Armed Feds Prepare For Showdown With Nevada Cattle Rancher

[tvbcof]

Militiamen move on from Bundy fight to next battle with BLM - Sheriffs in Utah standing with Militia against BLM
http://m.lvsun.com/news/2014/may/09/militiamen-move-bundy-fight-next-battle-blm/

Militiamen and woman camping on Cliven Bundy’s cattle ranch are packing up and heading to Utah where another protest against the Bureau of Land Management will happen Saturday.

Ryan Payne, a Montana resident who had been staying at the ranch for a month, said he drove eight hours to arrive in the eastern Utah town this morning. Three militia members from the ranch and a handful of people from a group called Citizens Action Network came to Utah, too, he said.

"This is where it’s happening Saturday,” he said.

They and others Saturday will be armed, he said, and ride ATVs into Recapture Canyon, an area the BLM declared off-limits to motorized vehicles in 2007. The ride is organized by San Juan County, Utah, Commissioner Phil Lyman.

Payne met Friday morning with the San Juan County, Utah, Sheriff Rick Eldridge. Afterward, he said he expects Saturday’s protest to be peaceful because Eldridge pledged to “protect us from the BLM.”

Payne characterized their discussion, saying Eldridge has contacted other sheriff’s departments who “stated that if he needed support to get the BLM out of there, they would help.”

Sorry to break the news to you, but that is over.  You know what happend?  Nothing.  It was obviously and adolescent tantrum and everyone including the BLM just shrugged.  Bummer, eh?

---

OTOH...maybe we've got the feds quaking in their boots, on the ropes, and ready to collapse!  If we all just head on down to DC this thing could be over and rapture will be upon us!

  http://operationamericanspring.org/

10 MILLION true American Patriots and you could be among them.  Our grandchildren will sing great songs about us.  Let's roll!  Go! Go! Go!

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[AnonyMint]

Computers don't forget.

Of course they do.

NSA doesn't wipe its computers in Utah. Google doesn't wipe its server farms of data they are required to retain. Etc.

[tvbcof]

Computers don't forget.

Of course they do.

NSA doesn't wipe its computers in Utah. Google doesn't wipe its server farms of data they are required to retain. Etc.

None of these systems ever had my private keys.  Or at least not in an intelligible form.

[AnonyMint]

Get your head out of your ass and read about the history Mindanao where I am now, and the tribes in the mountains of Luzon.

Mindanao? Patriarchy has been created 10'000 years ago. Anarchy died 10'000 years ago.

We were talking about tribal warfare. Don't change the topic.

I've never written such a thing. I said people are rising up because they don't feel represented. I never said I prefer to replace it with a representative government. Instead I've written that democracy is always a power vacuum and thus always ends up where we are now.

Anonymint, the collectivst wrote that there is nothing wrong with local governements and that the global one is the only problem.

I never wrote that. I said that given a choice between global and local government, I prefer return of control to local government. You can see from my last quote below that I understand any form of collectivist government is subject to the power vacuum of vested interests. However at least the tribal local government was within the human's Dunbar limit and thus it was nearly impossible to do corruption without everyone in the tribe knowing it on a personal basis.

Quote me exactly:

FWIW, I personally believe that it is generally better that states control most of the non privately owned land within their jurisdictions.

No it is better if local government controls it. And if you don't understand why, then you don't understand a god damn thing about fitness. Try clicking my blog on my signature and see if you can learn a little bit of math.

Unfortunately we have kooks on the other side of the equation who have had recent success in halting even reasonable use of the forests

You fucking insane environmentalists go fuck a tree. I haven't forgotten your asinine post upthread about respecting the need to obtain a timber cutting permit.

Local communities should compete on how to manage resources, then clearly the best management will win and then optimum fitness will spread like a wave.

Generally I agree with the principle of political localization and autonomy.  There is a realistic limit to how much things can be localized since the resources available to a local government are limited.  There are also situations where problems and issues are geographically broad so localized political structures are inefficient (at best) to deal with them.  Certain ecological issues fit into this catagory for instance.

If for example, local communities can't form a pact on the shared use of a resource that binds them, e.g. a river, then they destroy each other and the more powerful one comes in and takes control over all.

Thus rational men will form pacts, while retaining autonomy on orthogonal issues, i.e. not marrying into one Federal fascist power corruption structure.

I'm fine with people doing more or less whatever they like on their own land.  Nobody has convinced me yet that anyone in the U.S. should have some sort of dynastic entitlement to almost anything, and certainly not the likes of Cliven Bundy.

Who should work that land then? The whole point is we want that land returned back to the local governments and then the local people decide what to do with their land. They can auction it off or whatever. Many competing locales, means the best practices eventually get copied and adopted. The others fail and default.

Now here is the very key point. Pay close attention.

If the people can't win on a local level, then it means any proposed solution will be supporting loss of local sovereignty. You simply can't amass resources collectively and avoid the corruption of the power vacuum of democracy. Understanding Mancur Olson's (in his book The Logic Of Collective Action) thesis is fundamental to understanding where we are and are headed:

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=984 (Some Iron Laws of Political Economics)

Thus you see the ultimate outcome of this country-by-country uprising is to turn over control to those who have the levers of control (over the power vacuum) in the wider-scale collective, e.g. the USA, EU, Russian bloc, subservient Asia bloc (China).

And you can thus see it will culminate with war and then ending war with socialist "international cooperation".

I'm aiming for a Knowledge Age, where each person is entirely free of governance and corporations.

That would be the first time in history, that such (labour dividing) perversion of the community would work. The communists also tried to pervert the community. The results of such hyper-collectivist experiments are well known.

Yeah because it would be first time we would own our knowledge and skills rather than being enslaved in stored capital and the manipulation of stored capital via the power vacuum of the collective.

And it will economically defeat your idea of burning all the books and returning to a subsistence existence (which btw was not resilient to Ice Ages, 7 year droughts, etc, which is one reason we were forced to increase our technology in order to survive).

My disagreement with you is you are conflating things. You think technology can only exist with governance and corporations. I think technology can exist and boost individual prosperity in an anarchistic manner.

You instead want everyone to remain a caveman without any technology. You better get rid of the hunting bow and discovery of fire too.

Bullshit over and over again. Nomades never lived in caves. Neither in the past nor today.

Where they lived is irrelevant. 'Cavemen' is a metaphor for a very rudimentary standard-of-living.

[AnonyMint]

Computers don't forget.

Of course they do.

NSA doesn't wipe its computers in Utah. Google doesn't wipe its server farms of data they are required to retain. Etc.

None of these systems ever had my private keys.  Or at least not in an intelligible form.

They have record of your wealth, and that is enough to hang you up by your balls until your private keys fall off your tongue.

You can indeed be forced by law to reveal your secrets.

The point is every one of us is breaking several Federal (or EU) laws every day.

If you have assets, they know it, and the bankrupted world is coming after you:

The International Forecaster

World Markets Update

by James Corbett
corbettreport.com
May 3, 2014
 

Switzerland and Singapore are the latest signatories to an OECD deal on sharing data
and tax information between countries that now includes 47 nations. The deal, pushed
in recent years by the G20, forces signatory nations to share a wide range of
financial information including bank balances, interest income, sales proceeds and
dividends. Ostensibly a plan to crack down on tax evasion by multinationals and the
global elite, it is actually part of that very elite's plan for a global
governmental system based on complete transparency of every individuals' economic
(and other) activities. This is of course a key stepping stone on the path to the
implementation of a truly global tax, an idea that has already been kicked around
for some years at the UN and other globalist bodies.

[tvbcof]

They have record of your wealth, and that is enough to hang you up by your balls until your private keys fall off your tongue.

You can indeed be forced by law to reveal your secrets.

Untrue.  If it is physically impossible to rubber-hose info out of someone, that will not occur.  That's why Snowden didn't bring anything along with him when he went to Russia.

Anyone rubber-hosing a person for wealth is almost certain to kill him when the wealth is extracted.  If the wealth is not extracted because it is physically impossible, then they have an option to kill him or not.  In a lot of cases, killing someone carries some risks so a logical course of action would be to walk away.

I've arranged my defenses to be more against the current criminal class than against state sponsored attacks since the former is much more possible in the short-to-mid term, but these defenses apply to state sponsored attacks as well.

The point is every one of us is breaking several Federal (or EU) laws every day.

If you have assets, they know it, and the bankrupted world is coming after you:

The International Forecaster

World Markets Update

by James Corbett
corbettreport.com
May 3, 2014
 
Switzerland and Singapore are the latest signatories to an OECD deal on sharing data
and tax information between countries that now includes 47 nations. The deal, pushed
in recent years by the G20, forces signatory nations to share a wide range of
financial information including bank balances, interest income, sales proceeds and
dividends. Ostensibly a plan to crack down on tax evasion by multinationals and the
global elite, it is actually part of that very elite's plan for a global
governmental system based on complete transparency of every individuals' economic
(and other) activities. This is of course a key stepping stone on the path to the
implementation of a truly global tax, an idea that has already been kicked around
for some years at the UN and other globalist bodies.

Well, if you have wealth that you scammed or stole, or are you are a criminal due to tax avoidance, then I can see how you would be especially concerned in the here and now.  I'm not in that category.

I'm not actually all that worried about extreme abuse and theft by the governments for people in my category because if that were systematic then it wold imply that a large percentage of the population were being abused in a similar manner.  That is unsustainable from a political point of view under any likely political system.

OTOH, under some sort of a local war-lord quasi-anarchy system like you SC/PC folks dream of, such abuse would be the norm.  I just don't believe that there is much chance that we'll ever see that.  And if so, I'll be long gone for the short time that it persists.

[tvbcof]

Next on the agenda:

  http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/11/the-feds-next-land-fight-new-mexico-ranchers-anger/

This has the potential to turn into a rather amusing pattern:

 - Take some fairly reasonable action (e.g., charge grazing fees, protect archaeological sites, preserve diminishing water resources (which have nothing to do with climate change of course...))

 - Wait for some idiot, or cluster of said, to do something stupid and illegal.

 - Allow observers to ridicule idiots for being stupid and unreasonable.

 - Strip idiots of their possessions due to the illegal nature of their actions.

Boo-hoo if Bundy, for instance, loses everything he's got as far as I'm concerned.  That's what happens to jackasses.  Same with the knuckle-dragers and their power-ranger ATV toys and bang-bang sticks.

I'll look forward to picking up another ATV at the government auction to add to my collection, and am very pleased that the wannabe-warrior militia loons will be dis-armed.  And maybe if they need to be incarcerated some of the non-violent drug offenders from the phony 'war on drugs' will be released to make room.

[TECSHARE]

Next on the agenda:

  http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/11/the-feds-next-land-fight-new-mexico-ranchers-anger/

This has the potential to turn into a rather amusing pattern:

 - Take some fairly reasonable action (e.g., charge grazing fees, protect archaeological sites, preserve diminishing water resources (which have nothing to do with climate change of course...))

 - Wait for some idiot, or cluster of said, to do something stupid and illegal.

 - Allow observers to ridicule idiots for being stupid and unreasonable.

 - Strip idiots of their possessions due to the illegal nature of their actions.

Boo-hoo if Bundy, for instance, loses everything he's got as far as I'm concerned.  That's what happens to jackasses.  Same with the knuckle-dragers and their power-ranger ATV toys and bang-bang sticks.

I'll look forward to picking up another ATV at the government auction to add to my collection, and am very pleased that the wannabe-warrior militia loons will be dis-armed.  And maybe if they need to be incarcerated some of the non-violent drug offenders from the phony 'war on drugs' will be released to make room.

    First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.

    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

         -Martin Niemöller

[tvbcof]

    First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- ...

Ya, ya, that old chestnut.  I've heard it 1000 times (and once or twice on this very thread as I recall.)  Yawn.

They 'came for me' twice recently.  Last year 'they' told me I could not run my excavator without fire fighting equipment and a spark arrested.  This year they told me I had to leave tens of thousands of dollars worth of trees on my own property to help protect a river.

You know what I said?  I said "That's cool."

Somehow I just don't get off on working myself up into some raging sense of victimization.  I guess I don't watch enough Fox News perhaps.

[TECSHARE]

    First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- ...

Ya, ya, that old chestnut.  I've heard it 1000 times (and once or twice on this very thread as I recall.)  Yawn.

They 'came for me' twice recently.  Last year 'they' told me I could not run my excavator without fire fighting equipment and a spark arrested.  This year they told me I had to leave tens of thousands of dollars worth of trees on my own property to help protect a river.

You know what I said?  I said "That's cool."

Somehow I just don't get off on working myself up into some raging sense of victimization.  I guess I don't watch enough Fox News perhaps.

You know what is funniest about this? If you own that much land you are now next on the list of targets for consumption. The middle class has been consumed. You think you are part of the boys club. You aren't. Your surprise is coming soon.

[AnonyMint]

Untrue.  If it is physically impossible to rubber-hose info out of someone, that will not occur.  That's why Snowden didn't bring anything along with him when he went to Russia.

Then they can kill you since you are useless to them, as they did to those who refused to work in the concentration camps under Hitler, Mao, Stalin, etc..

Tangentially, the technology for directly tapping the brain is advancing.

I've arranged my defenses to be more against the current criminal class than against state sponsored attacks since the former is much more possible in the short-to-mid term, but these defenses apply to state sponsored attacks as well.

You seem to be confused about who the big time criminals are.

Well, if you have wealth that you scammed or stole, or are you are a criminal due to tax avoidance, then I can see how you would be especially concerned in the here and now.  I'm not in that category.

Of course you are. Everyone with wealth is when the State is destitute. You fail to study the repeating pattern of history.

I'm not actually all that worried about extreme abuse and theft by the governments for people in my category because if that were systematic then it wold imply that a large percentage of the population were being abused in a similar manner.  That is unsustainable from a political point of view under any likely political system.

Unsustainability doesn't impede the megadeaths that occur before the chaos ends.

But much more likely in the nearer term, I simply expect them to raise taxes and confiscations of wealth above your breaking point.

OTOH, under some sort of a local war-lord quasi-anarchy system like you SC/PC folks dream of, such abuse would be the norm.  I just don't believe that there is much chance that we'll ever see that.  And if so, I'll be long gone for the short time that it persists.

Warlordism returns during Dark Ages.

I propose actually a Knowledge Age of individual ownership of knowledge (i.e. sovereign in the knowledge economy and virtually untaxable and untraceable to each person's physical identity), where there are no corporations and no warlords. The details were in the following thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557732.0

Boo-hoo if Bundy, for instance, loses everything he's got as far as I'm concerned.  That's what happens to jackasses.

Jackasses like you. The same ill will can apply to you too. You see how that works. Chaos is what you propose. You think by siding with the status quo of an elite criminal cabal that is enslaving us, that you are more reasonable.  

I think you fail to appreciate that the end game that repeats throughout history when we reach the point of government is 75% of GDP is never reasonable.

I guessetimate that most readers here think you are a jackass.

Try reading Matthew 7.

[tvbcof]

...
I guessetimate that most readers here think you are a jackass.
...

I'm certain of it.  This is the 'Politics & Society' board of 'bitcointalk.org' after all.  That bothers me not in the least.

[practicaldreamer]

At the risk of sounding like Anonymint's flunkey to Martin Amstrongs Messiah, I guesstimate that most readers here think that they have read more sense in one paragraph of tvbcof's posts on this subject than all the ad nauseam, ceaseless, charlatan, bullshit, vacuity posing as metaphor, spam of a thousand of Anonymints "keep your hands off my stash" pish postings  .

[solarion]

I guessetimate that most readers here think you are a jackass.

Totally.

The liberal mind seems to be a very simple and unscientific closed loop. For instance most liberals support keynesian economic theory, which is a proven failure, yet their answer tends to be more more more until it "works". If there's a problem, then government has to fix it, usually with more bumbling intervention, even if it's bumbling .gov intervention into free markets that caused the problem to begin with. Cue nancy piglosi claiming that US tax dollars wasted on food stamps results in net GDP growth.

This particular liberal mind accepts that government in the US is corrupt at the highest levels and capable of unspeakable acts of terrorism against it's own citizenry(9/11), yet he sides with them vs those "bad" red team guys. He says we should watch the government parasites closely because they're crooks, but then acknowledges that there's no real way to do so since they've got their claws into everything...but we should trust them anyway. Really weird.

I guesstimate that most readers here think that they have read more sense in one paragraph of tvbcof's posts on this subject than all the ad nauseam, ceaseless, charlatan, bullshit, vacuity posing as metaphor, spam of a thousand of Anonymints "keep your hands off my stash" pish postings  .

Just don't read two of tvbcof's allegedly sensible paragraphs in a row, or you may soon discover that his only consistent trait is that he's remarkably inconsistent. He claims to be a prepper that seems to see nothing that's worth standing up for and he seems to despise people who do.  

[tvbcof]

You know what is funniest about this? If you own that much land you are now next on the list of targets for consumption. The middle class has been consumed. You think you are part of the boys club. You aren't. Your surprise is coming soon.

Firstly, I'm under no pretenses about being in some sort of a rich club.  I have more land than most, but economically it is not especially valuable.  I am and always have been allergic to debt so I may not qualify as 'middle class', but that is mostly because the term is kind of misleading.  Anyone who is in debt (in the typical conception of the idea) is closer to slave status in my opinion.

From an engineering standpoint, one can hold onto something if it is more expensive and difficult to take it away than it is worth.  This principle may or may not be sufficient for me to hold onto my land based wealth going forward.  That depends a lot on what the future looks like.

If the scam to transfer public property into the Koch brothers pockets is successful then it is quite possible that there will be an eventual backlash resulting in forceful stripping if wealth from landowners.  And I might get caught up in it as collateral damage.  Probably such a thing will not occur within my lifetime though.

[TECSHARE]

Last time I checked liberals don't often support guns, militias, farmers, or southerners really. You are trying to make your square biases fit into a round hole.

[tvbcof]

Untrue.  If it is physically impossible to rubber-hose info out of someone, that will not occur.  That's why Snowden didn't bring anything along with him when he went to Russia.

...
Tangentially, the technology for directly tapping the brain is advancing.

This is probably actually true.  The information available to the public about the advances is interesting, and the publicly available information in such fields tends to significantly lag that which is not.

The trick is to keep a 'path' in one's mind.  And try to make sure that obstacles along that path are are especially challenging for the likely adversaries.

As a for instance, a pass-phrase is effectively the weenie.  The knowledge that a pass-phase is in a safe deposit box which a crook will have difficulty accessing makes a theft far more complicated and risky.  So, don't memorize a pass-phrase.  And if said pass-phrase is 64 random characters, that is easy enough to do.

The above example assumes a common criminal as the threat, but permutations and nestings of the general scheme are applicable to thwart or at least drastically complicate state-sponsored appropriations as well.  And as long as one maintains reasonable control, one can re-cast one's defenses with relative ease.

[solarion]

Last time I checked liberals don't often support guns, militias, farmers, or southerners really.

Agreed.

However, this one claims to support the 2nd amendment(and claims to be a gun owner), but seemingly hates it when people exercise their 2nd Amendment rights. He also called for the militia members on Bundy's property to be stripped of their 2nd Amendment rights.  

He plainly despises militia, though I suspect we could get him to acknowledge the militia's Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms...and assemble. Basically, he seems to be a fan of HIS Constitutional rights.

I thought he said he WAS a farmer?

Is Nevada southern? I never think of it that way, but he obviously dislikes the Bundy clan, so perhaps he considers them southerners. Then again I thought he mentioned residing in Texas, which is plainly more southern than Nevada. I suspect in this case it's not so much anti-southern as it is a pro-team blue mindset that sets our hero off.

I put him on ignore after several contradictions he refused to address, so I may have missed some bs since.  

[tvbcof]

Last time I checked liberals don't often support guns, militias, farmers, or southerners really.

Agreed.

However, this one claims to support the 2nd amendment(and claims to be a gun owner), but seemingly hates it when people exercise their 2nd Amendment rights. He also called for the militia members on Bundy's property to be stripped of their 2nd Amendment rights.  

He plainly despises militia, though I suspect we could get him to acknowledge the militia's Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms...and assemble. Basically, he seems to be a fan of HIS Constitutional rights.

I thought he said he WAS a farmer?

Is Nevada southern? I never think of it that way, but he obviously dislikes the Bundy clan, so perhaps he considers them southerners. Then again I thought he mentioned residing in Texas, which is plainly more southern than Nevada. I suspect in this case it's not so much anti-southern as it is a pro-team blue mindset that sets our hero off.

I put him on ignore after several contradictions he refused to address, so I may have missed some bs since.  

Here's a little story.  When I was 6 or 7 my daddy got me one of those ubiquitous Daisy BB-guns.  Within a few days one of my step-sisters had a little red dot on her ass and was screaming bloody murder.  I wasn't even the one who pulled the trigger.  My dad bent the BB-gun into a pretzel and threw it into the river.  That was a traumatic event and had a big impact on my philosophies about a lot of things which persist to this day.  When a got a 22 some years later I treated it with a lot more respect and considered my actions with more care.

You see, there is nothing wrong with losing one's rights to anything if one cannot act responsibly.  The most fundamental rights (Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness) are not immune constitutionally, legally, morally, ethical, functionally, etc.  Society has dictated that one doesn't brandish weapons and use them for intimidation except under very unusual circumstances.  It's incumbent on those exercising their rights under the 2nd to be aware of the conditions under which those rights exist.

The militia clowns stepped WELL over the line of what is appropriate in exercising their 2nd rights.  Now they will pay.  For my part I consider it just a matter of time before most of them do something like the Bundy stuff, and they've probably gotten away with being bozos in the past (intimidating their family, neighbors, etc.)  Thus, I am utterly delighted to see the book thrown at them.  If the govt takes out the trash now it's less we'll have to deal with later if, by chance, we do get into a SHTF situation.  Unless the government re-arms them and puts them to work which is quite possible.

 - edit:

BTW, I live in the Pacific Northwest.  I lived in Texas for a while when I was in the military.  Technically I have a tree-farm but don't currently make any money on it nor do I use it as a tax write-off in a significant way and probably never will.  I am active in managing my resources and using my sawmill and such (when not wasting time in the Internet) but it's mostly just for fun.

I don't care for childish ignorance and a 'might makes right' mentality and to the extent that that is more common among some classes (politically, socio-economically, etc) I do have a distinct prejudiced.  I live among 'backward hicks' and in many ways am one myself.  It is the environment in which I spend a significant amount of time in growing up and how I choose to live at the present time.  I've also lived and worked in professional urban environments with people from all over the world.  I understand that every class of society has differing factions of the same basic types of people.

A large contingent of people who live in rural environments are reasonable, ethical, and trustworthy people, and I know this for a fact.  Even a fair fraction of those who might be drawn to militia movements are in this basic category in my best estimate.  But that does not give them an excuse for acting stupid.

I am also keenly aware of the types of relationships and corruptions that can and do happen on a local level.  I'm surprised when a local fire chief does NOT end up with goodies from a government auction in his own garage...and a majority of the local community thinking that that is A-OK.  This is a distinct factor in my conceptions of exactly how much localization is appropriate in the balances required to form a well functioning government system.

[tvbcof]

http://www.westernjournalism.com/blm-prepares-arrest-protesters-utah/

I'm not sure where 'arrest' came from, but if that is possible then I, for one, am all for it.  Certainly the kids should have their toys taken away.

It is amusing to note that the event organizer (and county commissioner) Phil Lyman's momma didn't raise no fool;  He himself didn't break the law and go riding through the canyon of course.