[Ann] Safecoin maidsafecoin

[crazy_rabbit]

I click "send" (near my MSC balance), then I verify the address, fulfill Amount, Fee, and To, and click "Prepare". It says: "Not enough bitcoin funds on addresses" which is false (I should have enough bitcoins to cover the fee, right?)

here the same...
 

Another guy said something about needing 0,015 BTC in his account in order to send MSC, I don't really know anything about how it works though.

Either way the MSC address is closed or in the process of being closed for donations, so even if you manage to send your transaction you'll just get it returned.

nick.lambert    
3:37 PM (21 minutes ago)


The crowd sale is now closed to MSC, still open for BTC @ 1KHfLixa2idRnZXMUfEisBati1vpywaH6E
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Nick Lambert
www.maidsafe.net
Twitter: @maidsafe

Might be time to try cash out of MSC, but I'd wait for David Irvine's official response that he posted about first..

Nice fake quote newbie. Tits or GTFO.

It's not a fake quote, but it's not from here, it's from the Google forum thread linked earlier in this discussion. Maybe I should have specified that, but you on the other hand could've just asked me where the quote was from instead of being rude.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/maidsafe-development/9QTj0d2pGPo/YsftjmZs8EMJ

My apologies, i let my frustration with users with low posts making quotes that can very dramatically alter the outcome of projects get ahead of me. I should have asked. Sorry!

[inBitweTrust]

I doubt there would be any drastic changes to the crowdfunding rules , because that would literally mean the death of the project before it even gets started

Agreed, but unless there is further clarification there seems to be good evidence that drastic changes did indeed happen without notice causing losses for individuals who trusted the original fundraising framework. This could effectively kill maidsafe and raise some questions about mastercoins involvement.

[RawDog]

I don't see how they can't break the deal to be honest. I would appreciate them sticking to their terms, (and might argue loudly for it) but how to iron things out so that people won't feel tricked is going to be difficult.

Not difficult.  They announced the rules.  Those rules were available for all to see and understand.  They must stick to those terms.  They cannot change the terms in a material way which cause severe losses to those who relied upon the stated rules.  I too will argue quite loudly.  

Now everyone can understand the function of regulation.  Regulation would put in place the conditions which prevent those raising funds from changing the rules midstream - causing losses for many.  

David can't just unilaterally declare the previously promised .2 invalid.  This is complete nonsense.  He will learn a very hard lesson if he doesn't (within 24 hours) withdraw that change to the scheme which was widely advertised and promoted all last week.

So this is an argument which wants a group of people who have equally invested to be given less - to be disadvantaged, for what...?  Why would you want that?  I can't see there being anything fucking 'wrong' that a decent person would object to if;
-nobody gets any less than promised
-btc investor reward is raised to be representatively fair
How could that not be the right way to go forward?

The rules were clearly stated in good time.  We didn't set those rules.  Whether they were 'fair' or 'unfair' according to you or others doesn't matter.  These were the rules set forth by MaidSafe.  These were the stated terms of the deal.  

Many people relied upon those stated rules.  That reliance upon the rules was proximate cause of the damaged suffered by those who relied upon the rules.  

You can see where this is going.  

What of it Irvine?  You want to comment about this?  

I doubt there would be any drastic changes to the crowdfunding rules , because that would literally mean the death of the project before it even gets started

The rules said: 17000 MaidSafe for 1BTC and 3400 MaidSafe for 1MSC; i.e. .2BTC/MSC.  This is why the MSC price rose and nearly reached .2 (as anyone would expect) in the days preceeding the sale.  Then, it was announced via google groups that they would not accept MSC and would not exchange MSC for 3400 MaidSafe in a clear contravenance of the rules stated.

Those who prepared themselves by relying upon the rules and buying MSC to participate in accordance with the stated scheme - were left holding a bag of tokens having severely diminished value - up to about 50%.  

Once you set the rules - you can't change them.  A deal is a deal.  Well, unless you are Scottish I suppose.  Then you can just move the goal post about as it suits you.

[RawDog]

I doubt there would be any drastic changes to the crowdfunding rules , because that would literally mean the death of the project before it even gets started

Agreed, but unless there is further clarification there seems to be good evidence that drastic changes did indeed happen without notice causing losses for individuals who trusted the original fundraising framework. This could effectively kill maidsafe and raise some questions about mastercoins involvement.

They will be forced to accept MSC at .2 for 30 days in agreement with their own rules.  I am pretty sure of that. 

If not, I suspect they will find themselves in a very difficult position indeed. 

My suggestion, go buy 'cheap' MSC now.  It will be worth .2 in a few days after Irvine realizes he can't just fix the rules as the deal is being executed.  The rules were set. 

[bitwhizz]

I doubt there would be any drastic changes to the crowdfunding rules , because that would literally mean the death of the project before it even gets started

Agreed, but unless there is further clarification there seems to be good evidence that drastic changes did indeed happen without notice causing losses for individuals who trusted the original fundraising framework. This could effectively kill maidsafe and raise some questions about mastercoins involvement.

They will be forced to accept MSC at .2 for 30 days in agreement with their own rules.  I am pretty sure of that. 

If not, I suspect they will find themselves in a very difficult position indeed. 

My suggestion, go buy 'cheap' MSC now.  It will be worth .2 in a few days after Irvine realizes he can't just fix the rules as the deal is being executed.  The rules were set. 

+1

[svk31]

My apologies, i let my frustration with users with low posts making quotes that can very dramatically alter the outcome of projects get ahead of me. I should have asked. Sorry!

Apology accepted

I realize it's a pretty frustrating afternoon for lots of people, I'm just glad all I'm losing at the moment is my productivity at work

[maidsafe]

dirvine’s reply:

Just an FYI for anyone looking for reliable info;
I messaged David Irvine about a concern I had and he's responded in this thread:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=577149.msg6338462#msg6338462

Still in fast mode so forgive typo's and grammar

Well what a morning! I cannot think of any other with so much drama and excitement. We started a little late as we had to wait on a certain block appearing on the blockchain to start the whole thing off. That was bad enough. Then we got the block and pushed go on the websites. 

We were all in the office ready to get involved and as soon as the site showed up some got in, others were stunned at the immediate influx of bitcoins. It was incredible, I had to go home to transfer mine, but was distracted for ages looking at the screen and wondering how all these people knew and how much belief there was. This seemed to hit home more than all the praise and good comments we get on line. This was peoples total belief and right there in front of me, surreal and very humbling.

We then seen the Mastercoin blockchain explode and this will initially amazing, then it was very fast. A mastercoin block explorer site showed the sale as sold out and that was then delight into shock.

This was due to the fact MSC holders just send to an issue address and MSAFE are automatically returned. BTC hodler though had to send to a BTC address where they are collected in the background and manually xferred to MSAFE. I was in shock, all those BTC inputs had not been processed, we are all shut out (all in the office to). That was not great.

I then was straight on to the Master protocol guys (also all nighter for them) and said is this all true, have we sold out in a couple of hours? We had not, in fact it was less than 50% (Still a huge amount).

Then I was outside thinking and thinking, what is happening this is too fast, the MSC holders are at great advantage and BTC supporters are going to be disadvantaged a lot. We cannot type quickly enough for this to even out. At this rate no BTC person will get in and they will miss out. We never seen this level of support coming.

I quite quickly decided that we would use all of the MSC loan fund we had been given for the sale and buy all the remaining MSAFE. Rather than manually doing a few steps in the background we would simply transfer the MSAFE to BTC holder on confirmation of any deposit. This removed a few steps. 

We debated, is this fair, is everyone included etc. and realised, what about the bonus, the 40% sliding bonus for everyone, we cannot manually calculate that, it would be a nightmare. Then it came together, we buy all remaining MSAFE with the loan fund and everyone gets the bonus, regardless of when they get in. Then we are all in the same boat, the faster MSC people and the BTC people. It means we raise less, but more importantly for us it means the system level out and we are all on the same playing field. People know me and me search for equilibrium the whole time.

This is what we have done, it reduces the back office steps, ensures BTC backers are looked after and not squeezed out. MSC backers got in at almost equal footing as BTC (almost 50% / 50%) and we all win. The BTC goes ahead and the MSC people got in fast and made their purchase.

This is now amazing as BTC is pushing along nicely and people can be assured the panic is over and the sale is as fair as it can be. Many would argue MSC is not 50% of the coin base etc. but I think none of us realised how fast and furious this sale would be. It is unbelievable.

It means SAFE can go on strongly now, we can fund core dev, create Builders (the 10% dev pool part is unlikely to be allocated, instead the network will allocate these safecoin to Builders who produce apps people use etc.). The developer pods across the world who will compete with MaidSafe on core dev can be established and the network seeded. This is a pivotal moment for us all.

I hope all of you were as taken aback as we were, but not as shocked at trying to figure out a mechanism to include everyone. 

So please bitcoin backers, take comfort, your orders are being processed and will be fine now. We did panic with the false reporting of a site etc. but it was a good warning, we need to make sure everyone is equally treated and looked after. So now we all get to become involved, we all get the ~40% bonus and many many more people and supporters are part of this project.

Thanks everyone and sorry for the frantic start, I hope it is calmer now and continues on it's strong footing.

We will publish the number of MSAFE remaining on safecoin.io and you will see this one the blockchain in our backers holding account (address to be published) on the blockchain. This will be simpler now and I must say again thanks to the Master Protocol team, they were just amazing and Craig Sellars in particular is a guy you want beside you when things move at this speed.

So BTC all the way now, until we post the sale is over on safecoin.io, at that time any BTC will be refunded back to the sending address.

Thanks again everyone, it's a pleasure to be part of this community, I cannot wait to get back to work though and get the network up and testnet 1 running.

[ewibit]

They will be forced to accept MSC at .2 for 30 days in agreement with their own rules.  I am pretty sure of that. 

If not, I suspect they will find themselves in a very difficult position indeed. 

My suggestion, go buy 'cheap' MSC now.  It will be worth .2 in a few days after Irvine realizes he can't just fix the rules as the deal is being executed.  The rules were set. 

...

[baddw]

I don't see how they can't break the deal to be honest. I would appreciate them sticking to their terms, (and might argue loudly for it) but how to iron things out so that people won't feel tricked is going to be difficult.

Not difficult.  They announced the rules.  Those rules were available for all to see and understand.  They must stick to those terms.  They cannot change the terms in a material way which cause severe losses to those who relied upon the stated rules.  I too will argue quite loudly.  

Now everyone can understand the function of regulation.  Regulation would put in place the conditions which prevent those raising funds from changing the rules midstream - causing losses for many.  

David can't just unilaterally declare the previously promised .2 invalid.  This is complete nonsense.  He will learn a very hard lesson if he doesn't (within 24 hours) withdraw that change to the scheme which was widely advertised and promoted all last week.

So this is an argument which wants a group of people who have equally invested to be given less - to be disadvantaged, for what...?  Why would you want that?  I can't see there being anything fucking 'wrong' that a decent person would object to if;
-nobody gets any less than promised
-btc investor reward is raised to be representatively fair
How could that not be the right way to go forward?

"Representatively fair"?  The implied exchange rate between MSC and BTC was very clear.  If you can't do the math, it's your own fault.

I feel bad for MSC buyers who got stuck with them.  They are the ones who got screwed here.

Fortunately, I did not partake in this little charade, but now I understand why the AngelShares/BitShares fundraiser/IPO was so convoluted, with a set amount sold per day in an "auction" format.  It may have been hard to understand at the time, but now I see the wisdom of it.

[bitwhizz]

David isn;t seriously impying that all of this is 'OK' becouse everyone gets a 40 % bonus,
when the funds will probably all be collected in less than a week
I am not investing in this if the people who run this lets this kind of bullshit fly
Yep i think i will give this one a miss

[svk31]

Here's the link to the thread Irvine started with the post quoted by maidsafe for those wondering where it is:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/maidsafe-development/vkr5mty4k4s

[inBitweTrust]

dirvine’s reply:

This is what we have done, it reduces the back office steps, ensures BTC backers are looked after and not squeezed out. MSC backers got in at almost equal footing as BTC (almost 50% / 50%) and we all win. The BTC goes ahead and the MSC people got in fast and made their purchase.

What makes you think it is fair to change the rules after the fact because the fundraising wasn't in accordance to your expectations?

Did you ever set a hard cap on the percentage of MSC vs BTC allowed to invest in the 10% stake beforehand or can we all safely assume that you modified the fundraising rules after the fact out of a sense of justice to those ignorant BTC investors who couldn't do the math and didn't realize they should swap their BTC for MSC beforehand?

[toast]

"Representatively fair"?  The implied exchange rate between MSC and BTC was very clear.  If you can't do the math, it's your own fault.

I feel bad for MSC buyers who got stuck with them.  They are the ones who got screwed here.

Fortunately, I did not partake in this little charade, but now I understand why the AngelShares/BitShares fundraiser/IPO was so convoluted, with a set amount sold per day in an "auction" format.  It may have been hard to understand at the time, but now I see the wisdom of it.

+1... warned and ignored.

[liondani]

dirvine’s reply:


I quite quickly decided that we would use all of the MSC loan fund we had been given for the sale and buy all the remaining MSAFE. Rather than manually doing a few steps in the background we would simply transfer the MSAFE to BTC holder on confirmation of any deposit. This removed a few steps. 

lol, nobody said that it exist a cap of buying maidsafe coins with mastercoin!!! Only that the sale event will run until ten percent of all safecoins (429,496,729) are sold or 30 days have passed...
All mastercoin buyers that could not use MSCs even when only  BTCs was accepted (of course because 429,496,729 coins was not reached) are SCAMMED ! "I quite quickly decided" to change the rules and steal money from MSC buyers to give them somewhere else !!!!

http://www.safecoin.io/
"It is also possible to buy safecoin and buyers anywhere in the world will be given the opportunity to do so during an up and coming crowd-sale. The sale event will run until ten percent of all safecoins (429,496,729) are sold or 30 days have passed, which ever happens first. safecoin will be made available to buyers through a proxy token, MaidSafeCoin. Once the MaidSafe network goes live, the MaidSafeCoins will be redeemable for the network’s native safecoins at a 1-to-1 ratio."

[dirvine]

I click "send" (near my MSC balance), then I verify the address, fulfill Amount, Fee, and To, and click "Prepare". It says: "Not enough bitcoin funds on addresses" which is false (I should have enough bitcoins to cover the fee, right?)

here the same...
 

Another guy said something about needing 0,015 BTC in his account in order to send MSC, I don't really know anything about how it works though.

Either way the MSC address is closed or in the process of being closed for donations, so even if you manage to send your transaction you'll just get it returned.

nick.lambert    
3:37 PM (21 minutes ago)


The crowd sale is now closed to MSC, still open for BTC @ 1KHfLixa2idRnZXMUfEisBati1vpywaH6E
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Nick Lambert
www.maidsafe.net
Twitter: @maidsafe

Might be time to try cash out of MSC, but I'd wait for David Irvine's official response that he posted about first..

Still in fast mode so forgive typo's and grammar

Well what a morning! I cannot think of any other with so much drama and excitement. We started a little late as we had to wait on a certain block appearing on the blockchain to start the whole thing off. That was bad enough. Then we got the block and pushed go on the websites. 

We were all in the office ready to get involved and as soon as the site showed up some got in, others were stunned at the immediate influx of bitcoins. It was incredible, I had to go home to transfer mine, but was distracted for ages looking at the screen and wondering how all these people knew and how much belief there was. This seemed to hit home more than all the praise and good comments we get on line. This was peoples total belief and right there in front of me, surreal and very humbling.

We then seen the Mastercoin blockchain explode and this will initially amazing, then it was very fast. A mastercoin block explorer site showed the sale as sold out and that was then delight into shock.

This was due to the fact MSC holders just send to an issue address and MSAFE are automatically returned. BTC hodler though had to send to a BTC address where they are collected in the background and manually xferred to MSAFE. I was in shock, all those BTC inputs had not been processed, we are all shut out (all in the office to). That was not great.

I then was straight on to the Master protocol guys (also all nighter for them) and said is this all true, have we sold out in a couple of hours? We had not, in fact it was less than 50% (Still a huge amount).

Then I was outside thinking and thinking, what is happening this is too fast, the MSC holders are at great advantage and BTC supporters are going to be disadvantaged a lot. We cannot type quickly enough for this to even out. At this rate no BTC person will get in and they will miss out. We never seen this level of support coming.

I quite quickly decided that we would use all of the MSC loan fund we had been given for the sale and buy all the remaining MSAFE. Rather than manually doing a few steps in the background we would simply transfer the MSAFE to BTC holder on confirmation of any deposit. This removed a few steps. 

We debated, is this fair, is everyone included etc. and realised, what about the bonus, the 40% sliding bonus for everyone, we cannot manually calculate that, it would be a nightmare. Then it came together, we buy all remaining MSAFE with the loan fund and everyone gets the bonus, regardless of when they get in. Then we are all in the same boat, the faster MSC people and the BTC people. It means we raise less, but more importantly for us it means the system level out and we are all on the same playing field. People know me and me search for equilibrium the whole time.

This is what we have done, it reduces the back office steps, ensures BTC backers are looked after and not squeezed out. MSC backers got in at almost equal footing as BTC (almost 50% / 50%) and we all win. The BTC goes ahead and the MSC people got in fast and made their purchase.

This is now amazing as BTC is pushing along nicely and people can be assured the panic is over and the sale is as fair as it can be. Many would argue MSC is not 50% of the coin base etc. but I think none of us realised how fast and furious this sale would be. It is unbelievable.

It means SAFE can go on strongly now, we can fund core dev, create Builders (the 10% dev pool part is unlikely to be allocated, instead the network will allocate these safecoin to Builders who produce apps people use etc.). The developer pods across the world who will compete with MaidSafe on core dev can be established and the network seeded. This is a pivotal moment for us all.

I hope all of you were as taken aback as we were, but not as shocked at trying to figure out a mechanism to include everyone. 

So please bitcoin backers, take comfort, your orders are being processed and will be fine now. We did panic with the false reporting of a site etc. but it was a good warning, we need to make sure everyone is equally treated and looked after. So now we all get to become involved, we all get the ~40% bonus and many many more people and supporters are part of this project.

Thanks everyone and sorry for the frantic start, I hope it is calmer now and continues on it's strong footing.

We will publish the number of MSAFE remaining on safecoin.io and you will see this one the blockchain in our backers holding account (address to be published) on the blockchain. This will be simpler now and I must say again thanks to the Master Protocol team, they were just amazing and Craig Sellars in particular is a guy you want beside you when things move at this speed.

So BTC all the way now, until we post the sale is over on safecoin.io, at that time any BTC will be refunded back to the sending address.

Thanks again everyone, it's a pleasure to be part of this community, I cannot wait to get back to work though and get the network up and testnet 1 running.

David Irvine

[liondani]

"...but now I understand why the AngelShares/BitShares fundraiser/IPO was so convoluted, with a set amount sold per day in an "auction" format.  It may have been hard to understand at the time, but now I see the wisdom of it.

Hope David Irvine will take at least some advices from Dan Larimer (bitshares founder).It is never to late...
Investors would have more confidence if in some way they cooperate to  bailout their IPO in a succesfull way.
At least I would personaly believe more on the safecoin project, knowing that some real experts, that understand economics better, are behind it.

[svk31]

dirvine’s reply:

Just an FYI for anyone looking for reliable info;
I messaged David Irvine about a concern I had and he's responded in this thread:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=577149.msg6338462#msg6338462

....

We then seen the Mastercoin blockchain explode and this will initially amazing, then it was very fast. A mastercoin block explorer site showed the sale as sold out and that was then delight into shock.

This was due to the fact MSC holders just send to an issue address and MSAFE are automatically returned. BTC hodler though had to send to a BTC address where they are collected in the background and manually xferred to MSAFE. I was in shock, all those BTC inputs had not been processed, we are all shut out (all in the office to). That was not great.

I then was straight on to the Master protocol guys (also all nighter for them) and said is this all true, have we sold out in a couple of hours? We had not, in fact it was less than 50% (Still a huge amount).

....

What's a bit strange about this is that the Mastercoin donations "exploded" thanks to several huge donations from what I suppose are Mastercoin founders. Someone donated 9176 MSC for example, another one 8624. Those guys are working closely with Maidsafe to enable this fundraiser, you might think they would warn them that their assumption of 10% of donations via MSC was likely to be way off, especially considering the steep discount on Safecoins via MSC compared to BTC.

10 adresses donated 83% of the total 93892. There's a donation of 25000 in there, maybe that's Maidsafe themselves buying up the rest of the coins as explained by David Irvine? If not that's one big whale.. It happened 1.5 hours before the final donation though.

I'm not quite sure what to make of this mess.

[liondani]

from   https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/maidsafe-development/vkr5mty4k4s


connorc...@gmail.com    
6:56 PM (17 minutes ago)


I think you guys should offer an official apology to the people on the wrong end of this decision you made. I understand you had your reasons, but this really screwed me and many other people over. On your site you said that the sale would run for a month, and that BTC and MSC would be accepted for that time.

Knowing that the MSC -> MaidSafeCoin conversion ratio allowed us to get a sort of discount on the sale, I and many others converted BTC to MSC in the past couple days, getting ready for the sale. Most of us paid at a ratio of around 0.15 BTC/MSC, thinking that we'd buy MaidSafeCoin at 0.2 BTC/MSC (as per your stated rules). Now, I go to check the safecoin sale THE DAY OF THE SALE, and Mastercoin transactions have been closed, and MSC is back to 0.1 BTC/MSC. I could convert back to BTC and buy MaidSafeCoin, but I've just lost a 3rd of my money in this price fluctuation, which was caused by your decision to shut down MSC sales.

I think you owe SOMETHING to people who had been excited and intending to invest in your company, and who you [inadvertently] jipped out of 1/3rd of their investment.

I would expect a company dependent on the kind of public goodwill which makes this kind of thing possible, to return the favor in some form.

On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:01:13 AM UTC-6, David Irvine wrote:
- show quoted text -


John Kypri    
7:09 PM (4 minutes ago)


If you expect to get anything for your mastercoin change them fast the current price doesn't reflect liquidity. I don't give a fuck about mine, I know they've got no inherrent value so why be a cunt like these scum and sell them on. Hard lesson in greed! Samsung laptop stuck on ins.. really annoying pressed ins doesn't do anything, possible shit windows 8? any suggestions would be appreciated.
- show quoted text -
 


connorc...@gmail.com    
7:09 PM (3 minutes ago)


The easiest thing your organization could do to fix this is to simply follow your originally stated plan for the crowdsale, and accept MSC for the amount of MaidSafeCoins previously stated. Or do you want to be known as an organization that so easily can go against your word (which heavily affects your investors financially)?
If you get more MSC than you bargained for, why not just sell the extra you have for BTC? That is the fairest way to run this funding project, by sticking to your previous agreement with previous investors.

If you hope to ever have another crowdfunding event like this, it's going to be hard for future investors not to hear about this first.

[luffy]

what if the  wallet that we sent the BTC payment shows many BTC adresses as sending?
mine shows 4 BTC addresses as sending , in which address the safecoins will be sent to?
i see others as well

[financial_analyst]

best strategy is to wait until the price in the secondary market drops by 90-95% after some weeks as with counterparty.