[Ann] Safecoin maidsafecoin

[Chang Hum]

Craig,

-Your reply clarifies a major point I've overlooked, that I'm surprised wasn't answered when David Irvine was pressed for questions on his thread.
Since it’s easier and more straightforward to particpate in the Crowdsale using BTC, it’s a reasonable assumption that the majority of particpants will be using BTC to participate.  Your statement “over inflated launch price” seems to imply your bias in this case, anyway.  The market sets these prices, even at the launch.  

Quote from: Chang Hum on Today at 04:47:50 PM
Bold part 2 again confirming the bizarre claim about issuance in the first quote

Since the protocol uses MSC to decide how many MSAFE to generate, this should be obvious.

Wow that is mind blowing you've confirmed that mastercoin really does work in this way I assumed it must have been a mistake by David Irvine.

Wait, can anyone who is familiar with MSC confirm this?  Is this how MSC works?

So everytime there is a large asset issuance on MSC, an ungodly amount of MSC needs to be acquired?  And I guess I didn't catch this part but where does the MSC that is used to create MSAFE go?  I assume it doesn't disappear, and it can't be going back to the maidsafe guys because why then why would they even need a large MSC loan?  They can just keep reusing the same MSC.

Off to the mastercoin forums to read up on how it handles asset issuance until someone can explain this to me like I am a 5 year old.

The more I know about MSC, the more I become a believer that XCP will overtake it one day.  It may not have the marketing and funds that MSC has, but the fundamentals seem way more solid.  But I am not trying to turn this into a discussion on XCP.  Not that that should stop you from immediately running out to buy a few hundred, or thousand, whatever floats your boat

This whole ideas so floored it's satirical, The IPO will be cancelled before 1 day and 17 hours or I'll lose all faith in human nature.

So everytime there is a large asset issuance on MSC, an ungodly amount of MSC needs to be acquired?  

and the price fixing will work so well with two assets at the same time  

And I guess I didn't catch this part but where does the MSC that is used to create MSAFE go?

It gets stripped of all value by the lucky mastercoin holders who can sell into the over-inflated and fixed fundraiser

I assume it doesn't disappear, and it can't be going back to the maidsafe guys because why then why would they even need a large MSC loan?  They can just keep reusing the same MSC.

Good point I presume it was a part of the con to trick him into this stupid arrangement, and to convince him he was likely to raise more Bitcoin than value stripped Mastercoin.

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[prophetx]

Craig,

-Your reply clarifies a major point I've overlooked, that I'm surprised wasn't answered when David Irvine was pressed for questions on his thread.
Since it’s easier and more straightforward to particpate in the Crowdsale using BTC, it’s a reasonable assumption that the majority of particpants will be using BTC to participate.  Your statement “over inflated launch price” seems to imply your bias in this case, anyway.  The market sets these prices, even at the launch.  

Quote from: Chang Hum on Today at 04:47:50 PM
Bold part 2 again confirming the bizarre claim about issuance in the first quote

Since the protocol uses MSC to decide how many MSAFE to generate, this should be obvious.

Wow that is mind blowing you've confirmed that mastercoin really does work in this way I assumed it must have been a mistake by David Irvine.

Wait, can anyone who is familiar with MSC confirm this?  Is this how MSC works?

So everytime there is a large asset issuance on MSC, an ungodly amount of MSC needs to be acquired?  And I guess I didn't catch this part but where does the MSC that is used to create MSAFE go?  I assume it doesn't disappear, and it can't be going back to the maidsafe guys because why then why would they even need a large MSC loan?  They can just keep reusing the same MSC.

Off to the mastercoin forums to read up on how it handles asset issuance until someone can explain this to me like I am a 5 year old.

The more I know about MSC, the more I become a believer that XCP will overtake it one day.  It may not have the marketing and funds that MSC has, but the fundamentals seem way more solid.  But I am not trying to turn this into a discussion on XCP.  Not that that should stop you from immediately running out to buy a few hundred, or thousand, whatever floats your boat

This whole ideas so floored it's satirical, The IPO will be cancelled before 1 day and 17 hours or I'll lose all faith in human nature.

So everytime there is a large asset issuance on MSC, an ungodly amount of MSC needs to be acquired?  

and the price fixing will work so well with two assets at the same time  

And I guess I didn't catch this part but where does the MSC that is used to create MSAFE go?

It gets stripped of all value by the lucky mastercoin holders who can sell into the over-inflated and fixed fundraiser

I assume it doesn't disappear, and it can't be going back to the maidsafe guys because why then why would they even need a large MSC loan?  They can just keep reusing the same MSC.

Good point I presume it was a part of the con to trick him into this stupid arrangement, and to convince him he was likely to raise more Bitcoin than value stripped Mastercoin.

so if you are wrong and the Maidsafe people are pleased with the outcome, can we see a video of you eating your socks for dinner?

[udecker]

This whole ideas so floored it's satirical, The IPO will be cancelled before 1 day and 17 hours or I'll lose all faith in human nature.

So everytime there is a large asset issuance on MSC, an ungodly amount of MSC needs to be acquired?  

and the price fixing will work so well with two assets at the same time  

And I guess I didn't catch this part but where does the MSC that is used to create MSAFE go?

It gets stripped of all value by the lucky mastercoin holders who can sell into the over-inflated and fixed fundraiser

I assume it doesn't disappear, and it can't be going back to the maidsafe guys because why then why would they even need a large MSC loan?  They can just keep reusing the same MSC.

Good point I presume it was a part of the con to trick him into this stupid arrangement, and to convince him he was likely to raise more Bitcoin than value stripped Mastercoin.

Chang, I hate to say it, but you’re missing an important point.  You are assuming malintent by at least one of the parties, when there is none.  No one is trying to out-game the market or anything of the sort.  MaidSafe wishes to raise money in a crowdsale of their tokens.  They have a target amount they wish to raise.  Mastercoin has a method to generate tokens based on the amount contributed.  Combine these two and you have a simple mechanism to do so.  No malintent.

If we wanted to make the price of MSC go to the moon, the loan wouldn’t have happened and all BTC buyers would’ve had to buy MSC at the market price.  Which would’ve kept going up and up (way beyond the 0.2 ratio).  This would’ve allowed for all of the nefarious actions you portend.  The current method *avoids* that. 

We’re trying to be good guys doing good things, and people keep claiming we’re doing the opposite.  If you don’t understand something, ask.  Everything we do is public and open-source.  If you don’t like a method, come in and provide a better one - we’ll take it.  Start believing that people are working to do the right thing with the tools available and the world becomes a much nicer place.

Craig

[Chang Hum]

Craig,

-Your reply clarifies a major point I've overlooked, that I'm surprised wasn't answered when David Irvine was pressed for questions on his thread.
Since it’s easier and more straightforward to particpate in the Crowdsale using BTC, it’s a reasonable assumption that the majority of particpants will be using BTC to participate.  Your statement “over inflated launch price” seems to imply your bias in this case, anyway.  The market sets these prices, even at the launch.  

Quote from: Chang Hum on Today at 04:47:50 PM
Bold part 2 again confirming the bizarre claim about issuance in the first quote

Since the protocol uses MSC to decide how many MSAFE to generate, this should be obvious.

Wow that is mind blowing you've confirmed that mastercoin really does work in this way I assumed it must have been a mistake by David Irvine.

Wait, can anyone who is familiar with MSC confirm this?  Is this how MSC works?

So everytime there is a large asset issuance on MSC, an ungodly amount of MSC needs to be acquired?  And I guess I didn't catch this part but where does the MSC that is used to create MSAFE go?  I assume it doesn't disappear, and it can't be going back to the maidsafe guys because why then why would they even need a large MSC loan?  They can just keep reusing the same MSC.

Off to the mastercoin forums to read up on how it handles asset issuance until someone can explain this to me like I am a 5 year old.

The more I know about MSC, the more I become a believer that XCP will overtake it one day.  It may not have the marketing and funds that MSC has, but the fundamentals seem way more solid.  But I am not trying to turn this into a discussion on XCP.  Not that that should stop you from immediately running out to buy a few hundred, or thousand, whatever floats your boat

This whole ideas so floored it's satirical, The IPO will be cancelled before 1 day and 17 hours or I'll lose all faith in human nature.

So everytime there is a large asset issuance on MSC, an ungodly amount of MSC needs to be acquired?  

and the price fixing will work so well with two assets at the same time  

And I guess I didn't catch this part but where does the MSC that is used to create MSAFE go?

It gets stripped of all value by the lucky mastercoin holders who can sell into the over-inflated and fixed fundraiser

I assume it doesn't disappear, and it can't be going back to the maidsafe guys because why then why would they even need a large MSC loan?  They can just keep reusing the same MSC.

Good point I presume it was a part of the con to trick him into this stupid arrangement, and to convince him he was likely to raise more Bitcoin than value stripped Mastercoin.

so if you are wrong and the Maidsafe people are pleased with the outcome, can we see a video of you eating your socks for dinner?

It's clear I think to anyone not invested in Mastercoin or greed relating this IPO I'm right, I will eat my socks if you do to but I hope it doesn't come to that, Maidsafe looks like a really interesting project and I hope the team realize what's really going on fast!

[sixteendigits]

Wait, can anyone who is familiar with MSC confirm this?  Is this how MSC works?

I work for the Mastercoin Foundation.  This is how it works.

So everytime there is a large asset issuance on MSC, an ungodly amount of MSC needs to be acquired?  

Only if the ratio between BTC and the new token is intended to stay fixed during the crowdsale (independent of market fluctuations.)  The protocol functions as a fixed ratio of MSC to the new token.  Adding the extra BTC step is where it becomes more complicated.

And I guess I didn't catch this part but where does the MSC that is used to create MSAFE go?  I assume it doesn't disappear, and it can't be going back to the maidsafe guys because why then why would they even need a large MSC loan?  They can just keep reusing the same MSC.

And they don’t.  In this case, the loaned MSC is being used by the protocol to generate token for purchasers who use BTC.  Those MSC get returned to the loaner once the crowdsale completes, and the BTC stays in the hands of the party running the Crowdsale (in this case, MaidSafe).

The more I know about MSC, the more I become a believer that XCP will overtake it one day.  It may not have the marketing and funds that MSC has, but the fundamentals seem way more solid.  But I am not trying to turn this into a discussion on XCP.  Not that that should stop you from immediately running out to buy a few hundred, or thousand, whatever floats your boat

That’s your prerogative.  We have nothing against the Counterparty guys, and wish them the best in their project.  We share best-practices and help one another avoid pitfalls.  We have open communication between the developers of both projects.

Do you have something against an automated token generation mechanism that takes one token as input and spits out another token(s) in return?  That seems like a genuinely simple way to perform a Crowdsale of a new token, which is what we have implemented.

Craig

I'm not really hating, just trying to understand.  Just gotta use any opportunity to mention XCP, as I am one of the first burners, gotta root for the home team!

Ok, I get that the MSC is gonna be returned to the loaners.  I get that a MSC generates so many of an asset at a fixed rate.

What I am not understanding, is what happens to the MSC used to create MSAFE after it is sent off to the exodus address, and before the crowdsale ends and it is returned to the loaner?  Does the blockchain just give it a warm hug and hold onto it for a fixed period of time?

I'm asking, if I wanted to sell 1000 DRAGON DILDOS using the MSC protocol, I can create an asset called DRAGON DILDOS, set the rate at 1 MSC=1000 DRAGON DILDOS and limit the asset to a total of 1000 DRAGON DILDOS, send 1 MSC to the DRAGON DILDO exodus address, receive my 1000 DRAGON DILDOS, and then my 1 MSC...........take it from here, what happens to that 1 MSC after this point?  I guess I am asking where does the MSC go, how long is it there, who has it, and where does it eventually end up.

This is a serious question but I did abuse this opportunity to type DRAGON DILDOS in all caps as many times as I could.

[Chang Hum]

This whole ideas so floored it's satirical, The IPO will be cancelled before 1 day and 17 hours or I'll lose all faith in human nature.

So everytime there is a large asset issuance on MSC, an ungodly amount of MSC needs to be acquired?  

and the price fixing will work so well with two assets at the same time  

And I guess I didn't catch this part but where does the MSC that is used to create MSAFE go?

It gets stripped of all value by the lucky mastercoin holders who can sell into the over-inflated and fixed fundraiser

I assume it doesn't disappear, and it can't be going back to the maidsafe guys because why then why would they even need a large MSC loan?  They can just keep reusing the same MSC.

Good point I presume it was a part of the con to trick him into this stupid arrangement, and to convince him he was likely to raise more Bitcoin than value stripped Mastercoin.

Chang, I hate to say it, but you’re missing an important point.  You are assuming malintent by at least one of the parties, when there is none.  No one is trying to out-game the market or anything of the sort.  MaidSafe wishes to raise money in a crowdsale of their tokens.  They have a target amount they wish to raise.  Mastercoin has a method to generate tokens based on the amount contributed.  Combine these two and you have a simple mechanism to do so.  No malintent.

If we wanted to make the price of MSC go to the moon, the loan wouldn’t have happened and all BTC buyers would’ve had to buy MSC at the market price.  Which would’ve kept going up and up (way beyond the 0.2 ratio).  This would’ve allowed for all of the nefarious actions you portend.  The current method *avoids* that.  

We’re trying to be good guys doing good things, and people keep claiming we’re doing the opposite.  If you don’t understand something, ask.  Everything we do is public and open-source.  If you don’t like a method, come in and provide a better one - we’ll take it.  Start believing that people are working to do the right thing with the tools available and the world becomes a much nicer place.

Craig

OK, well I guess I'm just betting the outcome of this is a disaster for Maidsafe and Very good for master coin holders. Let's hope I'm wrong I've argued my points more than enough already let's just wait and see.

[udecker]

Do you have something against an automated token generation mechanism that takes one token as input and spits out another token(s) in return?  That seems like a genuinely simple way to perform a Crowdsale of a new token, which is what we have implemented.

Craig

I'm not really hating, just trying to understand.  Just gotta use any opportunity to mention XCP, as I am one of the first burners, gotta root for the home team!

Ok, I get that the MSC is gonna be returned to the loaners.  I get that a MSC generates so many of an asset at a fixed rate.

What I am not understanding, is what happens to the MSC used to create MSAFE after it is sent off to the exodus address, and before the crowdsale ends and it is returned to the loaner?  Does the blockchain just give it a warm hug and hold onto it for a fixed period of time?

I'm asking, if I wanted to sell 1000 DRAGON DILDOS using the MSC protocol, I can create an asset called DRAGON DILDOS, set the rate at 1 MSC=1000 DRAGON DILDOS and limit the asset to a total of 1000 DRAGON DILDOS, send 1 MSC to the DRAGON DILDO exodus address, receive my 1000 DRAGON DILDOS, and then my 1 MSC...........take it from here, what happens to that 1 MSC after this point?  I guess I am asking where does the MSC go, how long is it there, who has it, and where does it eventually end up.

This is a serious question but I did abuse this opportunity to type DRAGON DILDOS in all caps as many times as I could.

In this example, you are the one holding the crowdsale.  You wish to sell 1000 DRAGON DILDOS for each 1 MSC you recieve in your crowdsale.  You’d announce these terms to the blockchain (using MP tx51) with those attriubtes.  A buyer would send 1MSC to the DILDOEXODUS address.  The buyer would receive 1000 DILDO and the Crowdsale address would receive 1 MSC. 

You get to keep that 1 MSC, since you’re the one who sold the DRAGON DILDOS.

Craig

[udecker]

This is a serious question but I did abuse this opportunity to type DRAGON DILDOS in all caps as many times as I could.

The actual transaction (in JSON format) would look something like this:

Code:

{
"transaction_type": 51,
"ecosystem": 2,
"property_type": 2,
"previous_property_id": 0,
"property_category": "Dildos",
"property_subcategory": "For Dragons",
"property_name": "DRAGON DILDOS (DILDO)",
"property_url": "https://ilikedragondildos.com/",
"property_data": "For dragons who like dildos specially made for dragons",
"currency_identifier_desired": 2,
"number_properties": 1000,
"deadline": 1397869200,
"earlybird_bonus": 0,
"percentage_for_issuer": 0,
"transaction_from": "<yourpublickey>",
"from_private_key": "<yourprivatekey>”
}

[sixteendigits]

Do you have something against an automated token generation mechanism that takes one token as input and spits out another token(s) in return?  That seems like a genuinely simple way to perform a Crowdsale of a new token, which is what we have implemented.

Craig

I'm not really hating, just trying to understand.  Just gotta use any opportunity to mention XCP, as I am one of the first burners, gotta root for the home team!

Ok, I get that the MSC is gonna be returned to the loaners.  I get that a MSC generates so many of an asset at a fixed rate.

What I am not understanding, is what happens to the MSC used to create MSAFE after it is sent off to the exodus address, and before the crowdsale ends and it is returned to the loaner?  Does the blockchain just give it a warm hug and hold onto it for a fixed period of time?

I'm asking, if I wanted to sell 1000 DRAGON DILDOS using the MSC protocol, I can create an asset called DRAGON DILDOS, set the rate at 1 MSC=1000 DRAGON DILDOS and limit the asset to a total of 1000 DRAGON DILDOS, send 1 MSC to the DRAGON DILDO exodus address, receive my 1000 DRAGON DILDOS, and then my 1 MSC...........take it from here, what happens to that 1 MSC after this point?  I guess I am asking where does the MSC go, how long is it there, who has it, and where does it eventually end up.

This is a serious question but I did abuse this opportunity to type DRAGON DILDOS in all caps as many times as I could.

In this example, you are the one holding the crowdsale.  You wish to sell 1000 DRAGON DILDOS for each 1 MSC you recieve in your crowdsale.  You’d announce these terms to the blockchain (using MP tx51) with those attriubtes.  A buyer would send 1MSC to the DILDOEXODUS address.  The buyer would receive 1000 DILDO and the Crowdsale address would receive 1 MSC. 

You get to keep that 1 MSC, since you’re the one who sold the DRAGON DILDOS.

Craig

Ahhhhhhhh........................ok, now I get it.  So yes, if this were just an excuse to just pump MSC, the maidsafe guys wouldn't allow use of BTC at all.  They hold the BTC donations, they get to use the loaned MSC to create MSAFE, and get the MSC returned to them so they can return it to the foundation.

Ok, this sounds alot less scammy now.  Maybe you MSC guys are okay after all.

Feeling really good I was able to scoop up a whole lot of MSC at 0.1 about 12 hours ago now!

[Chang Hum]

Do you have something against an automated token generation mechanism that takes one token as input and spits out another token(s) in return?  That seems like a genuinely simple way to perform a Crowdsale of a new token, which is what we have implemented.

Craig

I'm not really hating, just trying to understand.  Just gotta use any opportunity to mention XCP, as I am one of the first burners, gotta root for the home team!

Ok, I get that the MSC is gonna be returned to the loaners.  I get that a MSC generates so many of an asset at a fixed rate.

What I am not understanding, is what happens to the MSC used to create MSAFE after it is sent off to the exodus address, and before the crowdsale ends and it is returned to the loaner?  Does the blockchain just give it a warm hug and hold onto it for a fixed period of time?

I'm asking, if I wanted to sell 1000 DRAGON DILDOS using the MSC protocol, I can create an asset called DRAGON DILDOS, set the rate at 1 MSC=1000 DRAGON DILDOS and limit the asset to a total of 1000 DRAGON DILDOS, send 1 MSC to the DRAGON DILDO exodus address, receive my 1000 DRAGON DILDOS, and then my 1 MSC...........take it from here, what happens to that 1 MSC after this point?  I guess I am asking where does the MSC go, how long is it there, who has it, and where does it eventually end up.

This is a serious question but I did abuse this opportunity to type DRAGON DILDOS in all caps as many times as I could.

In this example, you are the one holding the crowdsale.  You wish to sell 1000 DRAGON DILDOS for each 1 MSC you recieve in your crowdsale.  You’d announce these terms to the blockchain (using MP tx51) with those attriubtes.  A buyer would send 1MSC to the DILDOEXODUS address.  The buyer would receive 1000 DILDO and the Crowdsale address would receive 1 MSC. 

You get to keep that 1 MSC, since you’re the one who sold the DRAGON DILDOS.

Craig

Ahhhhhhhh........................ok, now I get it.  So yes, if this were just an excuse to just pump MSC, the maidsafe guys wouldn't allow use of BTC at all.  They hold the BTC donations, they get to use the loaned MSC to create MSAFE, and get the MSC returned to them so they can return it to the foundation.

Ok, this sounds alot less scammy now.  Maybe you MSC guys are okay after all.

Feeling really good I was able to scoop up a whole lot of MSC at 0.1 about 12 hours ago now!

As long as maidsafe don't agree with me that the whole thing makes no sense I may as well buy back in myself!

[clout]

can you guys at maidsafe explain how safecoin can appreciate in value if it is constantly being diluted through the por mining process?

[prophetx]

can you guys at maidsafe explain how safecoin can appreciate in value if it is constantly being diluted through the por mining process?

it's basically the same as with bitcoin.  bitcoin is being constantly diluted however the more people use the network, the more valuable it gets

[clout]

can you guys at maidsafe explain how safecoin can appreciate in value if it is constantly being diluted through the por mining process?

it's basically the same as with bitcoin.  bitcoin is being constantly diluted however the more people use the network, the more valuable it gets

its not like bitcoin. its a not a scarce resource. the more ppl connect to the network the more safecoin there are. you don't have to go on an exchange to buy safecoin. as long as the resources you offer the network are more than the resources you take from the network your use of the network is free.

[Panpan66L]

I had read the Whitepapers. This system is amazing! I will funding it!

[crimealone]

Backers will receive 17,000 MaidSafeCoins per bitcoin
Backers will receive 3,400 MaidSafeCoins per mastercoin---from  http://buysafecoins.com

This means 1msc=0.2btc,how did they decide the exchange rate?
As I know, 1msc=0.08btc before this released, why don't they let the market decide the rate?
I think this is a way to let the msc big holders to sell them msc high.
Maybe something deep inside the project.

price manipulation 2.0, featuring the mastercoin foundation

Just curious if you know something I don't or if this is FUD, because if you have further information on why I should avoid this IPO, I would greatly appreciate hearing it.

because the IPO is designed to pump mastercoin price and someone can simply fork maidsafe and the token system because it's open source?

Check maidsafe's new twitter. It becomes price manipulation 3.0.
This IPO is totally for MSC's pump!!!!

[prophetx]

can you guys at maidsafe explain how safecoin can appreciate in value if it is constantly being diluted through the por mining process?

it's basically the same as with bitcoin.  bitcoin is being constantly diluted however the more people use the network, the more valuable it gets

its not like bitcoin. its a not a scarce resource. the more ppl connect to the network the more safecoin there are. you don't have to go on an exchange to buy safecoin. as long as the resources you offer the network are more than the resources you take from the network your use of the network is free.

there is a limited number of safecoins.  that means it is scarce.

[RawDog]

As long as maidsafe don't agree with me that the whole thing makes no sense I may as well buy back in myself!

Holy shit!  You are a slow learner.  Did you want to give me an apology too?  ...now that you are back in. 

Listen, these MasterProtocol guys are REALLY careful and honest.  JR is about the most honest straightforward guy I 've met in Crypto.  He really cares to do things well.  Johnson is similarly a very straight shooter.  If you want to find a scam, don't bother looking here.  These guys are serious for the very long term.  They are building some complex shit.  Not perfect yet, but it will have some serious performance one day and today these smart properties are a little less than perfectly organized.  However, sham is not in their methodology. 

[RawDog]

I had read the Whitepapers. This system is amazing! I will funding it!

Yep, same for me.  It is an incredible idea.  Might take a few years to get running well, but is sure is cool.  I am all in.  I can't get any more cheap MSC to send, but I'll take anything less than .2 to buy in deeper.

[Chang Hum]

As long as maidsafe don't agree with me that the whole thing makes no sense I may as well buy back in myself!

Holy shit!  You are a slow learner.  Did you want to give me an apology too?  ...now that you are back in. 

Listen, these MasterProtocol guys are REALLY careful and honest.  JR is about the most honest straightforward guy I 've met in Crypto.  He really cares to do things well.  Johnson is similarly a very straight shooter.  If you want to find a scam, don't bother looking here.  These guys are serious for the very long term.  They are building some complex shit.  Not perfect yet, but it will have some serious performance one day and today these smart properties are a little less than perfectly organized.  However, sham is not in their methodology. 

No why would I you're a fucking retard, only read first line can imagine the rest

[Sharecoin11234]

WHY NOT IN A POS MODEL?