? Just because the deal was off in 2013 doesn't mean they can't still make the deal. It more than likely means they got flack from environmental groups and had to step back until they could appease them with land mitigation. Interestingly enough I also found out there is quite a bit of oil in that area the BLM  just sold rights to. BLM owns about 80% of Nevada and pays the state nothing for these resources. Why would anyone be upset by these things? LOL

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/blm_library/tech_notes.Par.29872.File.dat/TN_444.pdf
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-20/martin-armstrong-asks-do-feds-really-own-land-nevada
http://m.shalereporter.com/industry/article_0de547ba-8ca4-11e2-ab4e-0019bb30f31a.html

Occam's razor suggests that in the case of the Bundy situation things are not all that complicated.  He's been a deadbeat for 20 years at least, and things have finally progressed to the point where there is some concrete action to finally put an end to it.  If there is a conspiracy to be found in this case, I'd start by trying to find out why Bundy got to mooch for that long.

Ironically, managing BLM land for grazing itself invalidates the 'pays the state nothing' argument.  It is done at a loss and to the direct benefit of (sometimes) local ranchers and the theorized benefit of the public at large so they can buy more hamburgers.  I personally am OK with that as one of the factors driving land management decisions.  It is also the case that tourism and recreation are a large part of many smaller local economies.  And we have the BLM and other similar federal agencies to thank for managing the land in a way that makes that more feasible.

Should we keep an eye all deals involving the resources of public lands and those who are instrumental in formulating them?  Fuckin'A yes!  Certainly that includes Harry Reid.  Should we continue to pound on a dead horse when a chain of conspiracy toward a particular action is at best highly tenuous and highly political?  Not so much.

It is entirely likely that there are machinations involving solar energy, environmental group appeasement, and future mitigation agreements.  I don't see this as a necessarily bad thing.  I expect the BLM to make land use decisions which consider their large holdings as a related system.  I want them to choose areas which are less sensitive for destruction and use more sensitive and unique areas for ecological preservation.

I don't want the BLM to be funneling money to their political friends even if they are doing a good job otherwise , and again, that should be monitored.  What I really don't want is for the Koch brothers to turn vast areas into sludge ponds through oil shale operations and destroy the limited water resources by fracking.  Particularly since their modus operandi is the same as those who came before them.  Keep all the profits (many of them subsidies from my pocket thanks to lobbying) and abandon the works as a super-fund site when it has been milked dry.  That is a much better reason to keep a close eye on the politicians outside the BLM and the managers within the BLM.  And groups and efforts sponsored by groups like Citizens United.

Yes because everyone knows bankers and politicians never get together to conspire about how best to fuck the public. That is way too far fetched. So your saying upkeep of a desert costs more than they'll acquire selling land, oil, and mineral rights? That makes sense, but hey, why bother confirming anything when you can just state your personal opinions as if they are fact?